#1
Hey guys got a big prob. I have written some songs and I want to sum up all the big themes in one big 'bombastic' orchetra song.

I want brass and strings , etc.
I am totaly new in arranging Orchestras(right).
How do I start?
How do I bring all the theme (11) inside?
I thought riffs could be for trombone, melody for strings and thrills for ornaments and flute...
dunno. THe vision is clear but It seems to be beyond my ability.

I know it could work, but to manage all the stuff to work and to distribute all the bass ,mid and high parts seems too complex for me as beginner.

I think I need as fast as possible all the basics.

Do you have links of a good handbook for the topic?


help please.
#2
Well the first rule of counterpoint is build from the bass up.

I find brass is good for 'chugging' type riffs, with long power chords or chugging. Strings are really good for long chords to 'fill up' the sound, and using the 'high'er strings (violin and viola) to play the sort of fast high little riffs to go over the chugs. Timpani is also really fun to work with, it gives a good rhythm to the song.
Quote by theogonia777
and then there's free jazz, which isn't even for musicians.

Quote by Born A Fool
As my old guitar teacher once said: Metal really comes from classical music. The only difference is pinch harmonics, double bass, and lyrics about killing goats.
Last edited by Dream Floyd at Aug 13, 2010,
#3
Quote by Dream Floyd
Well the first rule of counterpoint is build from the bass up.


Erm, well you could also start with the highest voice if you already have a melody in mind.

BlackmetalGitar: Learning all of this quickly is basically impossible. This is what people spend years learning.. but I suppose Walter Piston's Counterpoint is a good place to start.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#4
One of the hardest things I've ever tried to do is put a rock/metal song into an orchestra or build it's own "orchestra" to go with it. X5 chords have no quality, so how do you decide minor or major? Diminished or augmented? Do you know how?

If you've never arranged or written for orchestra before, I'd recommend starting small first. Once you get good at it should you attempt something like this.

First thing you have to realize about arranging/ornamentation is that every instrument has it's own timbre. The only reasons I could imagine for "assigning" instruments parts would be if they were characters (like "Peter and the Wolf") or if you were doing some strict counterpoint stuff. Trombone for riffs would be nice... sometimes. Strings sound amazing. I like to pass the melody around the different instruments. Do you?

There is much you should figure out that we can't ask before you should attempt an actual symphony/album closer (which I'm assuming you want to sound really good).

All of the questions you asked are based on the composer, the intention of the composer, the piece itself, and even which instruments are playing what. They're all very specific to what is going on at the time.

Some really good books would be "Counterpoint" and "Orchestration", both by Walter Piston.

The best thing for you to do though is to just practice writing. Figure out what you like.

A good way to start is by practicing basic species counterpoint up until you get good, and then doing free counterpoint using the different ensembles (strings, choir, brass, woodwind). After you get good at that (hell, even just knowing how to do one WELL helps a lot with knowing how to do the others) you can combine them all.

Sorry if this wasn't the answer you're looking for, but you're pretty much asking the easy way to do Calculus. There is none other than patience, practice, and trial and error. I, myself, have only been studying orchestration on a full orchestra for a little over two years now. I still feel like I've barely scratched the surface.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Aug 13, 2010,
#5
Well Thanks for the answers. Indeed it is not what gives me hope to manage it, but I guess that I just need to try and accept a naiv result.

I will do the other way maybe later, I dream about arranging the first allegro of 5. Simphonie of beethoven into metal. may be I learn by transforming 'realized-classic' into metal...and back...

The Difficulty is that I have probs with counterpoint creation, coz all the riffs and songs are fine...
I need to put them together...but I think that this can only fail coz of that much themes.
Most simphonies havent that much themes and last an hour, coz modification etc.
But I want max. 10 min.
....
I realize that I need to study it for real.
I come to the borders of my ability... hrrrr.

I dont wanna become next beethoven or mahler just wanna do it fine and working.


What do you think about Virtual string orchestras? would this work and/or sound good?
Last edited by BlackmetalGitar at Aug 13, 2010,
#6
Sibelius makes fine sounding orchestras IMO.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#7
How badly do you want this on your album?

People spend years studying the art of orchestration. There are all sorts of things that need to be considered, like spacing of different timbres, the ranges,timbres, technical limitations of each instrument,how to blend instruments together so they don't sound like a big clashing noise, Which instruments to double with which, the list goes on. Without a solid grasp of harmony and Counterpoint you willl find the study of orchestration extremely difficult.

I got Walter Pistons Orchestration book for my Christmas, looked through it a bit and then decided to put it away until I'm in my second year of university. I still attempt to write orchestral music but I'm aware it fails in comparison to properly orchestrated music.

If i were you instead of writing an entire symphony maybe add a string accompaniment to one of your songs, or arrange it in a 4 part style or chorus or strings.
#8
www.howtowriteanorchestra. www.withoutknowingwhatyouaredoing.com

The definitive guide for all your answers concerning orchestra.

Kidding, of course. Those sorts of things are learned progressively. It really depends on what knowledge you have now. Can you do species counterpoint? Have you ever tried to? Are good at harmonization and understanding the voicings of many chords? Have you broken down and analyzed a piece and harmonically and sylistically made sense of it, and the movement thorughout the piece?

You're talking about some heavyweight ideas. Im not saying you cannot do this, but if you can't, its not found in a handbook, except of course in the link above...



Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Aug 13, 2010,
#9
TS, Im gonna be honest with you. You dont have what it takes to write a good orchestra piece. It took the worlds greatest composers 10 years at a conservatory before thy could really write good music for full orchestras. So dont expect to be writing anything ground breaking. Honestly, youll have enough trouble writing out block chords. My advice? Just get a pretty good keyboard and play it all on that
#10
@griffRG7321: well that strings shall not be part of the band
(dont wanna be a second dimmu borgir)
when at all trumpets like behemoth

I know that I have to pay attention to many elements. I 'd like to learn it, but quick.
I'd even limit the orchestra to less intruments and combine these right.
Then I do the things about timbre and intrument limit.

@Eastwinn: Isnt sibelius only for writing sheets.
I meant the virtual intrument like colossus.


@tubatom Haha yes I know but I'm a metalhead and I gonna try it anyhow.


@Sean there are no sites like this...^^


Well and as said I just wanna prevent the capital-mistakes. maybe I do some test songs and send it to you.
Does it make any sense to arrange some chord which supports almost all instrument?
(you know when almost all instrument are aktive)
Or is that not common/normal?

-then I could see which Instruments are needed...


Does GPro support the basic orchestra instrument (if yes which shall I take)

Gonna try to get Sibelius soon.

----------------------------------------------------
here the gp chord^^
---------------------------
thx for answers
Attachments:
Orchetrachordtest.gp5
Last edited by BlackmetalGitar at Aug 14, 2010,
#11
Quote by BlackmetalGitar


Does GPro support the basic orchestra instrument (if yes which shall I take)





?? you mean instruments?

its obvious you just need to read up on basic orchestral arrangements, how they are formed, how many of each instrument etc.

LISTEN to some damn orchestral music, tchaikovsky, mozart, saint saens, prokofiev rimsky korsakov - in fact anything done by the czecho-slovak radio symphony is good

But as far as arranging this kind of music from scratch - you should probs give up your current lifestyle and take lessons at a conservatorium for about 15 years


EDIT: Just listened to the GP5 file

why is a violin tuned to D G C F A D? why does it have 6 strings for that matter?
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
Last edited by Tominator_1991 at Aug 14, 2010,
#12
lol Yes I have not watch the range and tuning. it was just for 'sound' ?

study at conservatorium?
the prob is, I think they not gonna take me. to bad at piano etc...
What is required to study there? If would head only for composition...^^?


Does anyone know what the orchestra did at metallica SM?
was that simple powerchord spilttting?

isnt there anyway to split chord e.g. of guitar
E5A7D7g5h5e5
into the orchestra instruments

for example: contrabass E5 cello D7 viola h5 etc.....
#14
Yes in the last month started again to listen intensively.
I have listen before and my band is very influenced of classic music.
I have sometimes some probs with long calm past. I ignore them and focus especially on Composers of bombastic and dramatic stuff.
Till now I was thinking about using melodies, phrasing and melodies of these great composer and put in the band.
But I also want some pure classic stuff. I need some outros or intros etc.!

Actually I listen to Mahler, Shostakovitch, Beethoven, ...

I gonna take a look at walter piston now, maybe thats enough, in the first instance.


p.s. TS?!
TEAMSPEAK!?
Last edited by BlackmetalGitar at Aug 14, 2010,
#15
Quote by BlackmetalGitar
@Sean there are no sites like this...^^


...it was a vague troll.

But yeah guitar pro is good if you're just tinkering with it. Use the brass section extension, the string ensemble 1 extension, and timpani, piano, harp, or flute if you want. I've actually written pieces with separate violins, violas, cellos, and basses, but I would stick to the string section thing first.

EDIT: Yeah, and TS means 'Thread starter'
Quote by theogonia777
and then there's free jazz, which isn't even for musicians.

Quote by Born A Fool
As my old guitar teacher once said: Metal really comes from classical music. The only difference is pinch harmonics, double bass, and lyrics about killing goats.
Last edited by Dream Floyd at Aug 14, 2010,
#16
Quote by BlackmetalGitar
lol Yes I have not watch the range and tuning. it was just for 'sound' ?

study at conservatorium?
the prob is, I think they not gonna take me. to bad at piano etc...
What is required to study there? If would head only for composition...^^?


Does anyone know what the orchestra did at metallica SM?
was that simple powerchord spilttting?

isnt there anyway to split chord e.g. of guitar
E5A7D7g5h5e5
into the orchestra instruments

for example: contrabass E5 cello D7 viola h5 etc.....


there is no H note......

You dont have to be good at piano to go to a con, you know, apparently guitar is an instrument - whats up with that?

I suggest you just play around with MIDI - buy a midi keyboard and have a whack at that
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#17
Quote by Tominator_1991
there is no H note......

You dont have to be good at piano to go to a con, you know, apparently guitar is an instrument - whats up with that?

I suggest you just play around with MIDI - buy a midi keyboard and have a whack at that


In Germany and a few other countries, a B note is called an H note.

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#18
Quote by xxdarrenxx
In Germany and a few other countries, a B note is called an H note.



okey dokes

thats wierd


anyway yeah, midi seems the way to go, as far as "splitting powerchords" do you know what notes are in a powerchord? 1 and 5 right?

well theres a start :S

but surely if you wrote the song, you should know what key they are in, what chords are being used (under the powerchords) and the whole thing inside and out note for note

that would also help
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#19
At least start on a smaller scale, maybe with something like a string quartet or something similar. You'll find it much, much easier to break a song down and it can still end up sounding great. You might not even need an entire orchestra?
#20
@Tominator_1991 yes the 'h thing':^^ I am from Germany.

by splitting I mean only that I could relate to the range of some instruments.
I have this chord, lets say a-minor. I take the bass instruments for the 'A' or the 'e', the next oktave 'a' and 'c' for mid-range instruments and high range the rest and higher.
I know that the experience with the instruments would teach me which one sounds bad at high range or goes not deep enough.
I hope Piston tells me.
But what relation is more common?

Bass:Tuba, Bass,Timpani,Bassoons,
Mid: Clarinette, Harp,Oboe,Celli,Trombone,Horn
High:Flute, Violin/Viola, Trumpet,

(RIGHT)?

@Drummmerrr?: jep I 'll start with little and then get more,
There is some interpretation reason that whole project the song shall sound megalomaniac...
shall not bother you....

@all!
Is the Role of the different orchestra Instruments only to provide different colors and timbres...?!


_______________________________________
Sorry for my free-spirited language....^^!
#22
ok thx u all for these Boards.
gonna watch them.
I gonna dunk in it. hehe
Hope that it helps and I get.
Last edited by BlackmetalGitar at Aug 16, 2010,
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
If you are really set on writing a symphony that will sound decent then have fun reading and understanding all of this http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/showthread.php/45335-Lesson-1-GENERAL-REVIEW-Strings-amp-Woodwinds

Read, understand, and put into practise what is said in all the lessons.




I was just gonna post this!!
Here's the forum page for it:
http://www.northernsounds.com/forum/forumdisplay.php/77-Principles-of-Orchestration-On-line

The Jazz lessons are even better then that though. I really like the jazz ones.
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