#1
so how much extra rated watts should you allow a speaker?

cause my amp is 22 wats and the speaker is 70. 1x12 and when i crank the amp i can easily begin to naturally overdrive it (ie- clean channel sounds pretty crunchy)

somebody in another thread said you should allow 2x speaker power to amp power and that 150 watts (2x75 watt speakers) with a 100 watt tube head would blow the speakers.

so whats the rule of thumb?

does this matter more with small amps that you crank rather than big amps on volume of 4? cause i would always rather run smaller amps to get more natural effects from pushing the tubes and components.
#2
I believe it should be at least twice the wattage of the head. If you have a 150 watt amp you really don't need a 300 watt cab though, I mean, no one will ever crank a triple recto.
#3
Depends on what speakers you get and the amp. There isnt really a general rule of thumb with the max wattage an amp can put out and how much power the speakers can handle. Depends on the valves, how hot they run and circuitry and how the company rates the amps/speakers.

Ive heard EL34 amps are more capable of going well over the RMS than say a EL84 driven amp.

You also have to factor in the equation that speaker companies usually rate their speakers conservately too. Like celestion for example are very conservative, the 25 watt greenback is capable of handling peaks at around 50 watts. Though not all companies are as conservative as celestion though.

And then take into consideration the fact that your amp isnt going to be putting out its max wattage all the time (unless you dime it all the OFC), playing at bedroom volumes you'd probably be using like 5% of its capabilities volume wise, so you dont necissarily need a really highly rated speaker.

All this "you need twice the power of your amp in your speakers" is pretty dramatized really.

Id say, the power of your amp + 1/3 would give you enough breathing room really. And if for some reason you ever actually crank to 10 maybe a 1/2 on top instead.
#4
Bull, nobody in their right mind will ever run their amp with the volume at 10, no matter what amp it is, it'll sound like crap.

That's a safe rule to follow, but for your 22 watt amp, you will not blow say, a 30 watt speaker, no matter how hard you try, you might wear it out pretty fast, but you will never blow it out.
#5
well for example i jam over a drum kit. i run it like master of 7-8 and channel at like 7 (or max the channel and run master lower depending how i want teh amp to sound)

so over a drum kit i drive it pretty hard. again, enought to naturally push it into pretty heavy overdrive on the clean channel and its a 70 watt speaker. there must be a reason they put 70 watts into a 22 watt amp.

but reading stuff like that just started me thinking....

but i can understand larger amps. so mucvh power you really dont NEED to turn them that loud. smaller amps you need to crank. and i want to crank them to get that cranked tube sound
#6
Because its rated 22 watts RMS, thats clean volume, once the amp starts to break up youve allready gone past 22 watts. The amp will likely get to around 40 watts cranked to 10.
#7
oh reallay!?! nice. didnt know you could crank that kind of power out of my little bugger.

well what about the opposite effect? what if i put a 150 watt eminence wizard in my amp opposed to the 70 watt stock speaker?

would sound come through more clearly? would it distort less? how does overpowering with a speaker affect the amp?
#8
Overpowering a speaker produces speaker distortion, which is very different from preamp distortion. It's closer to power tube distortion in that it's a very loose and raunchy sound.

You don't necessarily need to be 2x the amp's wattage to be safe. I run a Warehouse Veteran 30, which is 60 watts handling, in my Valveking 112, which is 50 watts, and I'm fine with it. Most speakers can handle more than they're rated, because they're rated conservatively to ensure they're not placed under a load they can't handle.
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#9
yeah buy what about doing the opposite, like a 150 watt speaker in my 22 watt?
#11
It won't make your sound clearer. That's more a characteristic of the speaker's voice coil than its wattage handling, but you'll be very far from speaker distortion with a 150w speaker and a 22w amp.
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
What the hell is a G&L.



Quote by Flux'D
Gay & Lesbian I think, the box smelled funny
Greg what did you send me??
#12
right. so what does that mean. less overall distortion? being able to play clearer at louder volumes?

being able to play better sounding distortion at louder volumes? tighter heavier distortion?

and in this case, the wizard has a sensitivity of like 101.5.....so yeah it would be LOUDER. god knows what standard bugera sensitivity is. the lowest? in the 80s? idunno.

has anybody in here moved to a bigger wattage speaker? what effect did it have?
#14
Quote by phoenix_crush
I believe it should be at least twice the wattage of the head.


that is a great recipe for flat speaker response. some people prefer something with a bit more developement and character.

If you have a 150 watt amp you really don't need a 300 watt cab though


i don't see why that is the case? why would you need a 300 watt cab for a 150 watt head. and if you needed to double the wattage handling rating of speaker, then why wouldn't they just halve the rating of the speaker? why would they have you go through such a practice to properly 'rate' their speakers?

why would old vox ac30's come with only (2) celestion blues with a total rating of only 30 watts. according to your rule, the appropriate speaker setup would be a 4x12 of blues instead... yet i don't hear people complaining about speaker blowing in their AC30's...

You also have to factor in the equation that speaker companies usually rate their speakers conservately too. Like celestion for example are very conservative, the 25 watt greenback is capable of handling peaks at around 50 watts. Though not all companies are as conservative as celestion though.


most are though, guitar speakers are 'beat-up' boys of the speaker world. i mean, we don't even use a crossover to isolate frequencies. great addition becky. most people don't seem to know this.

in other words, a 25 watt speaker will handle a 25 watt amp just fine. even if the tube amp really cranks out around 40 watts when dimes, it'll hold. it'll just wear faster, and decrease the life of the speaker

Bull, nobody in their right mind will ever run their amp with the volume at 10, no matter what amp it is, it'll sound like crap.


be careful where you say 'bull'. i have quite a number of amps that i 'dime', and i am a badass

there must be a reason they put 70 watts into a 22 watt amp

cuz it you already had it sitting around from the OEM and they wanted a flat speaker response? that is why i'd put a 70 watt speaker on a 22 watt amp.

oh reallay!?! nice. didnt know you could crank that kind of power out of my little bugger.


well, it can. tube amps are notorious for good sound when run past their clean rating. solid state amps are notorious for sounding god awful when run past their clean rating.

well what about the opposite effect? what if i put a 150 watt eminence wizard in my amp opposed to the 70 watt stock speaker?

would sound come through more clearly? would it distort less? how does overpowering with a speaker affect the amp?


well, what you'd get is a more flat response across a range of volume. meaning the higher the rating of the speaker, the more the speaker will sound the same at either a high or low volume setting. whereas at 22 watt amp with a 25 watt speaker will change it tone and response much more drastically when volume is increased. 'overpowering' with a speaker won't do anything to an amp.

think about this, if you took a car that tops out at 115 mph and took of the stock tires rated for ~125 mph and replaced them with tires rated for ~220, then how much would you notice? you'd notice more difference between the brand and style of tire than you would between the specifications in that scenario (wherein the car can't approach the top rated speed).

Overpowering a speaker produces speaker distortion, which is very different from preamp distortion. It's closer to power tube distortion in that it's a very loose and raunchy sound.


the 'overpowering' thing is not defined enough, if your speakers are rated less than the amplifier then that is the case. if the speakers are rated more than the amp then see what i wrote just above.

Most speakers can handle more than they're rated, because they're rated conservatively to ensure they're not placed under a load they can't handle.


exactly. becky and rajouita get +1's
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Last edited by gumbilicious at Aug 11, 2010,
#15
SOME comanies rate their speakers at the PEAK level.
Some rate them at RMS level....around 1/2 of peak.
So 1 150 watt speaker might be able to handle 300w PEAK power, the other only 150.
Some amps come with MUCH more room in the speakers (i.e. your 70w speaker in the 22w combo) that is simply because the speaker they chose just happened to be that power rating. Usually, they don't custom build a speaker just for the combo...it's a speakers used elsewhere, and just happens to sound good and/or is cost effective to put in your combo.

Often 4x12 cabs are rated WAY over the capabilities of most any amp...(a 4x12 with Wizards can take 600w!). NOT because they NEED that power handling, but because those same speakers are often put in 1x12 cabs as well.

As for the Wizards, I think the 8ohm 12" is rated at 103dB @ 1 watt/meter.
These have a moderate amount of breakup. Now, there is breakup, and speaker overload. Speaker overload always sounds like crap...breakup sounds good though...more of a harmonic thing the cone is doing...flexing to the power rather than being pushed over the limits.

That particular speaker has a GREAT bottom end, and a VERY strong midrange. Kind of like a vintage 30 on steroids (got the mids, but with less breakup, and more low end, and higher power capabilities). And again, at that sensitivity, it WILL be louder than most other speakers.
To my ears, it is a very clear and articulate speaker, NOT muddy in the least, yet not harsh either.
Ibanez RGR421EXFM, Michael Kelley Vex NV, Ovation Celebrity. Carvin V3
Peavey 412M w/Eminence Wizards & Swamp Thangs, Rocktron Hush Super C, Furman PL-8C,15 band EQ, Boosta grande, ISP Decimator, Dano EQ, Ibanez TBX 150,TC Elec Polytune
#16
i know. thats why i want one. but if it will make my tone FLAT...well F that. if its going to sound good in my 22 watt then ill buy one.

plus, i might buy a 2x12 cab. so i might have 3 12 inch speakers.

potentially, up to 250 watts of handling for my 22 watt (150 watt wizard. 2 well say 50 watt speakers)


would this sound good? or too much power handling?
#17
it will NOT make your tone flat.
How are you planning to wire 3 speakers? what ohm rating are the other speakers.

I don't think there will be too much power handling.
Ibanez RGR421EXFM, Michael Kelley Vex NV, Ovation Celebrity. Carvin V3
Peavey 412M w/Eminence Wizards & Swamp Thangs, Rocktron Hush Super C, Furman PL-8C,15 band EQ, Boosta grande, ISP Decimator, Dano EQ, Ibanez TBX 150,TC Elec Polytune
#18
1 speaker in the combo amp, another 2x12 going into the other output with 2 16 ohm speakers = 8 ohm.

8 ohm stock speaker, 8 ohm cab. switch amp to 4 ohms.

bugera v22 has 2 output jacks, and can go 4,8,16 ohms.
#20
Quote by gumbilicious
that is a great recipe for flat speaker response. some people prefer something with a bit more developement and character.


i don't see why that is the case? why would you need a 300 watt cab for a 150 watt head. and if you needed to double the wattage handling rating of speaker, then why wouldn't they just halve the rating of the speaker? why would they have you go through such a practice to properly 'rate' their speakers?

why would old vox ac30's come with only (2) celestion blues with a total rating of only 30 watts. according to your rule, the appropriate speaker setup would be a 4x12 of blues instead... yet i don't hear people complaining about speaker blowing in their AC30's...


most are though, guitar speakers are 'beat-up' boys of the speaker world. i mean, we don't even use a crossover to isolate frequencies. great addition becky. most people don't seem to know this.

in other words, a 25 watt speaker will handle a 25 watt amp just fine. even if the tube amp really cranks out around 40 watts when dimes, it'll hold. it'll just wear faster, and decrease the life of the speaker


be careful where you say 'bull'. i have quite a number of amps that i 'dime', and i am a badass


cuz it you already had it sitting around from the OEM and they wanted a flat speaker response? that is why i'd put a 70 watt speaker on a 22 watt amp.


well, it can. tube amps are notorious for good sound when run past their clean rating. solid state amps are notorious for sounding god awful when run past their clean rating.


well, what you'd get is a more flat response across a range of volume. meaning the higher the rating of the speaker, the more the speaker will sound the same at either a high or low volume setting. whereas at 22 watt amp with a 25 watt speaker will change it tone and response much more drastically when volume is increased. 'overpowering' with a speaker won't do anything to an amp.

think about this, if you took a car that tops out at 115 mph and took of the stock tires rated for ~125 mph and replaced them with tires rated for ~220, then how much would you notice? you'd notice more difference between the brand and style of tire than you would between the specifications in that scenario (wherein the car can't approach the top rated speed).


the 'overpowering' thing is not defined enough, if your speakers are rated less than the amplifier then that is the case. if the speakers are rated more than the amp then see what i wrote just above.


exactly. becky and rajouita get +1's


/thread?

Lol, really helpful info here, gumbilicious cleared up all my questions going into this thread, so +1.

My avatar 2x12 was just shipped today, so i wanted to make sure my 120w 5150II wouldn't be too much for the 120w cabinet. (Not like I would ever dime that beast)
Gear:
Ibanez RG4EXFM1
Peavey 5150II All Tube 120w Head
Avatar contemporary 2x12 (Celestion v30's)
Peavey Vypyr 15w (Fantastic Practice Amp!!!)

Got Djent?
#21
Yay, Gumbi wins again.

And for the record, amps are rated at RMS usually, which is the wattage that the amplifier begins to break up. Most amps will exceed their RMS rating fairly far.

IIRC the Marshall Major was rated at 200 watts RMS, but actually could output ~380 watts. I think. I can't remember. But I'm pretty sure.

Speaking of Greenbacks, I need to grab one to put in my Tweaker.
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#22
Quote by ikey_
i know. thats why i want one. but if it will make my tone FLAT...well F that. if its going to sound good in my 22 watt then ill buy one.

plus, i might buy a 2x12 cab. so i might have 3 12 inch speakers.

potentially, up to 250 watts of handling for my 22 watt (150 watt wizard. 2 well say 50 watt speakers)


would this sound good? or too much power handling?


Well...if you put 4 150w speakers in a cab, that would be rated at 600w. Most heads seem to be around 100w (yes, there is a lot of higher and lower, but 100w seems to be the "norm). so you would have 6x the power handling.

You can't just add the total power handling of the speakers together. Pretty much, you have to go with your lowest rated speakers (in your case the 50w) and multiply it by the number of speakers. So even with a 150w speaker, you'd only be rated for a TOTAL of 150w. Or roughly 6x the power of your amp. Then again, just 1 150w speaker would be the same.

If a 4x12 cab of Swamp Thangs ( 150w speakers) works with a 100w amp, 1 150w speaker should work equally well with your 22w amp. If the other speakers are not up to the sound quality of the 150w speaker, I wouldn't bother with them.
Ibanez RGR421EXFM, Michael Kelley Vex NV, Ovation Celebrity. Carvin V3
Peavey 412M w/Eminence Wizards & Swamp Thangs, Rocktron Hush Super C, Furman PL-8C,15 band EQ, Boosta grande, ISP Decimator, Dano EQ, Ibanez TBX 150,TC Elec Polytune
Last edited by Vinson at Aug 12, 2010,
#23
actually i messed up. wizards are 75 watts. its the tonker or something thats 150. i got messed up.

another note. my 70 watt stock bugera speaker had a peak of 280 WATTS. 280!!!!

again. 70 watts rms, 280 MAX!!! wtf. i was shocked when i saw that. so, that is the reason a 15 watt alnico blue can handle so much and you can crank a vox ac30 and not blow them.

and breakup at amp rms? so if im overdriving my amp that means im putting out 22+ watts at the point of breakup?
#24
Quote by ikey_

and breakup at amp rms? so if im overdriving my amp that means im putting out 22+ watts at the point of breakup?

Yeah, basically. Anything past breakup and you're going over 22 watts. Probably around 40 watts.

That's the whole reason behind wattage =/= volume. At least AFAIK.
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#25
Quote by ikey_
actually i messed up. wizards are 75 watts. its the tonker or something thats 150. i got messed up.

another note. my 70 watt stock bugera speaker had a peak of 280 WATTS. 280!!!!

again. 70 watts rms, 280 MAX!!! wtf. i was shocked when i saw that. so, that is the reason a 15 watt alnico blue can handle so much and you can crank a vox ac30 and not blow them.

and breakup at amp rms? so if im overdriving my amp that means im putting out 22+ watts at the point of breakup?


You might have been looking at the Swamp Thang as well. I knew one of mine was 75, and the other 150 LOL...in any case, pretty much everything still stands but the name of the speaker...I've edited to show the correct names.
Ibanez RGR421EXFM, Michael Kelley Vex NV, Ovation Celebrity. Carvin V3
Peavey 412M w/Eminence Wizards & Swamp Thangs, Rocktron Hush Super C, Furman PL-8C,15 band EQ, Boosta grande, ISP Decimator, Dano EQ, Ibanez TBX 150,TC Elec Polytune