#1
lets assume the chords go A minor, B minor, C major.

would this be using A dorian, or G major, even though there is no G chord?


i kind of understand modes, but if someone could clear this up for me, i would appreciate it.
#2
A dorian and G major are the same exact thing, it's just how you think of it. Calling it G Major is just more accessible for other people.
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#3
Quote by Reisgar42
A dorian and G major are the same exact thing, it's just how you think of it. Calling it G Major is just more accessible for other people.
Wrong. A dorian and G major are way different.
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#4
Quote by Reisgar42
A dorian and G major are the same exact thing, it's just how you think of it. Calling it G Major is just more accessible for other people.


not true :/
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#5
i agree with Food, but is the progression in A dorian, or is it in G major?

or is it in A minor, and happens to use the notes from A dorian, just not the mode itself?
#6
Substituting ii* with ii is not uncommon. In fact, it's more common to have ii than ii*. The ii is borrowed from the parallel major in something called "modal mixture." That name aside, there's no need to bring modes into a progression that's so simple. If you want to think of it as A Dorian, go ahead, but try not to tell an esteemed composer that it's in A Dorian.
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#7
If I was presented with this progression, I would assume it is in A minor, with the B minor being borrowed from the parallel major.

Edit: But it is ambiguous, it could be in any number of keys.

As for modes, I'd recommend getting a handle on the major and minors first. They aren't just the same thing thought in a different way.

Edit 2:

Oh you're talking about "Whipping Post" by the Allman Brothers. Most, if not all popular music (or all music really) do not use modes, this one included.
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#8
Quote by Eastwinn
Substituting ii* with ii is not uncommon. In fact, it's more common to have ii than ii*. The ii is borrowed from the parallel major in something called "modal mixture." That name aside, there's no need to bring modes into a progression that's so simple. If you want to think of it as A Dorian, go ahead, but try not to tell an esteemed composer that it's in A Dorian.



This.

Would you really want to hear a Bmb5 instead of Bm just so it's in the key of Am? Bands who predominately play power chords use the natural 6 in a minor key on the second degree as is would be a diminished chord - interval rather, in this case - instead, unlike every other degree in the scale. , while still using the b6 in it's respective chord. It's all in the name of making the music the most pleasing sounding to the listener. The b5 interval at times is, for lack of a better word - inconvenient. It's great for building up tension to release, but it just wouldn't work in this context.

If you had say a Bm7b5 falling back to the Am or perhaps to the E then back to the A it might work. but that would be more typical of a jazzy kind of progression, rather then a rockish blues ballad.

By the way this song kick ass. I remember my grade 4 teacher playing us this song on an acoustic 12-string and he talked about how playing instrument had given his life a new meaning. It was really what inspired me to start playing. /ramble
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#9
Alan: If the Bm were a Bdim, it would be in C Major because of the vii*-I movement. Otherwise, it's definitely Am. Hear it for yourself

Also, I agree that this song is awesome.
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Last edited by Eastwinn at Aug 13, 2010,
#10
I agree if in the context of this chord progression it was a Bdim it would in C major. I just don't think a vi - viio - I progression would sound any good. Throw a V in there before or after the Am then maybe, but we digress

edit: currently listening to the song. the IV and V chords used sound major. so the IV borrows the same the natural sixth the ii chord does. the V borrowed from the parrallel major too, but thats nothing out of the ordinary
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Last edited by Wiegenlied at Aug 13, 2010,
#11
Quote by Eastwinn
Alan: If the Bm were a Bdim, it would be in C Major because of the vii*-I movement. Otherwise, it's definitely Am. Hear it for yourself


Yep I just listened to the song, it's in Am, not any surprises here really.
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#12
Quote by Eastwinn
Substituting ii* with ii is not uncommon. In fact, it's more common to have ii than ii*. The ii is borrowed from the parallel major in something called "modal mixture." That name aside, there's no need to bring modes into a progression that's so simple. .



Sure there is. Because A dorian works over the progression (and functions as such)

playing A natural minor doesn't work quite as well. (The F obviously clashes).


Quote by Eastwinn

If you want to think of it as A Dorian, go ahead, but try not to tell an esteemed composer that it's in A Dorian.


Any esteemed composer would understand where you coming from. its the guys that think they know everything and love to argue that you have to watch out for.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2010,
#13
Quote by GuitarMunky
Sure there is. Because A dorian works over the progression (and functions as such)

playing A natural minor doesn't work quite as well. (The F obviously clashes).


Any esteemed composer would understand where you coming from. its the guys that think they know everything and love to argue that you have to watch out for.


Sure, but it doesn't "use modes" in that it's not one of those elusive progressions we always talk about here. That's what I meant, I just didn't go about saying it that well. It's not modal, obviously, but playing A Dorian over it would certainly work. Really, you'd probably want to avoid the 6th except as a passing tone altogether. If you're an experimental type, you could call upon modal interchange and say Am over everything except the ii, where play A Dorian. The catch would be actually emphasizing the 6th. Not sure how it would sound.

Oh, and I didn't mean that an esteemed composer wouldn't know where you're coming from -- it seems like it's only MT where a simple mention of modes causes a thread wide backlash
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#14
Quote by Eastwinn
Sure, but it doesn't "use modes" in that it's not one of those elusive progressions we always talk about here. That's what I meant, I just didn't go about saying it that well. It's not modal, obviously, but playing A Dorian over it would certainly work. Really, you'd probably want to avoid the 6th except as a passing tone altogether. If you're an experimental type, you could call upon modal interchange and say Am over everything except the ii, where play A Dorian. The catch would be actually emphasizing the 6th. Not sure how it would sound.

Oh, and I didn't mean that an esteemed composer wouldn't know where you're coming from -- it seems like it's only MT where a simple mention of modes causes a thread wide backlash


why would you avoid the 6th? its part of every other chord... and works over all of them.

(I understand why you would avoid the 6th using the minor scale... but the dorian mode/scale works over the whole progression with no "avoid" notes)


IMO this is NOT a standard minor progression. Forcing "minor" over the progression is more complicated than just using the scale that the chords support naturally.
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2010,
#15
^ Because it sound funny sometimes. Depends on the genre really.

This is definitely a standard minor progression. I see it all the time. It's pretty big with indie music, where the b6 is used, and the the sixth is avoided altogether over the ii.
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#16
Quote by Eastwinn
^ Because it sound funny sometimes. Depends on the genre really.

This is definitely a standard minor progression. I see it all the time. It's pretty big with indie music, where the b6 is used, and the the sixth is avoided altogether over the ii.


I guess all I can say to that is....... I disagree
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#18
Quote by Eastwinn

well I should say i understand where you're coming from, but respectfully disagree.

In general I see that song as being blues based.

regarding the verse/ solo progression:

Of all the music I've come across, that chord progression most resembles the typical i - ii - i - ii dorian progression. Consider that the bassists is playing A underneath the entire thing and you could say the chords are Am - Bm7/A - Am7 - Bm7/A. Playing a dorian melody over this is certainly appropriate, though the Allman bothers used mostly the minor pentatonic over it.

I understand your logic with the borrowed chords, but disagree that it is a more accurate analysis.

In terms of soloing over it and choosing an appropriate scale I think using 1 scale that works over the entire progression is easier to deal with. For that purpose I would use A minor pent, A minor blues, and/or A dorian. I definitely would not use A natural minor, A harmonic minor, or A melodic minor. (which are the scales you would associate with A minor)
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 13, 2010,
#19
Quote by GuitarMunky
(which are the scales you would associate with A minor)
I wouldn't say so. It all depends on the progression. Dorian is a minor mode just like aeolian.
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#20
I don't deny that Blues often contains legitimate Dorian progressions, and I agree that Am - Bm7/A - Am7 - Bm7/A would definitely be Dorian. However I'd have to take a another look and listen to decide if that is what's really occurring in the song. Now that you mention the bass (something I had previously overlooked, being that the way the song sounds has completely escaped my memory) it seems likely. I admit to being overly confident without reviewing the song again first -- but hey this isn't a court of law, it's a forum of music.

EDIT: Well, the tab I'm looking at shows the progression in the verse is A-Bm-C. That I'd chalk up (again) as classic blues mode mixture: I-ii-bIII. This time it can't possibly be modal.
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Last edited by Eastwinn at Aug 13, 2010,
#21
Quote by food1010
I wouldn't say so. It all depends on the progression. Dorian is a minor mode just like aeolian.


I said associated with a "minor" progression (implying Major/minor tonal system) as opposed to a modal progression.


and we have a specific progression so there is no "depends on".


Quote by Eastwinn


EDIT: Well, the tab I'm looking at shows the progression in the verse is A-Bm-C. That I'd chalk up (again) as classic blues mode mixture: I-ii-bIII. This time it can't possibly be modal.


How informed is the average person that posts tabs on the internet? I mean we know the 1st chord is Am... not A right?
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 14, 2010,
#22
Quote by GuitarMunky
I said associated with a "minor" progression (implying Major/minor tonal system) as opposed to a modal progression.
Ah, I see your point now. The way you worded it at first threw me off a bit. It seemed to me that you were claiming you can't use dorian modal mixture in a minor progression or something like that.

Quote by GuitarMunky
How informed is the average person that posts tabs on the internet? I mean we know the 1st chord is Am... not A right?
I actually don't hear a Bm anywhere. I think what TS is referring to as Am Bm C is really just a static Am chord with the guitar running up A B C over it as well as a harmony doing E F# G. The keyboard actually does just drone an Am.

The chords I hear are a static Am, then later it does that D E Am turnaround.. Over the static Am chord, dorian is definitely very plausible (in fact the solo uses mostly the Am pentatonic with the natural 6 a bit here and there), but the turnaround is very major/minor bluesy. Also, later in the song it does A D E, which is straight major blues.

As for the static Am chord, you could definitely call it A dorian. The rest of the song, not so much.
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#23
Quote by food1010
Ah, I see your point now. The way you worded it at first threw me off a bit. It seemed to me that you were claiming you can't use dorian modal mixture in a minor progression or something like that.

I actually don't hear a Bm anywhere. I think what TS is referring to as Am Bm C is really just a static Am chord with the guitar running up A B C over it as well as a harmony doing E F# G. The keyboard actually does just drone an Am.

The chords I hear are a static Am, then later it does that D E Am turnaround.. Over the static Am chord, dorian is definitely very plausible (in fact the solo uses mostly the Am pentatonic with the natural 6 a bit here and there), but the turnaround is very major/minor bluesy. Also, later in the song it does A D E, which is straight major blues.

As for the static Am chord, you could definitely call it A dorian. The rest of the song, not so much.



during the verse it's not a static Am chord. it's Am - Bm/A - Am7 - Bm/A

and yeah, like I said the song is blues based......which is more obvious at the chorus. and no I didn't suggest using dorian over the entire song..... just the verse/solo section (just the part that calls for it)
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Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 14, 2010,