#1
Yo, I've been working on this new piece and have reached a point of uncertainty. I'd like to get some opinion on it so far and what people would like to hear as it develops. You know, some constructive criticism.

The introduction and A section are all based on the octatonic scale (or the diminished scale as the jazz guys know it), and the B section was derived from some chord progressions I made using suspensions. I was thinking of it getting a little heavier as it develops, but definitely in a Frank Zappa fashion. C4C of course!
Attachments:
OctatonicPiece.gp5
#2
Intro was too dissonant even for me. And that takes alot.

A was good, nice and upbeat, still quite dissonant. B had great resolve, and the lead section was good. I noticed that it got more dissonant and building towards the end.

Rather short, but I liked it. Keep going with it.

https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1350424
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1350543

First is TechDeath with some Jazz. If you check the 2nd, Its C4C, so in case you have another Piece somewhere...
#3
Well it's fair to say what the ****?
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Colossus
#4
Bar 27 onward is pretty much lifted from Yuzo Koshiro's soundtrack to Streets of Rage 2 on the Mega Drive

Intro doesn't work with the triplets and sixteenths, why did you not just use a dotted eighth then three sixteenths in place of the triplet whole/eighth and two sixteenths? Feels messy and too broken up this way, no flow at all, which in a super dissonant section like that, you really need.

Dissonant saxes don't work either. The third chord in bar 11, that's just horrible.

Also some of this feels wrong on a scale level if you were going for the diminished scale.

That said, it does have some things going for it, they're just buried under things which really don't work.

And if you want to look at something of mine in return, check the sig.
#5
Intro was too dissonant even for me. And that takes alot.


If modulating diminished chords is too dissonant for you, than sir we have quite different ears. No one I have yet to play it for in person has given me the impression that it is TOO dissonant. That being said, I really like your JazzDeath piece and will give both of them a proper crit later :P

Well it's fair to say what the ****?


For someone with a PTH quote under their username, I'd expect more outta you!

Intro doesn't work with the triplets and sixteenths, why did you not just use a dotted eighth then three sixteenths in place of the triplet whole/eighth and two sixteenths?


It's because it's switching out from swinging the beat to straight sixteenths, and that's the easiest way to write it out in GP. The rhythm feels perfectly fine to me, the alternating between 4/4 and 5/4 repeats itself enough I feel to keep a good flow going.

Also some of this feels wrong on a scale level if you were going for the diminished scale.


Nope, I've worked everything on paper, it's all correct :P
#6
If modulating diminished chords is too dissonant for you, than sir we have quite different ears. No one I have yet to play it for in person has given me the impression that it is TOO dissonant.

I like diminished chords, but there your stacking 3 tritones, if not more. Not to mention Halfstep harmonies on those chords. Prehaps when you play it in person, the strumming motion adds more dynamic to it, phrases it slightly different, and creates a more tolerable sound.
#7
Quote by TheNoManBand
For someone with a PTH quote under their username, I'd expect more outta you!


Haha sorry to dissapoint but I just didn't understand what I was hearing. I love dissonance as much as the next lunatic but it was just incomprehendable. Like the guy above me said, it wasn't just a tritone or half step harmony I was hearing (which are things I use all the time), it was several different tritones with half step harmonies over them. Which just made my ear bleed to be honest. I have to say though this dissonant jazzy sort things always sound a million times better when played properly. I've played jazzy stuff and then tabbed it out and been like "woah that sounds nasty" even though it didn't before. So I think it' hard to pass proper judgment on this when I'm 99% sure that GP isn't doing your piece justice.

EDIT: I just listened again and I can honestly tell you I was grimacing from bar four onwards. And I mean grimace like I was watching someone be disemboweled and then shit and blood and organs sprayed all over my face. There's no way that can sound anywhere near not too dissonant even when played in person. Were the people you were playing to deaf by any chance?

Although I do love that little bit at the start of bar fourteen, that's rather funky.
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Colossus
Last edited by frankibo at Aug 16, 2010,
#8
I'd agree with frankibo, it's an interesting piece, but it's TOO dissonant. It loses meaning, it loses melody, and combined with the rhythm thing (I still say a dotted eighth and three sixteenths would be easier than the triplet, it's not conveying swing feel if that's what you were aiming for), it's just a messy part from both angles. There's merit in the piece, don't get me wrong at all, I did like large parts of it.. just not the intro.
#9
when the electric gutar chords came in it was just unlistenable. the lead at A was cool but the backing clashed with it sometimes.
Musical Theatre! *jazz hands*


...what am I doing on this site...
#10
I enjoyed it, but I found everything before part B to be way too cluttered. I'm fine with the dissonance, but I think it'd be better if you didn't have 4-5 instruments playing the exact same chords. Maybe the different brass parts could play single notes instead of slamming the listener with the whole chord coming from absolutely everyone.
#11
I guess most of you just don't like the style. My mom who has a PHD in music comp, not to sound snobby, loves it and says its barely that dissonant, which I happen to agree. Most prog metal I've heard sounds so much more dissonant to me, especially a lot of BTBAM. My friends who I have played it for that liked it are either avid metal fans or musicians in my school jazz band etc, so I trust their opinions. I honestly have been taken aback by some of these comments, but whatever to each their own.

Maybe the different brass parts could play single notes instead of slamming the listener with the whole chord coming from absolutely everyone.


For one, I'd like to thank you for being the first real constructive crit :P Two, yeah I intend on writing out particular lines for the brass. I forgot to mention that most of what's there is more of an outline. You're absolutely right though!
#12
Quote by TheNoManBand
I guess most of you just don't like the style. My mom who has a PHD in music comp, not to sound snobby, loves it and says its barely that dissonant, which I happen to agree. Most prog metal I've heard sounds so much more dissonant to me, especially a lot of BTBAM. My friends who I have played it for that liked it are either avid metal fans or musicians in my school jazz band etc, so I trust their opinions. I honestly have been taken aback by some of these comments, but whatever to each their own.


If it means anything I enjoyed the entire thing. Though, normally, if I happen to enjoy any piece of music I look past any of its possible imperfections and just like it how it is, so this may or may not help you.

And so what if it's dissonant? It's all about taste when it comes to that, so if you like it how it is, then just keep it that way.
#13
I listened to your song and honestly I don't like it. I'm glad if you're proud of it and stick with your vision. If there is only one reason why you should continue music, it is definitely because you are passionated by it. You don't have to justify your work if you like it. Tastes can't be explained.

For me, a song isn't only about theory and being theoretically correct. It has to have a feeling. For most listeners, this genre will not be appreciable. It does sound way too dissonant and to me it is a complete mess ; but a calculated mess. Just be careful to insult other listeners by your attitude, because they only try to help you, even if, i agree, some are rather unskillfull at communicating their ideas.

Don't take my opinion too seriously because it is only one among many others, but keep up the work if this is the way you see it. People here are there to help you achieve what you want to achieve, not by imposing their point of view.
#14
Quote by TheNoManBand
I guess most of you just don't like the style. My mom who has a PHD in music comp, not to sound snobby, loves it and says its barely that dissonant, which I happen to agree. Most prog metal I've heard sounds so much more dissonant to me, especially a lot of BTBAM.


Just no, I've love BTBAM so I know their stuff and this is a trillion more times more dissonant. About they most they do is a tritone breakdown as far as didssoance goes. So i dunno what your mother is in about and I don't know what you've been hearing when you listen to BTBAM.

If you like the dissonance then you like the song, but most of us seem to be of the opinion that theirs too much dissonance.
THe second half of the song is much better then the first though.
My songs are all located here .
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Colossus
#15
If it means anything I enjoyed the entire thing. Though, normally, if I happen to enjoy any piece of music I look past any of its possible imperfections and just like it how it is, so this may or may not help you.

And so what if it's dissonant? It's all about taste when it comes to that, so if you like it how it is, then just keep it that way.


You're absolutely right,and I really appreciate it!

For me, a song isn't only about theory and being theoretically correct. It has to have a feeling. For most listeners, this genre will not be appreciable. It does sound way too dissonant and to me it is a complete mess ; but a calculated mess. Just be careful to insult other listeners by your attitude, because they only try to help you, even if, i agree, some are rather unskillfull at communicating their ideas.


No I completely agree, it's about emotional content too. But I believe you can achieve feeling while using theory to create something new and harmonically interesting. I've put a lot of feeling into this so far for me, but it just may not communicate the same to many of you. And I really am not trying to be a snobby asshole here, its just I wasn't excepting such reactions and honestly, they were a bit harsh, which severely annoyed me, but I apologize for any of you that were insulted :P

This also tells me that as I progress I should try to do some more harmonically normal things as well to kind of balance it off for those that don't like the more bizarre. Plus this is probably my most harmonically weird piece so far, if you want something more normal you should check out Late Night Ride in my sig, its much more typical jazz rock.

Just no, I've love BTBAM so I know their stuff and this is a trillion more times more dissonant. About they most they do is a tritone breakdown as far as didssoance goes. So i dunno what your mother is in about and I don't know what you've been hearing when you listen to BTBAM.


But it's how you do it is what I'm trying to say. I'm a big BTBAM fan to and they many times do a lot more than tritone breakdowns, and even those with the screaming and such can sound a lot more harsh to me. And if you look carefully at the chords, all I'm using is diminished chords and maybe some half-diminished or diminished with maj 7ths. And for instance in the intro, the distorted guitar is just playing a different inversion of the chords the clean guitar is playing, so I'm really not stacking multiple diminished on top of each other. It's really not that harmonically bizarre, honestly its probably just guitar pro but well see when I finish and record it.
#17
I actually liked the intro. In fact, I liked pretty much all of that. I think it could use a bit more... ground. Like you could divide the heavily dissonant and hectic parts with some more consonant or even just slower parts. Just to give a break from the craziness.

Can't really say much more; a lot of the chords are really ugly, but I think they work. If you could take a lot at the piece in my sig, it'd be greatly appreciated. I'd love to know what your mother thinks of it too hahaha.

I just want to sleep forever.


#18
This was some great jazz. I really enjoyed the rhythm throughout the whole thing, and the 'feel' you had. I could never write something like this. The beginning (bars 1-10) sounds like a mathcore song, quite dissonant. It almost sounds out of place, compared to the rest of the song, but it flows into the rest of the song perfectly, so good job on that.

Not sure why everyone is saying this is too dissonant? The beginning has some noisy chords and there are some blue notes in the solo, but as a whole it sounds consonant.

I'm going to address some of these critiques because there are some posts I disagree with.
@nightale
This song has a definite jazz feeling, maybe not during bars 1-10. It doesn't sound like a 'calculated mess', you can tell exactly what style he was going for. It does come down to tastes, like you said, but it seems to me that you simply aren't hearing it for what it is. I understand that GP has the ability to make stuff that would normally sound good sound bad, but you have to get past the GP effect and listen to it for it really would be if recorded.

@frankibo
sorry but you don't know what the word 'dissonance' means. I'm betting you're not too familiar with jazz either. BTBAM is frequently more dissonant than this.

@slayerfk
says someone with a spider 3.
Last edited by bloodshed344 at Aug 21, 2010,
#19
Quote by bloodshed344
@frankibo
sorry but you don't know what the word 'dissonance' means. I'm betting you're not too familiar with jazz either. BTBAM is frequently more dissonant than this.


I can't ****ing believe what I'm hearing. Admittedly I'm not too book smart with Jazz, but I am with BTBAM and I know what dissonance is. When have BTBAM been more dissonant then this? And I don't understand how you can say that a chord that has an E, Db, G and Bb is not dissonant? There's two different tritones in there and it sounds awful as you'd expect.

I've got no problem with this piece being horrifically dissonant, if that's what he went for he's achieved it and some people will love this piece for that. I just don't want to be told it isn't dissonant because my bleeding ears disagree.

For the record I quite like it from B onwards.
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Colossus
#20
Awesome piece. The intro was some heavy shit.
"A war is coming, I've seen it in my dreams. Fires sweeping through the earth, bodies in the streets, cities turned to dust. Retaliation..."


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#21
Quote by frankibo
I can't ****ing believe what I'm hearing. Admittedly I'm not too book smart with Jazz, but I am with BTBAM and I know what dissonance is. When have BTBAM been more dissonant then this? And I don't understand how you can say that a chord that has an E, Db, G and Bb is not dissonant? There's two different tritones in there and it sounds awful as you'd expect.

I've got no problem with this piece being horrifically dissonant, if that's what he went for he's achieved it and some people will love this piece for that. I just don't want to be told it isn't dissonant because my bleeding ears disagree.

For the record I quite like it from B onwards.

The beginning is dissonant, like I said, but the rest really isn't. At all.

Listen to Tommy's keyboard solo in Swim to the Moon, for one example. You could argue that BTBAM's chromatic riffs (like Autodidact) are also more dissonant.
Last edited by bloodshed344 at Aug 21, 2010,
#22
Quote by frankibo
And I don't understand how you can say that a chord that has an E, Db, G and Bb is not dissonant? There's two different tritones in there and it sounds awful as you'd expect.


That would be a diminished 7 chord, they're more common than you would think.
#24

That would be a diminished 7 chord, they're more common than you would think.


THANK YOU! This chord is found in TONS of jazz standards, it's all how you use it.

Too dissonant? Not dissonant enough. This is great. Keep it up.


Haha I don't know if I'll get MORE dissonant, but I'm glad that someone else appreciates how dissonance, even ever-so-slightly can be beautiful.

This was some great jazz. I really enjoyed the rhythm throughout the whole thing, and the 'feel' you had. I could never write something like this. The beginning (bars 1-10) sounds like a mathcore song, quite dissonant. It almost sounds out of place, compared to the rest of the song, but it flows into the rest of the song perfectly, so good job on that.


Yeah my influences are very broad so I'm trying to write something here that incorporates a lot while still flowing well. Kinda like Mr. Bungle without abrupt transitions.

I actually liked the intro. In fact, I liked pretty much all of that. I think it could use a bit more... ground. Like you could divide the heavily dissonant and hectic parts with some more consonant or even just slower parts. Just to give a break from the craziness.


That's great advice, kinda what I was trying to do with the "B" section, but obviously it needs to slow down and become more "normal" during some sections to hold the audience. That doesn't mean I won't be doing some heavy shit too :P

There's two different tritones in there and it sounds awful as you'd expect.


Hey, did you know a normal diminished chord is two tritones!? Just sayin...how about that for weird
#25
Lol consider me the antithesis of what everyone else thinks of this song but honestly I find the intro is alright, although it is very discordant and dissonant I can hear everything distinguished clearly and concisely and I don't feel it sounds muddy, I just feel like it has a very grating color to it and personally I don't dislike it - although it's not amazing, I don't think it's unlistenable.

Actually what I disliked the most was those damn lick leads with the bendy stuff all over em, it sounded horrible and amateur as a lead phrasing, and I thought it was horribly out of place with the harmonic (if you can call it that) and rhythmic content.

Like if you're doing something fully dissonant and throwing in a cliche amateur jazz player's solo lick that doesn't actually sound that good. Although I can definitely see the Frank Zappa influence in this part, it's badly executed I find. The backing is generally pretty good for the entire A section honestly, I just find the leads are generally horrible, save for a few places (14-15 transition seems like a great idea but needs a bit more polish/cohesiveness in the execution).

19-23 is definitely what I consider the coolest part up to that point, sounds really cool.

The part after that, again, the rhythm and idea is great, I think the lead (all of it) is horrible... just ruins everything, it sounds beyond amateur and it just doesn't lock in harmonically with the rhythm, or fit rhythmically, actually it sounds entirely disjointed.

I dunno man. It's not the dissonance that's the issue here, it's the lack of glue between the melodic phrasing and its relation to the rhythmic content, harmonically and pulse wise.

What I'd like to hear out of this piece? Clearer barriers and definition of Pulse, Harmony, Rhythm and Melody - more cohesiveness between all of them, better accentuation of each one and a better sense of voice leading and definition between each voices.

If you wanna c4c check out my uber folder or SEnsory overload.