Page 1 of 5
#1
About a week ago I received a letter from the department of defense, who were conducting a survey from active duty military personel. The survey asked what I- as an enlisted military dude- thought of about a possible change in the current policy of gays in the military. Sure, I've given the subject some thought here and there, but never have I actually got into the nitty gritty of this controversial subject.

I thought for a couple hours debating either outcome. This is my thought-

I am an infantry marine. My job in the military is not to sit at a desk in an air conditioned building at some base, where having a homosexual coworker might not affect me. My job in the infantry is to, for lack of better words, go to war and pull the trigger. The guys in my platoon are more my family than my immediate relatives in some ways. I see the same ten guys every day. I sleep, shower, eat, piss, even shit with them when need be. We are all going to fight together when we deploy soon. We will share ammunition and ration our food and water with each other. When one of us gets hit, another will run into incoming fire to grab his ass to safety.

Before I get to my point, bear this in mind. I am not homophobic. I have gay friends back home in MA where I am from. I believe it is a gay person's right as a citizen of this country to step up and defend their country and home if they choose. That is their right.

Now, where my story comes into consideration... (think of only my occupation in the infantry)
In my field, personal bias over one individual kills. Selfish actions kill. I cannot speak for every gay male if they ever get the opportunity to enlist, but the way we live here... it is inevitable that there will be favored emotions, and there will be thoughts of romance with the others they work with, not to mention sexual relations with each other if two homosexuals are placed in the same company. The result of such things? I'll let you be the judge.
People do not understand the outcome of the entire military if gays should openly be allowed in our ranks. I wanna know what you guys think of the matter at hand. Be smart about it please, don't just say "homo's are gay screw them" or "you're an ignorant crap who cares if gays are in the military." actually have some basis for you're argument.
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
#2
Don't ask don't policy makes since to me. You can't tell, but you can't ask either so it keeps sexuality out completely.

Edit: Forget that last part. It made me sound like a dick.
Last edited by slipknot5678 at Aug 1, 2010,
#3
Quote by Ostin
it is inevitable that there will be favored emotions, and there will be thoughts of romance with the others they work with, not to mention sexual relations with each other if two homosexuals are placed in the same company. The result of such things? I'll let you be the judge.

Six words: Alexander the Great and his army.

edit: v beat you to it, lololololo
Quote by Pleasure2kill
The truth is, Muslims never apologized for their faith having something to do with the attacks on 9/11.
#5
Well, I agree with your point of view. In fact, I'm surprised you're a marine. Have you ever been to war? As I could notice, not yet. If I was american, I'd definitely be a marine or part of the airborne. I always wanted to defend my country, only if I needed to, of course. In that matter, luckily Brazil is a pretty peaceful country.
#6
I still don't understand the outcome. What are you saying, that a gay man would inevitably fall in love with another man, and will be too busy making out to notice that someone else is being shot at? You stopped half-way through your argument, right before you explained exactly why this is a bad thing.

And no, I don't agree with that policy. It essentially enforces repression.
I'LL PUNCH A DONKEY IN THE STREETS OF GALWAY
Last edited by whalepudding at Aug 1, 2010,
#7
Every other country in the world outside of the middle-east is fine without it. I dunno, maybe you could justify it, but overall I just think it's turning down a bunch of legitimate soldiers. That said, I'd like it to stay just so if the draft was reinstated, I could just snog a guy and be off the hook unless it's a cause I believe in.
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#8
Quote by Ostin
In my field, personal bias over one individual kills. Selfish actions kill. I cannot speak for every gay male if they ever get the opportunity to enlist, but the way we live here... it is inevitable that there will be favored emotions, and there will be thoughts of romance with the others they work with, not to mention sexual relations with each other if two homosexuals are placed in the same company. The result of such things? I'll let you be the judge.

Isn't this going to happen, regardless? I mean, women can join the military, and surely there's the same kind of emotional relation between female and male members of a group in the military? Why would it be any different for gays or lesbians?

But then, I'm pretty misinformed as to how militiaries work.

At the end of the day, I say keeping able-bodied, healthy, patriotic young men and women out of the army, for any reason, does that military, and its country, more harm than good.
Q: Favourite Pink Floyd song?
A: The one where they get wicked high and play Emin and A for an hour.
#9
Quote by Wolfdale
Well, I agree with your point of view. In fact, I'm surprised you're a marine. Have you ever been to war? As I could notice, not yet. If I was american, I'd definitely be a marine or part of the airborne. I always wanted to defend my country, only if I needed to, of course. In that matter, luckily Brazil is a pretty peaceful country.

You live in Brazil? I wouldn't exactly call it a peaceful country, I've spent sometime volunteering in the Favelas in Brazil. The Favela's look like war zones, bullet holes riddle the walls of houses and you constantly hear gun shots. Occasionally you would actually see some gun fights break out in the middle of the street.

Don't kid yourself, there is actually a war going on in Brazil and I have witnessed it first hand.
Last edited by GodhandSP at Aug 1, 2010,
#10
From another thread:
Quote by Ostin
the guy on the bike was a guy...

...somethin you wanna tell us?
MATTERHORN
#11
imo sexual orientation shouldnt be a factor
in fact if the wars were fought by asexual soldiers it would be for the best in fact they should make it so that you dont know whos what sex
get some people learning things about them selves they didnt know before
#12
Quote by travislausch
Isn't this going to happen, regardless? I mean, women can join the military, and surely there's the same kind of emotional relation between female and male members of a group in the military? Why would it be any different for gays or lesbians?

But then, I'm pretty misinformed as to how militiaries work.

At the end of the day, I say keeping able-bodied, healthy, patriotic young men and women out of the army, for any reason, does that military, and its country, more harm than good.



it's also assuming that gay men automatically want to **** every other guy in the room.
#13
Quote by whalepudding
I still don't understand the outcome. What are you saying, that a gay man would inevitably fall in love with another man, and will be too busy making out to notice that someone else is being shot at? You stopped half-way through your argument, right before you explained exactly why this is a bad thing.

The outcome could be anything. It could be that gays will not affect anything at all. It could be that gays will share ammo with their gay counterpart instead of another soldier who needs it more. it could be that because of their lack of testosterone, that they cower and hide rather than step up and fight. who knows. using the information I've given you, you're supposed to assume you're own outcome and voice your opinion.
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
#14
Quote by Ostin
it could be that because of their lack of testosterone, that they cower and hide rather than step up and fight. who knows.



wat? If they're male, they have just as much testosterone as the other men. How do you account for women in the military? Wouldn't they supposedly cower even more?



Shad Smith... openly gay.... openly a testosterone factory.
Last edited by Lt. Shinysides at Aug 1, 2010,
#15
Quote by GodhandSP
You live in Brazil? I wouldn't exactly call it a peaceful country, I've spent sometime volunteering in the Favelas in Brazil. The Favela's look like war zones, bullet holes riddle the walls of houses and you constantly hear gun shots. Occasionally you would actually see some gun fights break out in the middle of the street.

Don't kid yourself, there is actually a war going on in Brazil and I have witnessed it first hand.

Well, let's face the facts: favelas only exist in Rio and São Paulo. Or you really think other states have favelas? I've never been into one in my whole life to say the truth. And I'm not rich, I'm just a regular guy, and for me, Brazil is peaceful, corrupted by politicians and yet a sweet place to live. In the moment, I'm posting from Fortaleza, Ceará, probrably you never heard of it because all the hype is on Rio. But I'm pretty interested in your work here, how long have you been here? What did you do?

Abraços, do amigo brasileiro.
#16
Quote by Lt. Shinysides
it's also assuming that gay men automatically want to **** every other guy in the room.

Well, if you really think that, you must have a pretty skewered view of homosexuals. None of my gay friends want to **** every guy they bump into. In fact, they're pretty much as reserved when it comes to sexuality as anyone else I know.
Q: Favourite Pink Floyd song?
A: The one where they get wicked high and play Emin and A for an hour.
#17
Quote by whalepudding
I still don't understand the outcome. What are you saying, that a gay man would inevitably fall in love with another man, and will be too busy making out to notice that someone else is being shot at? You stopped half-way through your argument, right before you explained exactly why this is a bad thing.

And no, I don't agree with that policy. It essentially enforces repression.


Well from what I understand, it's more like a "gay person will do stupid thing he shouldn't do to save a man he loves" situation. The only problem I'd see with this is the opposite. Homophobes in the military might not be able to see past their orientation and perhaps abandon a wounded man or not take every step possible to save said wounded soldier because he is gay. Don't ask don't tell makes the most sense to me
Quote by Sooopo
You sir, have made my day awesome.


8/7/09

RIP Les Paul, I bet he's forming a kick-ass band up there to play The Great Gig in the Sky. Maybe we'll all have to use a Stairway to Heaven to go see them play. You know I'm funny.
#18
I don't have too much of a problem with the don't ask don't tell policy. That way it just doesn't cause any trouble because if you ARE gay and in the military, you've obviously been an able soldier and haven't let your sexuality get in the way of your ability to perform your duty.

If it was to become open to out-of-the-closet gays, I feel like, even though there is the slight problem of maybe sexual desires causing problems, but moreso other, straight members would probably have a huge bias/discrimination toward those guys, even if they performed just fine, only because gays have never been allowed openly.
Dead soldier! Go now to Valhalla!
Last edited by Gman400 at Aug 1, 2010,
#19
Quote by Ostin
The outcome could be anything. It could be that gays will not affect anything at all. It could be that gays will share ammo with their gay counterpart instead of another soldier who needs it more.


Do black soldiers do that to white soldiers and vice versa? Do female soldiers do that to male soldiers and vice versa? If not then it seems a bit like worrying about a situation that's very unlikely.

it could be that because of their lack of testosterone, that they cower and hide rather than step up and fight.


Um, outside of stereotypes, I've never heard of gay guys having less testosterone than straight guys. It never really concerned me though, so I never looked into it. Also women have virtually none if any at all, and they're in the army.

using the information I've given you, you're supposed to assume you're own outcome and voice your opinion.


Done and done. It's stupid I think, but I want it to stay so if this passes, I can make out with a guy and get out of it. I'm fine putting my life on the line for a cause I believe in, but the current wars are far from something I believe in.
THE FORUM UPDATE KILLED THE GRADIENT STAR

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2017 NFL Pick 'Em: 92-54
#20
Quote by Lt. Shinysides
it's also assuming that gay men automatically want to **** every other guy in the room.

it's really not. did you read anything in the first post?
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
#21
Quote by Ostin
it's really not. did you read anything in the first post?



I didn't mention your views, I mention the views of people who would keep gays out of the military cuz "they'll just walk around queerin' and pantyhosein' "

Quote by travislausch
Well, if you really think that, you must have a pretty skewered view of homosexuals. None of my gay friends want to **** every guy they bump into. In fact, they're pretty much as reserved when it comes to sexuality as anyone else I know.



I don't. Please don't interpret that as my own personal opinion.
Last edited by Lt. Shinysides at Aug 1, 2010,
#22
I'd support Don't ask Don't tell if it really meant no asking and no telling, but the military hasn't been good about not asking from what I've heard. My worry is that openly gay people in the military are just asking to get harassed and discriminated against by their fellow soldiers. I may be assuming but military type people always strike me as likely to be REALLY homophobic. As I said before however the military does research on you and If they find evidence you're gay they could legally keep you from joining. With that in mind, it seems all that is left if we are to progress is to just outright allow openly gay people in the military.

Then again, I'm no military expert, so please pardon any possible BS in this post.
Last edited by In The Mist at Aug 1, 2010,
#23
Quote by Wolfdale
Well, let's face the facts: favelas only exist in Rio and São Paulo. Or you really think other states have favelas? I've never been into one in my whole life to say the truth. And I'm not rich, I'm just a regular guy, and for me, Brazil is peaceful, corrupted by politicians and yet a sweet place to live. In the moment, I'm posting from Fortaleza, Ceará, probrably you never heard of it because all the hype is on Rio. But I'm pretty interested in your work here, how long have you been here? What did you do?

Abraços, do amigo brasileiro.

I'm was there to try to teach the people of the favelas proper skills in order to get a job. I actually worked in the famed Favela Cidade De Deus and Rochina 2. I mostly was doing grunt work for the organization. Can you believe cidade de deus has a 70% unemployment rate?

I usually go down to Rio once every year for volunteer work, but sometimes I just go to chill with friends of mine.

The favelas in Rio are a completely different world. The ones I went to were ruled by CV and you had to abide by their rules. Gang members would walk around with huge guns like AR15s, AK47s and some even had RPG's. While I was there BOPE would always invade the favela and I saw many gun fights. It really looked like a war zone in Cidade de deus.

Voce mora na forteleza? mutio legao

BTW I love Rio it's one of my favorite places and I always have a blast when I'm there
#24
For anyone who mentioned women, know that women cannot join the infantry. It is against the geneva conventions that a female should fight as a foot soldier in the front lines, and (this is a bit sexist on my part) but most, and i emphasize, MOST... women cannot do what we do here. This is because there bodies are not built like the bodies of males. Lets face facts. Women are not as muscular as men. Get over it, women. But for the women that do have combat jobs, there are problems between the men they work with. you don't hear about it.

And whoever brought up the argument that homophobes would abandon gays, that is another AWESOME thought I didn't even touch. It does work both ways.
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
#25
You claim you're not homophobic but it's pretty obvious that you're, at the very least, ridiculously ignorant about gay people.
My band, Escher
My progressive rock project, Mosaic

Quote by Lappo
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#26
Quote by GodhandSP
I'm was there to try to teach the people of the favelas proper skills in order to get a job. I actually worked in the famed Favela Cidade De Deus and Rochina 2. I mostly was doing grunt work for the organization. Can you believe cidade de deus has a 70% unemployment rate?

I usually go down to Rio once every year for volunteer work, but sometimes I just go to chill with friends of mine.

The favelas in Rio are a completely different world. The ones I went to were ruled by CV and you had to abide by their rules. Gang members would walk around with huge guns like AR15s, AK47s and some even had RPG's. While I was there BOPE would always invade the favela and I saw many gun fights. It really looked like a war zone in Cidade de deus.

Voce mora na forteleza? mutio legao

BTW I love Rio it's one of my favorite places and I always have a blast when I'm there


Man, you're shitting me, right? AK 47s? RPGs? BOPE showing up like this? I believe you've seen Cidade de Deus and Tropa de Elite too many times, hehehe. Did you see those movies? They're great, you'd have a great time watching them.

Where do you live now? Where are you from?

Uma pequena dica: legal termina com 'l' hehehe!
#28
Quote by GodofCheesecake
You claim you're not homophobic but it's pretty obvious that you're, at the very least, ridiculously ignorant about gay people.

I am not 'ridiculously ignorant' about gay people at all. It's the same argument for whoever says that women in the military don't cause a problem, and i assure you I am the least sexist man you will ever meet. They don't properly have the facts on the subject they think they know about just because cnn doesn't do a story about it. Until you're eyes have seen it and you're feet have walked it, i'd keep your personal opinions about me out of here.

edit: I realize this after posting, but i did not mean for this to sound like I disagree with women acting in the military. I meant that you could use the same argument I just said in the post prior to this one for those who say that women do not pose any problems between their male counterparts. They do. oh boy, they do. does that mean i think no women should serve? not at all. there are some problems the world just has to deal with
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
Last edited by Ostin at Aug 1, 2010,
#29
I have actually signed that paper.

Basically it sums up to "It is ok to be gay, but don't let anyone in the military know that you are". I have no problem with Don't ask, Don't tell and no I am not a homophobe. At your regular job your sexuality doesn't usally come into question, as it should not, so why would it ever be a topic in the military. The rule was probably put in place by right wings who are uncomfortable with the topic and it is kept in place to keep them happy.

People seem to forget that they have the ability to lie. If you are gay and someone says "Hey, I can give you the most secure job in the world. The only catch is that you cannot be gay". Couldn't you just as easily say no as yes?

Basically I think we should keep the bill. It keeps the conservatives happy and has an easily exploited loop hole. Simply, don't have a romantic relationship with your fellows in the armed services. Wait a couple of years if your feelings are truely that strong.
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Quote by Calibos
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#30
Quote by Ostin
i assure you I am the least sexist man you will ever meet.

Quote by Ostin
women cannot do what we do here. This is because there bodies are not built like the bodies of males. Lets face facts. Women are not as muscular as men. Get over it, women.

wut.
Quote by Pleasure2kill
The truth is, Muslims never apologized for their faith having something to do with the attacks on 9/11.
#31
Quote by Ostin
I am not 'ridiculously ignorant' about gay people at all. It's the same argument for whoever says that women in the military don't cause a problem, and i assure you I am the least sexist man you will ever meet. They don't properly have the facts on the subject they think they know about just because cnn doesn't do a story about it. Until you're eyes have seen it and you're feet have walked it, i'd keep your personal opinions about me out of here.

Your entire post was based on stereotypes about gay people that are largely untrue. That's a fact regardless of who you are or what you've done with your life.

I never claimed women don't cause any problems in the military. Are you claiming that straight men never cause any problems? I'm sure I could find plenty of stories documenting fuck-ups caused by straight men in the army. Perhaps we should keep them out too.
My band, Escher
My progressive rock project, Mosaic

Quote by Lappo
clearly, the goal is to convert every thread into a discussion about BTBAM

BTBAM IS ALWAYS RELEVANT
#32
Quote by damian_91
wut.



well he's not exactly making it up. It's just a biological fact that men tend to be physically more muscular than women.
#33
Quote by Lt. Shinysides
well he's not exactly making it up. It's just a biological fact that men tend to be physically more muscular than women.

Yeah but the "get over it, women" makes it sound like "make me a sammich, bitch".
Quote by Pleasure2kill
The truth is, Muslims never apologized for their faith having something to do with the attacks on 9/11.
#34
Quote by Lt. Shinysides
well he's not exactly making it up. It's just a biological fact that men tend to be physically more muscular than women.

Which in no way means that women aren't capable of fighting for their country.
My band, Escher
My progressive rock project, Mosaic

Quote by Lappo
clearly, the goal is to convert every thread into a discussion about BTBAM

BTBAM IS ALWAYS RELEVANT
#35
Quote by damian_91
wut.


Women aren't built the same way we are. Our body frames are built to capacitate more muscle and we have more natural testosterone. Like how women are built to be able to push babies out their bodies so they naturally have different, more developed muscles and bone connections down there.
Quote by Sooopo
You sir, have made my day awesome.


8/7/09

RIP Les Paul, I bet he's forming a kick-ass band up there to play The Great Gig in the Sky. Maybe we'll all have to use a Stairway to Heaven to go see them play. You know I'm funny.
#36
Quote by GodofCheesecake
Your entire post was based on stereotypes about gay people that are largely untrue. That's a fact regardless of who you are or what you've done with your life.

I never claimed women don't cause any problems in the military. Are you claiming that straight men never cause any problems? I'm sure I could find plenty of stories documenting fuck-ups caused by straight men in the army. Perhaps we should keep them out too.

Why are you talking about straight men ****ing up? That is totally off the subject and you're simply trying to find anything to make me look like a stereotypical ass. You have to face reality and realize that the things i said in my first post are not stereotypical at all. They are possibilities. I never said, never once said, that any of those things were definite to happen. i said they could happen, and COULD is a risk I cannot afford.
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
#37
Quote by GodofCheesecake
Which in no way means that women aren't capable of fighting for their country.

No it doesn't mean that but what it does mean is that when you're going on a twenty mile hike with eighty pounds of gear on your back and you're body isn't built to produce muscle like males', you're not going to make it.
the
music and soul of love and hope and light manifesting in our minds, trapping whats left of us in our hearts.
where theres nowhere to go.


Quote by I_Pwn
Ostin, you are the pwnzorz and my new hero for that flame.

and this is a guy who's name is "i pwn"
#38
Quote by GodofCheesecake
Which in no way means that women aren't capable of fighting for their country.

No one said otherwise. Personally I see nothing wrong with women doing other less arduous tasks. If a woman REALLY wants to fight in the front line, let her. But when it comes down to it, men are hunters and women are gatherers. Of course there are always exceptions (that I consider a bit unnatural, but then again I consider homosexuality a bit unnatural), but we're just different.
Quote by Sooopo
You sir, have made my day awesome.


8/7/09

RIP Les Paul, I bet he's forming a kick-ass band up there to play The Great Gig in the Sky. Maybe we'll all have to use a Stairway to Heaven to go see them play. You know I'm funny.
#39
Quote by Ostin
Why are you talking about straight men ****ing up? That is totally off the subject and you're simply trying to find anything to make me look like a stereotypical ass.

I don't know, why are you talking about women being problems? It was simply another example.
Quote by Ostin
You have to face reality and realize that the things i said in my first post are not stereotypical at all. They are possibilities.

Stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. I'm not saying that anything that you outlined could never happen, I'm simply saying that you're acting as though every gay person will act the same way in every situation.
Quote by Ostin
I never said, never once said, that any of those things were definite to happen. i said they could happen, and COULD is a risk I cannot afford.

That's exactly why I brought up straight males. You've claimed that women cause problems in the military and you're speculating that gay people would cause problems as well, yet you're acting as though an army made up of entirely straight males would have absolutely no problems at all. Which is ridiculous. If you can't afford any risks, straight males have to go too. Pretty sure they've caused more problems than women and gay males combined.
My band, Escher
My progressive rock project, Mosaic

Quote by Lappo
clearly, the goal is to convert every thread into a discussion about BTBAM

BTBAM IS ALWAYS RELEVANT
#40
Quote by GodofCheesecake
Pretty sure they've caused more problems than women and gay males combined.

Uh...I think that's because there's more of them. Just sayin.
Quote by Sooopo
You sir, have made my day awesome.


8/7/09

RIP Les Paul, I bet he's forming a kick-ass band up there to play The Great Gig in the Sky. Maybe we'll all have to use a Stairway to Heaven to go see them play. You know I'm funny.
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