#1
*AlanHB* edited to make discussion more streamline.

Do you guys think that music theory is being somewhat neglected by guitarists and/or teachers these days?
#2
Rarely do you find a musician who knows absolutely 0 music theory, and if you do its uncommon that they aren't willing to improve their musical knowledge. Joe Jonas probably knows sufficient theory to write the music he does. Or the guy who writes the music for them does
#4
Quote by TacoSaladMan


But, really, do you guys think that music theory is being somewhat neglected by guitarists and/or teachers these days?


Yes, but in some cases, it's over emphasized. Just think of kids who jump right from learning to pick, to trying to figure out Metallica songs. They are always missing crucial steps to smothly progress.

Now, kids learn how to plug the guitar in, then jump right to extended arpeggios. I think that this robs them of emotion and individualliy in playing. Some theory guys I know sound sooooo stuffy
#5
Quote by salgala2000
My knowledge of theory is advanced for how terrible my playing is


I just caught this after I posted

Keep it up though, you'll find your groove!!
#6
I has years of classical music training before I started guitar, so my theory is quite advanced. However, I don't really use it all that much when I play or compose or whatever.
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#7
I didn't think about theory when I started playing, and don't know much still. Just basics. I suppose its a natural progression of being self taught; You just want to get to playing stuff. At least that's what I was like.
#8
Maybe my experience with other guitarists has been a bit off then. Because I've actually met more guitarists who are on the side of being able to play plenty of songs and chords fine, but have no idea what they're actually doing. They just "play what sounds good" all the time. I've met people who play a Asus4 to a Dm9 to Em and have no idea what chords they just played, they just know the progression "sounds good".

But, I guess everyone's opinion on it will decided by who they've met. I personally have yet to meet a guitarist with a great knowledge of theory and very sloppy technique.
#9
Im sure joe jonas knows enough theory to write songs. the Jonas brothers seem more like a band that writes lyrically with no goal of becoming virtuosos.
I personally hate them because I am a hater and hate any one near my age and making millions of dollars.

Honestly, many guitarist don't learn theory simply because it is not in their goals. I am self taught but my goals are what pushed me to learn the ins and out of my instrument.

Its all about what you wanna do and who you wanna be as a player.
#10
Quote by TacoSaladMan
So, I went to the library today and looked for some music theory books. I type "music theory" into the search bar on the computer there and the first book that comes up is written by Joe freaking Jonas The end is near people. The end is near.

a joke right? If not, thats a shame, but so is not looking beyond that 1st book to realize there are plenty of books on the subject, and by credible authors.

Quote by TacoSaladMan

But, really, do you guys think that music theory is being somewhat neglected by guitarists and/or teachers these days?


No, I don't believe so.

the way I see it...... if you want to study it, then study it. There should be no reason though to have any kind of negative view of musicians that choose not to. IMO that kind of elitist attitude is a sign of insecurity, and benefits no-one.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 9, 2010,
#11
Quote by Axim Bassist
Honestly, many guitarist don't learn theory simply because it is not in their goals. I am self taught but my goals are what pushed me to learn the ins and out of my instrument.

Its all about what you wanna do and who you wanna be as a player.
That's very insightful. Points to you man.
Quote by GuitarMunky
a joke right?
Sadly, no.
Quote by GuitarMunky
No, I don't believe so.

the way I see it...... if you want to study it, then study it. There should be no reason though to have any kind of negative view of musicians that find success without it.
That's a good point. I was really just looking for opinions, I don't have anything against people who can play great without alot of theory.
One day met a and he was all like because he had
never met a before. I told about the powers that this
possessed and he proceeded to it for its magical meat.
Then died. The End.
#12
Quote by TacoSaladMan
That's very insightful. Points to you man.
Sadly, no.
.


yeah, that IS sad. A way to milk the cow for all its worth before it dies.
shred is gaudy music
#13
Interesting. A google search reveals NO BOOKS written by Joe Jonas.

Troll thread?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#14
Quote by AlanHB
Interesting. A google search reveals NO BOOKS written by Joe Jonas.

Troll thread?
My mistake in the OP, after getting back on the library site apparently it was Nick Jonas (who cares to tell them apart anyways?) and it was a book on CD. Are we good?
One day met a and he was all like because he had
never met a before. I told about the powers that this
possessed and he proceeded to it for its magical meat.
Then died. The End.
#15
Quote by TacoSaladMan
My mistake in the OP, after getting back on the library site apparently it was Nick Jonas (who cares to tell them apart anyways?) and it was a book on CD. Are we good?


Still not getting anything. What's the name of the book?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
Alright, it's called "Who I Am". Which is apparently an album, not a book on CD like the library site says. I didn't read too far into it while I was actually there earlier, but thought it was really funny, thus posted it here hoping to share my experience. Sorry that the specifics made it a problem.

Nonetheless, I still find the fact that a Jonas CD was the top hit for "music theory" entertaining.
One day met a and he was all like because he had
never met a before. I told about the powers that this
possessed and he proceeded to it for its magical meat.
Then died. The End.
#17
That would be a fail then, and a needless excuse to rat on the Jonas Brothers.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#18
Then feel free to delete it. Your call.
One day met a and he was all like because he had
never met a before. I told about the powers that this
possessed and he proceeded to it for its magical meat.
Then died. The End.
#19
Quote by HalfDose
Now, kids learn how to plug the guitar in, then jump right to extended arpeggios. I think that this robs them of emotion and individualliy in playing. Some theory guys I know sound sooooo stuffy


They're still not learning theory. What they're doing is practicing. It's not robbing them of anything, it's just making their fingers more nimble. I don't see the problem.

What does bug me are the people that say theory is crap.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#20
Quote by Eastwinn
They're still not learning theory. What they're doing is practicing. It's not robbing them of anything, it's just making their fingers more nimble. I don't see the problem.

What does bug me are the people that say theory is crap.
Yes, this for sure.
One day met a and he was all like because he had
never met a before. I told about the powers that this
possessed and he proceeded to it for its magical meat.
Then died. The End.
#21
I think theory is really important. i'm self taught and since I started learning theory my playing as advanced by leaps and bounds. I make a point to pick up any and every book on music that I can find to try to further my knowledge about the way music works and why it works that way.
#22
Quote by TacoSaladMan
Then feel free to delete it. Your call.


Meh, I just edited it so this wouldn't turn into a flame thread - everybody wins!

OT: Is it neglected? Well it's hard to learn theory without having a purpose to do so. If you're a bedroom jammer, learning tabs and not keen to create, improvise or play music with other people, I see very little reason as to why you would learn theory. I personally didn't see the point in learning scales until I realised that I needed them to improvise solos. I've never learnt any theory just because it's the thing to do - it's always been because I've recognised a need to learn in my own playing. If someone doesn't see this need, I don't see why they would/should learn theory.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#23
Quote by salgala2000
My knowledge of theory is advanced for how terrible my playing is


Same

In most cases, unless you have lessons then you're going to neglect theory as it's difficult to learn by yourself, and that's assuming you're motivated and going to take it seriously to begin with - that and you just wanna play guitar really, that's why you bought it.

I played happily for about 5 years before getting into any real theory, and I remember it seeming impossible to begin with. Theory looks too complicated for a lot of players as they usually try and digest it all at once, I remember when I purchased this lick book and it seemed like "This lick is in F#m and makes light work of the III and VI of the #b9&*(%&^ and of course features heavily on the sub dominant diatonic phrygian galgameck fusion whole tone #12 of the..." and it was like

Most of the guys I know that play don't know any theory, not even the correct names of power chords - it'd be like "Yo, dawg, play an F#5 on that part" and they'll just look at you "....and what fret is that on?"
Last edited by Calibos at Aug 10, 2010,
#25
I'd say modern music has a lot of problems, but music theory isn't it. I think most pop artists know...basic music theory. Like they understand the major scale, how to make a chord progression and a melody in key, but they typically don't know anything about modes or intervals. I'm not criticising them for that, or I would be a hypocrite, because my knowledge of music theory isn't all that great either.

I think the problem with modern pop is they take bands like The Beatles the wrong way. I mean who actually likes the entire album "Please Please Me"? I listened to the whole thing and I can say I appreciated it but didn't like it...If that makes sense. My point is, where a lot of early pop-rock (by that I mean the first few rock bands considered to be pop-friendly) had an almost ironic or sarcastic mood (which I think only MGMT has been able to replicate), modern pop bands don't understand that and instead think "catchy rhythm, rhyming, simple lyrics, etc." and think create music with similar instrumentation but with an opposite atmosphere.

Another problem would be all the dishonest people who don't admit they're playing a fake genre. Like there are pop artists who describe themselves as country, I'm sure that's offensive to true country musicians. RnB has that same problem.

But what it all comes down to is the listener. Lately, people think less, we're more and more hypnotized by whatever we see on TV, we're getting smaller and smaller attention spans, and nobody really likes to think anymore. This trend causes people to listen to this kind of music which requires, not necessarily less thought, but thinking on a different level. Pop music can have deep meaning and cause deep thought, but there's usually not complex meaning or critical thinking involved. There's even a statistical side to this, if you look up how many books are bought a year versus how many DVDs, well actually there are more books, but the number of books bought is slowly decreasing, and the DVDs are increasing. Movies typically (but not always, none of this is meant to be thought of as "always") take much less critical or analytical thinking than books. Deep thinking, yes, movies may even be better at causing deep thought because you can see the impact on the characters of whatever event is happening, but deep thinking or deep emotion isn't the same as critical or analytical thinking. There's also less abstract or "trippy" thought going on these days, explaining the decline in psychedelic music.

Now 1 thing I wanna make relly clear about all these points, when I talk about music inspiring critical thought, I neither mean theoretically or from the lyrics/meaning. I mean more like the way people of higher education (in my experience, just mine, you can probably prove this wrong, I'm speaking solely about the people who I know personally) tend to think of music in a different way and listen to things that usually don't do that well in the mainstream. Like...Certain music can just make you think in different ways...Its a really dificult concept to explain but if you listen to The Mars Volta 100% sober and it still really trips you out and you THINK intensely about it, you might know what I mean. If you just get high and it takes you on a "journey" I'm not criticising you but that's just not the same kind of thinking. Or if you just space out during the long songs and realize later "oh, is this the chorus?" thats also not the same kind of thinking. And I use them as an example because Omar claims to know no theory, so you'll understand its nt a theoretical perspective. Another band I'd recommend for more "trippy" thoght (but not necessarily critical or analytical thought) is Heavy Winged. And then, more for the lyrics (although their instrumentation is also amzing), the RX Bandits can totally give you a different perspective on many political or social type subjects (if you're truely open-minded).


So I know nobody's read this entire thing, but these are all my thoughts on modern pop music, I like to type all my thoughts out. Telling me nobody is going to read all that would be pointless, telling me I have no life would only make sense if I wasn't at my dad's place in Elk Grove at 11:30 at night with nothing else to do. And I know I sound like a dick in most of thi, but these are just my views.
#26
Depends on a lot of things really. It might be hard for some people to believe, but some of us enjoy studying music theoretically. If you weren't interested in it, you wouldn't study it. Music doesn't have to be an academic thing for everyone. Hell, just start looking at the way some different cultures treat music.

In some ways, it comes down to what your goals are in regard to music, but ultimately, I don't see the point in it if you aren't interested. It's good to at least look into it, but who am I to even say that much?
Not a huge fan of bees
#27
Quote by TMVATDI
Holy jeebs wall of text


Well you definitely trigger my analytical thoughts with that wall of text. Doesn't even seem to be flawed beside the fact that I don't see yet how this relates to people not learning theory :P

You saying people dont wanna think and just do?
#28
Quote by pandora_grunt
Well you definitely trigger my analytical thoughts with that wall of text. Doesn't even seem to be flawed beside the fact that I don't see yet how this relates to people not learning theory :P

You saying people dont wanna think and just do?

Um haha i'm saying people dont want to think critically, so they instead listen to kinds of music that are easy to think about. The modern pop fan likes simplicity, so their thoughts can be simple, but a fan of classical, jazz, prog rock, etc., is likely (not definitely, but likely) a more critical thinker with more complex thoughts.

And I sarted out saying pop musicians do know a decent amount of music theory, then just continued to explain what their other flaws are and why it can seem like they don't know theory or don't know what they're doing.

edit: and im not saying fans of pop are dumb, or that critical thinkers are smarter, they're just different ways to think, most people perfer not to think critically and that doesn't make them stupid, just kind of...a little lazy
Last edited by TMVATDI at Aug 21, 2010,
#29
Oh I see. Yeah this other way of thinking. I atcually like pop because I look at it "critically". Sometimes those basic pop songs are more intrecate then one might suspect :P

But yeah you do get away with a lot as a pop artist these days.
#30
Quote by TMVATDI

edit: and im not saying fans of pop are dumb, or that critical thinkers are smarter, they're just different ways to think, most people perfer not to think critically and that doesn't make them stupid, just kind of...a little lazy


But you can think critical of pop music as well.

*I will use the term "musical(ly)" as a way to describe harmonic/melodic concepts and other concepts that fall under the descriptive form of Music Theory"

Classical or jazz music are more complex and thought out *Musically, while Pop music revolves more around multiple concepts of Music/sound.

A very superficial example of this would be playing a guitar riff on a 30 watt SS amp and then on for example a Marshall 100 watt JCM stack.

If you hear it on the Marshall you probably want to listen to it more then if heard on the SS amp, though both are *musically exactly the same.

Yes this concept also applies to; for example playing dynamics of classical guitar and piano playing ( as well as on other instruments), but there the focus is double-sided on both audio and musical.

Pop music focuses more on the audio concept; Within this view there are other criteria to take into consideration; like musical production, mixing, "catchiness", and getting the most Tone out of a singer.

Another important aspect is what I would call the Psychological factor.

Within this concept falls the latest hype in music;

- using old soul music sampling techniques (think Kanye West)
- The "eastern instrumentation" Hype ; (Think 50 cent in da club or other "arabeque" flavour in sound)
- The "brass" hype (Speaks for itself)
- The auto-tune hype
- The "string" (&piano) hype

and the current hype;
The "pseudo rock(&band) pop artist" or "Disney Hype"; Jonas Brothers, Miley Cyrus etc.

..as well as the way a singer sings.

Then we haven't even started on audio/visual which are movie clips, but this concept also applies in movie scoring.

And off course the way an Artist is presented.

And more concepts which I cba to list.

These concepts go more in depth, and is just intended as list to show that Pop music is probably more critically looked at by "the industry" in a horizontal way (multiple facets) then for example jazz or classical music, while you could say that the latter 2 are more critically looked at in a vertical way (musically).

So they are just 2 different views on music where Pop music works from sound in general, while classical/jazz work more from "the western pitch" based theory (music theory) view.


Off course these concepts cross-over and stream together everywhere in the world of music, it's more or less my view on things.

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Last edited by xxdarrenxx at Aug 21, 2010,