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#1
Okay so I think I've full got the grasp of modes, but some questions remain. I'll post what I know and how I think they work so you understand what I'm thinking.

You build a mode by simply changing the starting note on a scale I believe. For example in C major (C D E F G A B) You would start on D to get your D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, and so on so forth. I do know how the differ from the Major Scale, such as Dorian has a flattened 3rd and 7th, but there isn't much to say about that. I can apply those to about any root note and make a mode easily (and knowing what major key it is based off of)

Now if I understand this correctly, lets say we are in C Major. If you were to switch to D Dorian you would act as though D was the root note correct? I don't know how that would sound though, or if it would even be well placed in C Major... As you can see my problem lies with how to apply them to writing a song rather than how they are built. In the Circle of Fifths I can see related scales easily, but for modes I'm at loss if I wish to modulate with them.
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#2
No, that's not how modes work.

It's not as simple as "starting on another note" - if you're "in C major" then it isn't possible to "switch to D Dorian".
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#3
Quote by steven seagull
No, that's not how modes work.

It's not as simple as "starting on another note" - if you're "in C major" then it isn't possible to "switch to D Dorian".
Well I'm at a loss then, better go back and read more information yet again...
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#4
Quote by 7grant2
You build a mode by simply changing the starting note on a scale I believe. For example in C major (C D E F G A B) You would start on D to get your D Dorian, E Phrygian, F Lydian, and so on so forth. I do know how the differ from the Major Scale, such as Dorian has a flattened 3rd and 7th, but there isn't much to say about that. I can apply those to about any root note and make a mode easily (and knowing what major key it is based off of)


Using the C Major key sig, yes. If you're in C Major, no. If you're in C Major and you start on D you're still in C Major, not D Dorian.

Modes are about what the notes resolve to. C - F - G is no more Dorian than it is Minor. It's completely C Major whether or not you start on C D E F or F#.

Now if I understand this correctly, lets say we are in C Major. If you were to switch to D Dorian you would act as though D was the root note correct? I don't know how that would sound though, or if it would even be well placed in C Major... As you can see my problem lies with how to apply them to writing a song rather than how they are built. In the Circle of Fifths I can see related scales easily, but for modes I'm at loss if I wish to modulate with them.


You wouldn't act as though D was the root note... D is the root note. And it wouldn't be well placed in C Major. Because it's D Dorian, not C Major.

A quick application of modes involves drone notes and chordal vamps. If you were to play Dm - Em then play D Dorian over that, it'll work fine. Nothing else would really fit (if we're talking about the "diatonic" notes). But if you play D Dorian over a C - F - G it's still C Major.

You could also just drone the D. Then it's fair game what you play... as long as it's in D.
#5
it isn't possible to play a D dorian in a C major Key. Nor over a C major chord, unless you're intending your sound to be disonant. There are major modes, and there are minor modes. Say for example, you're improvising a phrase over a bar of C major chord. You can use the major modes, Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. How you use them comes down to personal taste. But when i improvise this, i use the #4 of the lydian and the flat 7 of the Mixo, as passsing notes, to add extra flavour to my phrasing. I hope this aids your understanding.
#6
^Droning the D = pitch axis. Play D repeatedly and then play any mode you want, provided it is D. Ex. D dorian, D phygrian, D locrian. That is one of my favorite ways to apply modes.




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#8
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Using the C Major key sig, yes. If you're in C Major, no. If you're in C Major and you start on D you're still in C Major, not D Dorian.

Modes are about what the notes resolve to. C - F - G is no more Dorian than it is Minor. It's completely C Major whether or not you start on C D E F or F#.
So no matter what, I would use each mode as its own scale. D would be the root note of it and it would follow its own pattern, not turning out to be a C Major progression (I IV V) C E G, but would rather be D F A for D Dorian.


Quote by DiminishedFifth

You wouldn't act as though D was the root note... D is the root note. And it wouldn't be well placed in C Major. Because it's D Dorian, not C Major.

A quick application of modes involves drone notes and chordal vamps. If you were to play Dm - Em then play D Dorian over that, it'll work fine. Nothing else would really fit (if we're talking about the "diatonic" notes). But if you play D Dorian over a C - F - G it's still C Major.

This is where I'm getting confused it. D Dorian shares the exact same notes as C Major, so I would assume its relevant. When I look at a CoF diagram I see that A minor is related to C major because they share common notes, so why not with the mode of C Major and D Dorian?

My guess is that there is some sort of harmony between C major and A minor, but not exactly sure how.

Quote by The_Reaper6
it isn't possible to play a D dorian in a C major Key. Nor over a C major chord, unless you're intending your sound to be disonant. There are major modes, and there are minor modes. Say for example, you're improvising a phrase over a bar of C major chord. You can use the major modes, Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. How you use them comes down to personal taste. But when i improvise this, i use the #4 of the lydian and the flat 7 of the Mixo, as passsing notes, to add extra flavour to my phrasing. I hope this aids your understanding.

I do remember reading something about this... I believe it follows the course of the Major Scale. Ionian, Mixolydian, and Lydian are Major; Phrygian, Aeolian, Dorian are minor; and Locrian is diminished correct?
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Last edited by 7grant2 at Aug 3, 2010,
#9
Quote by 7grant2
So no matter what, I would use each mode as its own scale. D would be the root note of it and it would follow its own pattern, not turning out to be a C Major progression (I IV V) C E G, but would rather be D F A for D Dorian.


This is where I'm getting confused it. D Dorian shares the exact same notes as C Major, so I would assume its relevant. When I look at a CoF diagram I see that A minor is related to C major because they share common notes, so why not with the mode of C Major and D Dorian?

My guess is that there is some sort of harmony between C major and A minor, but not exactly sure how.


It's not about the "same" notes it's about the intervals created. You also dont harmonize like that on modal harmony as it's a completely different harmonic style. You really should go and get used to regular harmony first before you start thinking about going modal.
#10
Quote by 7grant2
So no matter what, I would use each mode as its own scale. D would be the root note of it and it would follow its own pattern, not turning out to be a C Major progression (I IV V) C E G, but would rather be D F A for D Dorian.

Pretty much. Except I - IV - V in C is C - F - A and i - IV - v in D Dorian is Dm - G - Am.

This is where I'm getting confused it. D Dorian shares the exact same notes as C Major, so I would assume its relevant. When I look at a CoF diagram I see that A minor is related to C major because they share common notes, so why not with the mode of C Major and D Dorian?

My guess is that there is some sort of harmony between C major and A minor, but not exactly sure how.

The thing with C Major and A Minor is that, out of all the different modes, they're the most "stable". When you play the A Minor scale from A to A it sounds (mostly) resolved. Same with the C Major scale, except it sounds completely resolved. None of the other modes really have that quality to them.

The reason we use the drone notes and chordal vamps is because we want that modal sound. If we play D Dorian over a C Major progression, no matter what we do it'll still sound C Major. But if we played D Dorian over a Dm chord it'll DEFINITELY have that Dorian "flavor".
#11
Quote by Pillo114
It's not about the "same" notes it's about the intervals created. You also dont harmonize like that on modal harmony as it's a completely different harmonic style. You really should go and get used to regular harmony first before you start thinking about going modal.
I've learned intervals, but thats about all I know in harmony. Perfect Consonances are the Perfect 4th and 5th (as described by the name). Uh, I think the other Consonances in intervals are the Major 3rd and 6th I believe. The rest of the intervals are "unstable" and need resolving.
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#12
Quote by 7grant2
I've learned intervals, but thats about all I know in harmony. Perfect Consonances are the Perfect 4th and 5th (as described by the name). Uh, I think the other Consonances in intervals are the Major 3rd and 6th I believe. The rest of the intervals are "unstable" and need resolving.

If this is you're response to what he said... then you need to stick with Tonal Harmony for quite a bit longer.
#13
Quote by DiminishedFifth
Pretty much. Except I - IV - V in C is C - F - A and i - IV - v in D Dorian is Dm - G - Am.


The thing with C Major and A Minor is that, out of all the different modes, they're the most "stable". When you play the A Minor scale from A to A it sounds (mostly) resolved. Same with the C Major scale, except it sounds completely resolved. None of the other modes really have that quality to them.

The reason we use the drone notes and chordal vamps is because we want that modal sound. If we play D Dorian over a C Major progression, no matter what we do it'll still sound C Major. But if we played D Dorian over a Dm chord it'll DEFINITELY have that Dorian "flavor".
Sorry, I don't exactly know my Major Scale off the top of my head yet, but yes I understand what you are saying now so thanks
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#14
Quote by DiminishedFifth
If this is you're response to what he said... then you need to stick with Tonal Harmony for quite a bit longer.
I just learned intervals I assumed that is what they were.
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#15
Quote by 7grant2
Sorry, I don't exactly know my Major Scale off the top of my head yet, but yes I understand what you are saying now so thanks
You should know the major scale like the back of your hand before you start into the modes.

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#16
Quote by 7grant2
I just learned intervals I assumed that is what they were.

That is what they are... but that's not what he was talking about.

But really... stick to Tonal harmony for awhile. It'll benefit you more in the long run than Modes will (and you'll likely figure most of this stuff out on your own in the process).

And you're welcome :]
#17
Quote by 7grant2
I've learned intervals, but thats about all I know in harmony. Perfect Consonances are the Perfect 4th and 5th (as described by the name). Uh, I think the other Consonances in intervals are the Major 3rd and 6th I believe. The rest of the intervals are "unstable" and need resolving.


It's not about that. The mode is defined by the collection of intervals that make up the mode and not the actual notes. That's why C Major is not D Dorian, the notes are the same but the intervals aren't.

You should search within here for modes threads that me and others might have posted for a lot of info but you need a lot more than not knowing the major scale off the top of your head to work in modality. I dont mean it as an insult, I just mean that you probably havent listened to any music that's modal and not just a chord vamp.
#18
Quote by DiminishedFifth
But really... stick to Tonal harmony for awhile. It'll benefit you more in the long run than Modes will (and you'll likely figure most of this stuff out on your own in the process).
Exactly. Modes are a piece of cake once you've gotten really good with tonal harmony.
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#19
Quote by DiminishedFifth
That is what they are... but that's not what he was talking about.

But really... stick to Tonal harmony for awhile. It'll benefit you more in the long run than Modes will (and you'll likely figure most of this stuff out on your own in the process).

And you're welcome :]
Yeah... now off to find an online lesson about it. Thanks lol, I appreciate it.

Quote by Pillo114
It's not about that. The mode is defined by the collection of intervals that make up the mode and not the actual notes. That's why C Major is not D Dorian, the notes are the same but the intervals aren't.

You should search within here for modes threads that me and others might have posted for a lot of info but you need a lot more than not knowing the major scale off the top of your head to work in modality. I dont mean it as an insult, I just mean that you probably havent listened to any music that's modal and not just a chord vamp.
Its fine, I'm still pretty much a beginner theorist of music. After absolute basics I just was lost what to learn next. Also for modal music, I'm not exactly too sure who to listen to besides classical artists like Bach... if he was modal.
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#20
Well, this would be a good place to set him straight before he moves on -- things will make more sense then.

Okay, 7grant2, this is the way things work. Every piece of music has a tonic (root note)*. When we listen to music, our brain immediately looks for a tonic. It's a pretty mysterious phenomenon. All other notes in that piece of music are heard in relation to the tonic. We don't hear an A in a C Major song the same way we hear an A in a Bb Minor song. An A in a C Major song is major 6th while an A in a Bb Minor song is a major 7th. This changes everything.

When D Dorian is played over C Major, all of those notes are heard in relation to C. Thus, it doesn't sound any different. There is a lot of tricky suggestion and self-fulfilling prophecies in the guitar universe that lead people to think otherwise. I'll go into more detail if you want, but long story short it leads to much, much misinformation. This is why we say that D Dorian doesn't exist in C Major. Nothing in C Major is ever head from the perspective of D**. Likewise, none of the other modes of C Major exist either.

However, it's worth noting that, C Lydian, for example, is fair game in C Major. While it's not truly modal by any means***, it does a good job of explaining to someone that you're using a #4. This is not uncommon at all. Basically the cornerstone of metal, anyhow.

So go have fun with tonal harmony keeping all of these things in mind. They're good to know. When you do finally dabble in modes I'd bet money that you'll be back working with tonal harmony in no time. It's more flexible and a lot more interesting.

*Debatable when talking about atonal music, but that's irrelevant.
**D's that appear before C is tonicized in a complex harmony could be an exception, but typically these moments sound crappy.
***You'd have to avoid 4s at all costs and only use #4s. The harmony would have to be non functioning in a tonal sense also, and the bass of every could would fair well to be C.

Edit: The Classical Era was the escape from modality. It's when tonality, which had been lingering for a while before hand, was finally established. In the Classical Era, the Catholic Church required all music to be tonal. Since most composers were commissioned by the Church even up until post-Renaissance, modal music had seen its last days.
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Last edited by Eastwinn at Aug 3, 2010,
#21
Quote by 7grant2
Yeah... now off to find an online lesson about it. Thanks lol, I appreciate it.

Its fine, I'm still pretty much a beginner theorist of music. After absolute basics I just was lost what to learn next. Also for modal music, I'm not exactly too sure who to listen to besides classical artists like Bach... if he was modal.


you're definitely a long ways away from being a theorist

Listen to Debussy and ravel for modal Impressionism. And in Jazz listen to Miles between Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock and the rest of the modal jazz in the 60s. Other than that, only extreme cases are true modal music.
#22
Quote by Eastwinn
Well, this would be a good place to set him straight before he moves on -- things will make more sense then.

Okay, 7grant2, this is the way things work. Every piece of music has a tonic (root note)*. When we listen to music, our brain immediately looks for a tonic. It's a pretty mysterious phenomenon. All other notes in that piece of music are heard in relation to the tonic. We don't hear an A in a C Major song the same way we hear an A in a Bb Minor song. An A in a C Major song is major 6th while an A in a Bb Minor song is a major 7th. This changes everything.

When D Dorian is played over C Major, all of those notes are heard in relation to C. Thus, it doesn't sound any different. There is a lot of tricky suggestion and self-fulfilling prophecies in the guitar universe that lead people to think otherwise. I'll go into more detail if you want, but long story short it leads to much, much misinformation. This is why we say that D Dorian doesn't exist in C Major. Nothing in C Major is ever head from the perspective of D**. Likewise, none of the other modes of C Major exist either.

However, it's worth noting that, C Lydian, for example, is fair game in C Major. While it's not truly modal by any means***, it does a good job of explaining to someone that you're using a #4. This is not uncommon at all. Basically the cornerstone of metal, anyhow.

So go have fun with tonal harmony keeping all of these things in mind. They're good to know. When you do finally dabble in modes I'd bet money that you'll be back working with tonal harmony in no time. It's more flexible and a lot more interesting.

*Debatable when talking about atonal music, but that's irrelevant.
**D's that appear before C is tonicized in a complex harmony could be an exception, but typically these moments sound crappy.
***You'd have to avoid 4s at all costs and only use #4s. The harmony would have to be non functioning in a tonal sense also, and the bass of every could would fair well to be C.

Edit: The Classical Era was the escape from modality. It's when tonality, which had been lingering for a while before hand, was finally established. In the Classical Era, the Catholic Church required all music to be tonal. Since most composers were commissioned by the Church even up until post-Renaissance, modal music had seen its last days.
I understood what you said :/

So no modes of C Major will work with C Major, but would modes of another root be fair game with C Major? I'm guessing there is some complicated reason why the modes of G Major won't sound as good as those modes with D Major so I think I'll just go back and learn my fair share of tonal harmony.

Quote by Pillo114
you're definitely a long ways away from being a theorist

Listen to Debussy and ravel for modal Impressionism. And in Jazz listen to Miles between Kind of Blue and Bitches Brew, Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock and the rest of the modal jazz in the 60s. Other than that, only extreme cases are true modal music.
I like Jazz I'll be sure to listen to those songs. Also I was just saying I'm just scratching the surface of music theory
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Last edited by 7grant2 at Aug 3, 2010,
#23
Quote by Eastwinn
Well, this would be a good place to set him straight before he moves on -- things will make more sense then.

Okay, 7grant2, this is the way things work. Every piece of music has a tonic (root note)*. When we listen to music, our brain immediately looks for a tonic. It's a pretty mysterious phenomenon. All other notes in that piece of music are heard in relation to the tonic. We don't hear an A in a C Major song the same way we hear an A in a Bb Minor song. An A in a C Major song is major 6th while an A in a Bb Minor song is a major 7th. This changes everything.

When D Dorian is played over C Major, all of those notes are heard in relation to C. Thus, it doesn't sound any different. There is a lot of tricky suggestion and self-fulfilling prophecies in the guitar universe that lead people to think otherwise. I'll go into more detail if you want, but long story short it leads to much, much misinformation. This is why we say that D Dorian doesn't exist in C Major. Nothing in C Major is ever head from the perspective of D**. Likewise, none of the other modes of C Major exist either.

However, it's worth noting that, C Lydian, for example, is fair game in C Major. While it's not truly modal by any means***, it does a good job of explaining to someone that you're using a #4. This is not uncommon at all. Basically the cornerstone of metal, anyhow.

So go have fun with tonal harmony keeping all of these things in mind. They're good to know. When you do finally dabble in modes I'd bet money that you'll be back working with tonal harmony in no time. It's more flexible and a lot more interesting.

*Debatable when talking about atonal music, but that's irrelevant.
**D's that appear before C is tonicized in a complex harmony could be an exception, but typically these moments sound crappy.
***You'd have to avoid 4s at all costs and only use #4s. The harmony would have to be non functioning in a tonal sense also, and the bass of every could would fair well to be C.

Edit: The Classical Era was the escape from modality. It's when tonality, which had been lingering for a while before hand, was finally established. In the Classical Era, the Catholic Church required all music to be tonal. Since most composers were commissioned by the Church even up until post-Renaissance, modal music had seen its last days.



That's a good explanation of old modes, but it has absolutely nothing to do with modern modality and Impressionism
#24
Quote by 7grant2
So no modes of C Major will work with C Major, but would modes of another root be fair game with C Major?
No. Like he said, our brains naturally try to "hear" a tonal center. If you're playing over C major, the tonal center (tonic/root) is C. If you were to play something with a truly different tonal center over this then it would be polytonal. You could, technically, play a mode of a scale of a different root, as long as the mode has the same root as the song you're playing it over, but this way of going about it is very confusing.

A less confusing way to look at it is to look at the modes in terms of parallel modes, rather than relative modes. Knowing that C ionian and D dorian contain the same notes doesn't really get you very far. What you want to know is how C ionian (or major) and C dorian relate, as they are parallel (i.e. they share the same root). C dorian is actually a mode of the Bb major scale, but that's irrelevant unless you want to modulate to Bb major or something, but then that makes C dorian irrelevant.

Quote by 7grant2
I'm guessing there is some complicated reason why the modes of G Major won't sound as good as those modes with D Major so I think I'll just go back and learn my fair share of tonal harmony.
Huh? I don't really understand this question.

I don't think the answer is really all that complicated, but I don't quite know what you're asking.
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#25
Quote by food1010
No. Like he said, our brains naturally try to "hear" a tonal center. If you're playing over C major, the tonal center (tonic/root) is C. If you were to play something with a truly different tonal center over this then it would be polytonal. You could, technically, play a mode of a scale of a different root, as long as the mode has the same root as the song you're playing it over, but this way of going about it is very confusing.

A less confusing way to look at it is to look at the modes in terms of parallel modes, rather than relative modes. Knowing that C ionian and D dorian contain the same notes doesn't really get you very far. What you want to know is how C ionian (or major) and C dorian relate, as they are parallel (i.e. they share the same root). C dorian is actually a mode of the Bb major scale, but that's irrelevant unless you want to modulate to Bb major or something, but then that makes C dorian irrelevant.

Huh? I don't really understand this question.

I don't think the answer is really all that complicated, but I don't quite know what you're asking.
I'm beginning to understand, but as previously mentioned I might as well study Tonal Harmony before continuing. I hate to be confused and ask any more questions since I'm not too knowledgeable on the topic anyway lol, but from what you said I'm guessing I can use any mode as long as the keys are the same? So playing from different modes with the key of C (C ionian, dorian, etc) would be correct? If thats wrong I'm just going to forget modes entirely for now

EDIT: So technically I chord right a song using C Ionian and C Dorian if I wished?

As for the second question I was confused with something else which I realized so just ignore that question overall lol.
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Last edited by 7grant2 at Aug 3, 2010,
#26
Quote by 7grant2
I'm beginning to understand, but as previously mentioned I might as well study Tonal Harmony before continuing. I hate to be confused and ask any more questions since I'm not too knowledgeable on the topic anyway lol, but from what you said I'm guessing I can use any mode as long as the keys are similar? So modulating from different modes with the key of C (C ionian, dorian, etc). If thats wrong I'm just going to forget modes entirely for now

As for the second question I was confused with something else which I realized so just ignore that question overall lol.

Honestly, I feel like it's just best to think of modes as any ordinary scale.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#27
Quote by hockeyplayer168
Honestly, I feel like it's just best to think of modes as any ordinary scale.
Thats what I'm beginning to think would be best.
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#28
Quote by 7grant2
Thats what I'm beginning to think would be best.

It's important to remember that when using modes, you chord choices are somewhat limited. Modes use chord vamping or single tone vamping because the more harmonized chords you start to throw into the mix, the tendency to drift into the relative major key increases. Before you know it, you're not playing E locrian anymore, you're playing F major.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
Last edited by hockeyplayer168 at Aug 3, 2010,
#29
Quote by Pillo114
That's a good explanation of old modes, but it has absolutely nothing to do with modern modality and Impressionism


Absolutely. I'm not much of a fan of modern modality.. well I am and I not. I'm not a stubborn old man about it, but sometimes I think it's a tad unnecessary. It's perfectly legitimate way to go about things though. Different strokes for different folks.

7grant2: What I'm saying is that the modes of C Major aren't special over C Major. Just a different name for the same thing. I.E. D dorian, E Phrygian, etc.. Modes of the same root as C Major (the parallel modes of C Major) will sound plenty different and (careful) use of them will bring out their mode-ness. In the Classical view of music theory (the school of thought that I general belong to), this technique is rarely thought of as modal in anyway but that's besides the point. The point I really want to get across to you is that in C Major, everything is C something. D Dorian doesn't exist because the song is in C.

In response to your recent post: Modern views of modality says yes, C Dorian is perfectly acceptable in C Major. Some of would rather not call it C Dorian, but what really matters is that b3 and a b7 are being used where they normally wouldn't.

There are placing where modern modality takes breaks from all that I've said. Wait until you really know what you're doing before you get there.
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#30
Quote by hockeyplayer168
It's important to remember that when using modes, you chord choices are somewhat limited. Modes use chord vamping or single tone vamping because the more harmonized chords you start to throw into the mix, the tendency to drift into the relative major key increases. Before you know it, you're not playing E locrian anymore, you're playing F major.
That means throwing in those chords that uses 7ths, 9ths, etc, will naturally modulate you to a different key, interesting.
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#31
Quote by Eastwinn
Absolutely. I'm not much of a fan of modern modality.. well I am and I not. I'm not a stubborn old man about it, but sometimes I think it's a tad unnecessary. It's perfectly legitimate way to go about things though. Different strokes for different folks.

7grant2: What I'm saying is that the modes of C Major aren't special over C Major. Just a different name for the same thing. I.E. D dorian, E Phrygian, etc.. Modes of the same root as C Major (the parallel modes of C Major) will sound plenty different and (careful) use of them will bring out their mode-ness. In the Classical view of music theory (the school of thought that I general belong to), this technique is rarely thought of as modal in anyway but that's besides the point. The point I really want to get across to you is that in C Major, everything is C something. D Dorian doesn't exist because the song is in C.

In response to your recent post: Modern views of modality says yes, C Dorian is perfectly acceptable in C Major. Some of would rather not call it C Dorian, but what really matters is that b3 and a b7 are being used where they normally wouldn't.

There are placing where modern modality takes breaks from all that I've said. Wait until you really know what you're doing before you get there.
Now that I'm thinking of modes more as scales, I can piece most if it together now

If I understand the modern viewpoint of Modality, then what would be modal to Classical music?
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#32
Quote by 7grant2
That means throwing in those chords that uses 7ths, 9ths, etc, will naturally modulate you to a different key, interesting.

I don't mean extensions of chords. If you try to play in E locrian, you could use an E diminished chord as a vamp. Try vamping that chord. Then after a few measures, play an F major chord. Suddenly, the E loses it's role as the root and becomes the leading tone of F major. Go back to E diminished and you'll see it's not the same anymore.

Of course, these problems can be avoided with creative melody and song structure. There aren't really any rules so long as it sounds good to you.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
Last edited by hockeyplayer168 at Aug 3, 2010,
#33
Quote by hockeyplayer168
I don't mean extensions of chords. If you try to play in E locrian, you could use an E diminished chord as a vamp. Try vamping that chord. Then after a few measures, play an F major chord. Suddenly, the E loses it's role as the root and becomes the leading tone of F major. Go back to E diminished and you'll see it's not the same anymore.Of course, these problems can be avoided with creative melody and song structure. There aren't really any rules so long as it sounds good to you.
OH vamping, I see. Yeah I realize that If you shifted to F major that the E diminished would sound like the leading tone to F. As for avoiding these problems I'll be careful when writing.
I iz moderatin teh forums on this site.
#34
Quote by 7grant2
Now that I'm thinking of modes more as scales, I can piece most if it together now

If I understand the modern viewpoint of Modality, then what would be modal to Classical music?


Modes are kind of fancy name for a certain set of scales. The reason we discourage calling them scales is because people think that they can use scale interchangeably and then that idea moves onto modes.

Modes were not used in Classical music. When I say Classical view, I mean how modes are viewed in Classical theory -- alien.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#35
Quote by 7grant2
OH vamping, I see. Yeah I realize that If you shifted to F major that the E diminished would sound like the leading tone to F. As for avoiding these problems I'll be careful when writing.

Satch has SO many examples of modal vamping...are you familiar with that aspect of his works?
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#36
Quote by hockeyplayer168
Satch has SO many examples of modal vamping...are you familiar with that aspect of his works?
Satriani! Do I ever! Yes that is my playlist of my favorite songs by him xD He is my all time favorite artist.

Quote by Eastwinn
Modes are kind of fancy name for a certain set of scales. The reason we discourage calling them scales is because people think that they can use scale interchangeably and then that idea moves onto modes.

Modes were not used in Classical music. When I say Classical view, I mean how modes are viewed in Classical theory -- alien.
I understand the difference between a scale and a mode, so I get the idea. But still explain the Classical view please, I don't like knowing that there are two ways of going about using Modes and knowing only one.
I iz moderatin teh forums on this site.
#37
Quote by 7grant2
Satriani! Do I ever! Yes that is my playlist of my favorite songs by him xD He is my all time favorite artist.

Yeah I figured from your avatar.

But yeah studying his music would be a great place to see modern modes in use.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
#38
Quote by hockeyplayer168
Yeah I figured from your avatar.

But yeah studying his music would be a great place to see modern modes in use.
I've been studying his music for at least three years then lol, I have grown to love his music. Thats who I'd like to be someday But I will try to hear the modal tones in his music.
I iz moderatin teh forums on this site.
#39
Quote by 7grant2
I understand the difference between a scale and a mode, so I get the idea. But still explain the Classical view please, I don't like knowing that there are two ways of going about using Modes and knowing only one.


The Classical view of modes (which is a name I just made up, mind you) is where the mode name must also describe the tonic of the piece, and the melody must be strictly diatonic within that mode. This is the way things were done before tonality. Here's a sample of D Aeolian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRsDgtqtx5Q
i don't know why i feel so dry
#40
Quote by 7grant2
I've been studying his music for at least three years then lol, I have grown to love his music. Thats who I'd like to be someday But I will try to hear the modal tones in his music.

No doubt. You can look up a lot of it online. Flying in a Blue Dream is mostly C lydian, which is really interesting to play in.
Oh yeah.

Quote by hildesaw
A minor is the saddest of all keys.

EDIT: D minor is the saddest of all keys.
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