#1
General consensus would imply he's probably the greatest musician of all time. So what actually went on inside his head? Was it just an immaculate perception of harmony and theory in general or was there more to it?

I figured that I may as well try to emulate him before existing guitarists, so where would be the best place to start? Keeping the limitations of guitar in mind.
lol guitar
#3
Learn theory and technique?
Quote by Dirtydeeds468
Holy Crap.

I love you more than life itself.
#4
He was also influenced by a lot of people before him: Mozart, Haydn, J.S. Bach, Handel etc.

You'll find bits of their styles in his, and it may be easier to understand his music by studying theirs too.
#5
Quote by blue_strat

Counterpoint, yes. Almost all classical composers knew and used counterpoint in some way.

Gradus ad Parnassum, no. You're better off with something like Felix Salzer's Counterpoint in Composition, which actually analyses some of Beethoven's works from a contrapuntal point of view. Gradus Ad Parnassum only covers counterpoint from a strict species style, strict counterpoint went out of style in the early 1600s.

Also, learn about thematic development and classical melody techniques.
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#7
@catempire: Theory is probably more important than technique in this case, considering the difference from Beethoven and his old school piano to me and my electric guitar.

@blue_strat: Funny you posted that because I'm actually reading up on counterpoint at the moment. What would be better though? Studying modern harmony and applying it to that era or crude counterpoint?

I'm only becoming aware of the difference haha, but I feel like I need to find ground zero and build from there, so please keep posting links.
lol guitar
#8
^I know my suggestion wasn't all that helpful. It is a very high bar you have set yourself though. It seems like you want to play neo-classical though, and obviously that takes some chops. Do you like those kinds of guitarists?

EDIT: Do you have any experience in normal classical guitar? I think it would be as good a starting point as any.
Quote by Dirtydeeds468
Holy Crap.

I love you more than life itself.
Last edited by catempire at Jul 30, 2010,
#9
Quote by catempire
^I know my suggestion wasn't all that helpful. It is a very high bar you have set yourself though. It seems like you want to play neo-classical though, and obviously that takes some chops. Do you like those kinds of guitarists?

EDIT: Do you have any experience in normal classical guitar? I think it would be as good a starting point as any.


Kind of a hard question to answer, I've never been trained classically and it's hard to define what parts of my playing fit the context. I won't bother going into my musical life story, but I'm kind of a blank template, I haven't learned a tab in ages nor was it really habitual and I'm having a break from playing in bands. My comfort zone is metal and I listen to a fair amount of 'neo-classical' guitarists.

It's the classical composition that enthralls me. Nothing sounds out of place.
lol guitar
#11
Go straight to the music. Study and listen to his music.

Learn as many Beethoven works as you can and try to arrange them on the guitar yourself. This will not be a simple task but if you work at it you should get better at it and, one would expect, develop a deeper understanding for his music.

It might also benefit you to use any knowledge of theory you have to form or even write an analysis of some of your favourite Beethoven works. Then see if you can find any other books or writings that analyze Beethoven's efforts that might give you fresh perspective and ideas you may not have considered.

And you're right Beethoven is the pinnacle of musical mastery.

Here is his sheet music which you might find useful- http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Beethoven,_Ludwig_van

Best of Luck.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Jul 30, 2010,
#12
Quote by Serpentarius
General consensus would imply he's probably the greatest musician of all time. So what actually went on inside his head? Was it just an immaculate perception of harmony and theory in general or was there more to it?

I figured that I may as well try to emulate him before existing guitarists, so where would be the best place to start? Keeping the limitations of guitar in mind.


I heard once that Beethoven would abruptly wake up at night because the melodies in his dreams were so loud it drove him crazy, and he wouldn't be able to get back to sleep unless he played those melodies on his piano...so I guess if you want to be as great as Beethoven you should be a prodigy and learn how to hear loudly. Also, Beethoven knew no theory since he (along with other legends like Mozart/Bach) basically invented it...so I speculate that having a great ear is better than knowing a lot of theory
#13
Quote by justaramsfan
I heard once that Beethoven would abruptly wake up at night because the melodies in his dreams were so loud it drove him crazy, and he wouldn't be able to get back to sleep unless he played those melodies on his piano...so I guess if you want to be as great as Beethoven you should be a prodigy and learn how to hear loudly. Also, Beethoven knew no theory since he (along with other legends like Mozart/Bach) basically invented it...so I speculate that having a great ear is better than knowing a lot of theory


Fail post has failed.
Seriously? Having a great ear? Beethoven was deaf dude
#14
Quote by Lord_Hondros
Fail post has failed.
Seriously? Having a great ear? Beethoven was deaf dude


Not all his life.
#15
Quote by justaramsfan
Also, Beethoven knew no theory since he (along with other legends like Mozart/Bach) basically invented it...so I speculate that having a great ear is better than knowing a lot of theory


Highly incorrect.

I can't even be bothered explaining all the many ways this is incorrect. Maybe you should do some study of musical history.
#16
Quote by LucasGtrGod
Highly incorrect.

I can't even be bothered explaining all the many ways this is incorrect. Maybe you should do some study of musical history.

wikipedia.com/musicalstuff
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#17
Quote by 20Tigers
And you're right Beethoven is the pinnacle of musical mastery. .

Depends on what you're talking about. Bach is more influential in regards to harmony and Wagner is more influential in regards to melody. Beethoven is pretty influential in regards to musical form though.
Quote by 20Tigers
Learn as many Beethoven works as you can and try to arrange them on the guitar yourself.
It takes a little more than just learning and arranging classical songs to learn how to write using classical techniques.
Quote by 20Tigers
It might also benefit you to use any knowledge of theory you have to form or even write an analysis
The theory he'd need to analyse Beethoven's work is most likely not something he has (sorry TS, I honestly don't mean to offend). Analysing Beethoven's work is something you might do for your end of year mark at a good music conservatory.
Quote by justaramsfan
I heard once that Beethoven would abruptly wake up at night because the melodies in his dreams were so loud it drove him crazy,
Although Beethoven's melodies are beautiful, it's not specifically why he's remembered and revered in academic circles. He was quite mad though (read his biography, full of lulz), at least as the theories go. Many music historians believe he suffered from severe clinical depression.
Quote by justaramsfan
I guess if you want to be as great as Beethoven you should be a prodigy
Be a prodigy? Be a prodigy! Ah, I guess it's simple then. Off to become a prodigy. Wait... how do?
Quote by justaramsfan
Beethoven knew no theory since he (along with other legends like Mozart/Bach) basically invented it
I'm curious, what exactly in music theory do you think Beethoven "invented"?

I personally believe we are all products of our pasts, including Beethoven. What he knew didn't come from no where and thus had to come from somewhere. That somewhere was the theory (it's not really theory as you know it, but this word seems the most appropriate) of his time, and he knew a shit load of it. He studied with Johann Albrechtsberger and Joseph Haydn, just like Mozart did. He, like every other classical composer, definitely knew their stuff. Back then, a mentality like "musicians don't need theory" or equating theory/technique with a loss of creativity would get you laughed at. Learning compositional techniques, to them, was just as important as it was for a painter to handle his brush.

It's surprising how much "art" has changed in the past few hundred years.
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#18
Quote by demonofthenight
Depends on what you're talking about.
I was talking about my opinion

Quote by demonofthenight
It takes a little more than just learning and arranging classical songs to learn how to write using classical techniques.The theory he'd need to analyse Beethoven's work is most likely not something he has (sorry TS, I honestly don't mean to offend). Analysing Beethoven's work is something you might do for your end of year mark at a good music conservatory.

Perhaps it does but the best place to start would be the music itself.

The theory he'd need to analyze Beethoven's work for a university review is one thing but he can look listen learn and think about Beethoven's work. By asking himself questions about what he sees he can theorize as to what HE thinks makes the music so good and it can be helpful he doesn't need a heap of theory just the basics as he's not doing it for publication but for his own development and personal appreciation - you DON'T need a university degree for that.
Si
#19
Quote by demonofthenight
Be a prodigy? Be a prodigy! Ah, I guess it's simple then. Off to become a prodigy. Wait... how do?

That was just a joke really
Quote by demonofthenight
I'm curious, what exactly in music theory do you think Beethoven "invented"?

Well, he's credited with giving birth to the Romantic Period in music
Quote by demonofthenight
I personally believe we are all products of our pasts, including Beethoven. What he knew didn't come from no where and thus had to come from somewhere. That somewhere was the theory (it's not really theory as you know it, but this word seems the most appropriate) of his time, and he knew a shit load of it. He studied with Johann Albrechtsberger and Joseph Haydn, just like Mozart did. He, like every other classical composer, definitely knew their stuff. Back then, a mentality like "musicians don't need theory" or equating theory/technique with a loss of creativity would get you laughed at. Learning compositional techniques, to them, was just as important as it was for a painter to handle his brush.
It's surprising how much "art" has changed in the past few hundred years.

I think this is where we're on a different tangent...I didn't expect anyone to interpret my post as saying Beethoven didn't know any music, that would just be silly. I was just saying that our definition of music theory today didn't exist back then, so guys like Beethoven/Bach didn't rely on the knowledge we have today...so music theory (that many people in this forum consider extremely important when writing music) wasn't the be all-end all of music, but that's just my opinion. I like the way you phrased your post though, it was pretty easy/concise to read
#20
Quote by justaramsfan
I was just saying that our definition of music theory today didn't exist back then, so guys like Beethoven/Bach didn't rely on the knowledge we have today
Interesting thought, but the books and theories Beethoven and Bach studied are still around today. You just have to know where to look for them. The knowledge still exists.
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