#1
Hello everyone!

does anyone have any tips on which guitar scales would be best to use to solo over a jazz progression? I'm trying to add some jazz flavor to some of my music.
#2
Question: Do you listen to jazz or do you just want to add "some jazz flavor" because everyone on the internet is always on talking about it?
i don't know why i feel so dry
#3
Creating a specific flavor to your music/solos actually has very little to do with what scales you use. No scale will single-handedly make your solos sound jazzy.

Solution to your problem: Listen to and study jazz, try to look at why it sounds the way it does.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#5
Quote by slayerfrk
chromatic scale, thatll get you that jazz sound lol.
Sorry, but not at all.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#6
Quote by food1010
Creating a specific flavor to your music/solos actually has very little to do with what scales you use. No scale will single-handedly make your solos sound jazzy.

Solution to your problem: Listen to and study jazz, try to look at why it sounds the way it does.
I myself have been wondering how to solo in Jazz. From what I have been learning of Jazz I'm pretty sure it has to do with emphasizing the current chord progression you are soloing in. So far thats the most I have gotten out of my studies for Jazz soloing :/
I iz moderatin teh forums on this site.
#7
not meaning to be elitist, but jazz is highly complex, and it takes a little more than using a specific scale or chord progression to add a jazz flavor - try taking a song by miles davis or thelonious monk and dissecting how each chord works in relation to the next, what notes you would play over each chord and get a feel for how they get their sound

apart from that, listen to a S**T LOAD of jazz
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#8
actually, depending on the miles song you can get away with one or two scales (imo the best stuff he wrote imo the best stuff he wrote is modal). for handling tonal jazz, no one scales will help.
learning your major and melodic and harmonic scales and all their modes will give you most of the scales you'l use. the blues scale and bebop scales (scales with certain passing tones, natural 3 on minor 7, natural 7 on dominant and flat 6 on major 7, theres also one for minor seven flat five chords, but i and don't know it) can get you a good sound as well.
you also need to bring out the sound of chord changes. learning to outline chords is very important (emphasizing 3rds and sevenths, placing chord tones on beats one and three or on the on beats for starters).
to really get a jazz sound though, you need to listen to a lot of jazz and learn your favorite solos off the records.
also, read this (third time ive linked it tonight)
http://www.outsideshore.com/primer/primer/
#9
There isn't a specific "Jazz scale" that will make you sound jazzy. Playing jazz guitar is about a few different things. Firstly, your tone... don't use much crunch (a little might be ok no distortion though). Secondly there are techniques, sliding is much more prevalent than bending for example, but nothing is really off limits, sweeping is also a jazz favorite.

The most important thing that goes into play jazz though, and what you're actually looking for is the actual melodic part of playing jazz. There is no jazz scale as I said before, the way jazz guys get their sound is by playing inside the chord changes. This is best achieved by using modes. (If you don't know modes, you have no hope of playing jazz and need to go learn what modes are). For example:
If you are playing a song thats in C major and you have a II V I progression (the most basic and prevalent progression in jazz and pop music history) that would look like D-7 G7 C. Now what you play is D dorian (as you are on the D-7 chord), G mixolydian (when on the G7 chord), C ionian (when hitting the tonic). Now obviously this is the MOST basic jazz progression/use of modes. There are MANY MANY modes. Theres the modes of major, melodic minor, harmonic minor... all different, all useful, all creating unique sounds... learning jazz is like falling down the rabbit hole brutha, you gotta be ready to accept ALOT of information... jazz ISN'T easy.
*Official Deadhead*

The times they are a-changin'
#10
Quote by trey-col89


If you are playing a song thats in C major and you have a II V I progression (the most basic and prevalent progression in jazz and pop music history) that would look like D-7 G7 C. Now what you play is D dorian (as you are on the D-7 chord), G mixolydian (when on the G7 chord), C ionian (when hitting the tonic). Now obviously this is the MOST basic jazz progression/use of modes. There are MANY MANY modes. Theres the modes of major, melodic minor, harmonic minor... all different, all useful, all creating unique sounds... learning jazz is like falling down the rabbit hole brutha, you gotta be ready to accept ALOT of information... jazz ISN'T easy.


Thinking like that during chord progression amounts to constantly changing the key of the song and that is not useful.
#11
For starters learn lots of arpeggios, swing rhythms and find some jazz players you really like.
Also, experiment with chords, phrases that don't fit into the same key and find what sounds good, then try to solo over it or fit a backing rhythm into it.

Maybe find some books about jazz theory and stuff.
#12
Quote by trey-col89

If you are playing a song thats in C major and you have a II V I progression (the most basic and prevalent progression in jazz and pop music history) that would look like D-7 G7 C. Now what you play is D dorian (as you are on the D-7 chord), G mixolydian (when on the G7 chord), C ionian (when hitting the tonic). Now obviously this is the MOST basic jazz progression/use of modes. There are MANY MANY modes. Theres the modes of major, melodic minor, harmonic minor... all different, all useful, all creating unique sounds... learning jazz is like falling down the rabbit hole brutha, you gotta be ready to accept ALOT of information... jazz ISN'T easy.


That doesn't work. If you want to get away with using modes in that progression you always have to play them in C. It's not "correct" use of modes at all but the progression would be Dm7(#5) - G7(b5) - Cmaj7 (I think, I may have made a quick mistake).

You're free to solo in the different modes using that progression, but it really doesn't sound too great. Borrowing tones doesn't always work, and you have to be careful when doing it. Changing tonics every chord like that isn't how you should use modes though.
#13
Quote by Sóknardalr
That doesn't work. If you want to get away with using modes in that progression you always have to play them in C. It's not "correct" use of modes at all but the progression would be Dm7(#5) - G7(b5) - Cmaj7 (I think, I may have made a quick mistake).

You're free to solo in the different modes using that progression, but it really doesn't sound too great. Borrowing tones doesn't always work, and you have to be careful when doing it. Changing tonics every chord like that isn't how you should use modes though.



your safest bet, is to use chord tones - and work from there
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#14
Quote by Sóknardalr
That doesn't work. If you want to get away with using modes in that progression you always have to play them in C. It's not "correct" use of modes at all but the progression would be Dm7(#5) - G7(b5) - Cmaj7 (I think, I may have made a quick mistake).

You're free to solo in the different modes using that progression, but it really doesn't sound too great. Borrowing tones doesn't always work, and you have to be careful when doing it. Changing tonics every chord like that isn't how you should use modes though.

No I'm afraid you're wrong, what I have said about playing dorian mixolydian ionian of a -II V I is correct. And how does playing that scale that correlates with the chord going by not work? Explain that to me.... I'm not changing tonics at all.... D dorian and G mixolydian are both related to C ionian... so if a song is in C major and there is a D-7 in the tune you are free to... and most likely going to use D dorian over that D-7 chord (or... a C major scale starting and ending on D). Same thing with G Mixolydian (C major scale from G to G) and the G7 chord. I am 100 percent certain I am right. Where are you getting this D-7(#5) G7(b5) nonsense from? You've never heard of a basic -II7 V7 I?
*Official Deadhead*

The times they are a-changin'
Last edited by trey-col89 at Aug 9, 2010,
#15
You are correct, sir! When talking about non-diatonic music such as jazz, scales do change to suit every chord, even if they have the same notes.
#16
Quote by timeconsumer09
You are correct, sir! When talking about non-diatonic music such as jazz, scales do change to suit every chord, even if they have the same notes.


Yeah, the more unmanageably non-diatonic a progression becomes, the better off you'd be thinking of the chords as little islands. The theory doesn't really change, it's just a good way to organize everything in your head. Without shifting scales for every chord, you'd never have the brain power to be able to improvise over a complicated non-diatonic progression. When you've got all the time in the world composing, thinking of each chord as a separate entity isn't necessary, but not a bad idea.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#17
Quote by Eastwinn
Yeah, the more unmanageably non-diatonic a progression becomes, the better off you'd be thinking of the chords as little islands. The theory doesn't really change, it's just a good way to organize everything in your head. Without shifting scales for every chord, you'd never have the brain power to be able to improvise over a complicated non-diatonic progression. When you've got all the time in the world composing, thinking of each chord as a separate entity isn't necessary, but not a bad idea.

Its not thinking of each chord as a seperate entity. You are still playing the same scale over the D-7 G7 and C. D dorian G mixolydian and C ionian are ALL THE SAME SCALE (just starting on different notes). So you're not really "shifting" scales. And its not too complicated, have you ever thought about how many years and how many hours a day those insane jazz guys like Parker and Coltrane practiced? You're telling me that Coltrane used the same scale over a whole tune? NEVER... go back and transcribe a Coltrane or Parker solo if you can and you'll realize that they and many other jazzers play inside the changes, thats what keeps their songs interesting for 30 plus minutes.
*Official Deadhead*

The times they are a-changin'
#18
Dude I don't even know what you're trying to argue.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#20
Quote by sardus1134
Hello everyone!

does anyone have any tips on which guitar scales would be best to use to solo over a jazz progression? I'm trying to add some jazz flavor to some of my music.


sounding jazzy isn't as simple as plugging in the "jazz" scale.


You 1st need to develop an appreciation for the music, otherwise no scale (regardless of how fancy the name sounds) is going to help you.


start with the music........... Start by listening.............


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXvdU7f-q7I

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlIU-2N7WY4
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 10, 2010,
#21
Quote by trey-col89
D dorian G mixolydian and C ionian are ALL THE SAME SCALE (just starting on different notes).
As was said in the other thread, this is wrong.

D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian are NOT all the same scale, they are all different scales (they have different names for a reason!).

It seems your teacher (if he has all the credibility you say he does) either accidentally misspoke (or you misunderstood what he said) or he simply hasn't gotten around to explaining modes thoroughly enough yet.

Do you consider the A natural minor scale and the C major scale the same scale? Do you consider the key of A minor and the key of C major one and the same?

They are not, because their tonal center is different. It is the same concept with modes. C ionian and E phrygian are not the same scale. One resolves to C and contains the intervals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, while the other resolves to E and contains the intervals 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. There is a big difference between the two. Sure they contain the same notes, but you can almost think of that as a "coincidence." That's a rather odd way to think of their relativity, but it might help you to understand them better.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#22
As was said in the other thread, this is wrong.

D dorian, G mixolydian and C ionian are NOT all the same scale, they are all different scales (they have different names for a reason!).

It seems your teacher (if he has all the credibility you say he does) either accidentally misspoke (or you misunderstood what he said) or he simply hasn't gotten around to explaining modes thoroughly enough yet.

Do you consider the A natural minor scale and the C major scale the same scale? Do you consider the key of A minor and the key of C major one and the same?

They are not, because their tonal center is different. It is the same concept with modes. C ionian and E phrygian are not the same scale. One resolves to C and contains the intervals 1 2 3 4 5 6 7, while the other resolves to E and contains the intervals 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7. There is a big difference between the two. Sure they contain the same notes, but you can almost think of that as a "coincidence." That's a rather odd way to think of their relativity, but it might help you to understand them better.


When thinking about soloing and playing jazz and playing over changes, scales are thought of less as a tonal center which demands resolution and more as an available pool of notes. The names are used more to put a name to the sound. If your playing a ii-V to C Major you could think Dorian, Mixolydian Ionian (and I would) or you could also think C Major. You could also think A natural minor, if thats an easier for you (though I don't know why it would be) and you resolve to C. You could also think just D dorian over the whole progression or just G mixolydian.
Your not playing modally, your using the scale as a way to think of a bunch of notes to fit over chords, and the most effective way to think of how to hit them. A C Major scale becomes not about going from C-C but a pitch collection containing C D E F G A B C.
#23
Quote by tehREALcaptain
When thinking about soloing and playing jazz and playing over changes, scales are thought of less as a tonal center which demands resolution and more as an available pool of notes. The names are used more to put a name to the sound. If your playing a ii-V to C Major you could think Dorian, Mixolydian Ionian (and I would) or you could also think C Major. You could also think A natural minor, if thats an easier for you (though I don't know why it would be) and you resolve to C. You could also think just D dorian over the whole progression or just G mixolydian.
Your not playing modally, your using the scale as a way to think of a bunch of notes to fit over chords, and the most effective way to think of how to hit them. A C Major scale becomes not about going from C-C but a pitch collection containing C D E F G A B C.
I myself assign great importance to the tonal center. I like to understand how all the notes relate to the tonic, rather than simply which notes I can use. It gives me much more melodic control and ability to manipulate the sounds.

I can't see why anyone would prefer to avoid this information for any reason other than simplicity.



Edit: Then again, when you are getting into more complex/chromatic changes (particularly with extensions/alterations) you primarily want to know the chord tones and how they relate to each other (as well as how they relate to the other chords), but then (in my opinion) the next step is to understand how the changes progress.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Aug 10, 2010,
#24
I myself assign great importance to the tonal center. I like to understand how all the notes relate to the tonic, rather than simply which notes I can use. It gives me much more melodic control and ability to manipulate the sounds.

I can't see why anyone would prefer to avoid this information for any reason other than simplicity.


Edit: Then again, when you are getting into more complex/chromatic changes (particularly with extensions/alterations) you primarily want to know the chord tones and how they relate to each other (as well as how they relate to the other chords), but then (in my opinion) the next step is to understand how the changes progress.


I understand that and its not wrong, and if it works for you, then more power to you. However, when you get to songs with lots of non functional harmony, where chords are not quickly moving (like Inner Urge or Juju or Dolphin Dance or E.S.P or tons of other songs written from 1960-now), the idea of using chord-scales becomes much more appealing. On simpler tunes both methods work, and on bebop tunes chord-scales become innapropriate because they will not get you the correct sound. but, when beginning to play standards they offer a musician the chance to play melodically, inside the changes and avoid wrong notes while building a habbit that will be beneficial when they get to more challenging, more modern repetoire.

As to your comment on simplicity, when thinking of theory I think the simplist explanation, (well, when regarding theory regarding improvisation anyway) the one that requires the least amount of thought is the best, as if your thinking too much when your improvising you will not adequatly make the changes (most of the time) and will not be making music, you'll be playing notes.
#25
Quote by tehREALcaptain
As to your comment on simplicity, when thinking of theory I think the simplist explanation, (well, when regarding theory regarding improvisation anyway) the one that requires the least amount of thought is the best, as if your thinking too much when your improvising you will not adequatly make the changes (most of the time) and will not be making music, you'll be playing notes.
True. I actually try to play by ear as much as possible (I'm not very good at thinking through the changes as I play).
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#26
No one has mentioned playing outside the changes yet. This will sound very jazzy, especially when you resolve back. For example on a ii-V-I playing inside the changes no the ii, and then play outside on the V. By outside I mean playing dissonant notes, for example play a diminished scale over the V or an altered dominant (7th mode of melodic minor). Then resolve back to the I chord.
"I wanna see movies of my dreams"
#27
Ima play the Devils advocate here and tell you to learn Melodic minor and mess around with that.
Not saying it is THE Jazz scale but if you're going into Jazz it's kinda staple, and a lot of musicians associate it with Jazz.
Needless to say it won't work as well as you think if you try to use it like your basic scales.

Learn your harmony.
#29
Quote by AndrewSchaeffer
Tenor sax = Bb
guitar = C
a lot of transcribed work for guitar on real book and fake book (guitar) are in C


Fixed. Alto sax is Eb.
#30
Quote by timeconsumer09
Fixed. Alto sax is Eb.
As is bari.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#31
The jazz scale of course. The Bb jazz scale is A, Q, 7#, <3, E#, Cb, and 0. Just move the root around for whatever key you're in.
#32
Quote by aCloudConnected
The jazz scale of course. The Bb jazz scale is A, Q, 7#, <3, E#, Cb, and 0. Just move the root around for whatever key you're in.


But if you're playing over a Qdim6 chord, be sure to switch to the second mode of the jazz scale, the Q floccinaucinihilipilificating scale #2: Q, 7#, ♥, E#, Cb, 0, A
i don't know why i feel so dry
#34
Just listen to a lot of jazz and try to study it a lot. I can name a few scales that fit with jazz such as pentatonic, harmonic and melodic minors and majors but you really need to listen to a lot of jazz and experiment as jazz is a very big subject if you know what I mean.
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