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#1
I want to talk about something i've seen over the last few years in the movie industry. It's not so much crippling as annoying, but I want peoples on opinions on the reasons behind it. It is the unwarranted hate, and when I say hate i mean loathing, of movies which have been at least reasonably well critically received. The hate comes from not just the general public though, but also the professionals who reviewed the films in the first place.

Okay so perhaps the most well known example of this is the Star Wars films. Now, when I think of the new trilogy I think two things: firstly, I have an affection for them for the simple reason that I grew up with them, Episode I appeared when I was seven years old, and entertained me to no end. Secondly, people hate them.

I thought I'd take a look at the the review scores of all the films, I wanted to see whether my affection for them was itself perhaps slightly misplaced, and so I took a trip to RottenTomatoes, these are the review scores of all the films, in chronological order.

I: 62%
II: 66%
III: 80%
IV: 94%
V: 97%
VI: 78%

All of the new trilogy are rated as fresh movies, indeed, reading the short snips of the reviews tends to portray the movies in a positive light. The interesting thing is, in a lot of the Episode III reviews, critics speak rather unfavourably of the preceding two.

I am not writing this to defend the movies, however it sees to me as though they are completely unfairly represented, they may not be the greatest movies ever made, but they certainly aren't the travesties "true star wars fans" seem to make them out to be. Indeed, Episode III beats out episode VI for percentages.

It is something that I have found that has occurred for Indiana Jones as well. There is a general distaste for the must recent film, I for one thoroughly enjoyed it, and felt the SPOILER inter-dimensional twist >>>> was in line with the series mythology, especially considering we have had 900 year old men guarding the holy grail in previous entries. So what did critics think?

It got 77% on Rottentomatoes, far from a bad score.
Similarly, Spiderman 3? ... 63%... its not as good as the previous films, but it certainly wasn't as awful as some made it out to be. It had its problems (lets not even bring up emo spiderman) but it had its good moments too.


SHORT:
Why are peoples opinions of movies collectively changed over the time. Such that films which are really not that bad receive increasingly bad reputations over the course of time.

Thanks if you read all that, I am interested in hearing opinions
PSN: Noverion
#2
New Star Wars films were crap. The script was terrible, the story line was rubbish, the acting was dreadful and it had none of the feel of the originals.

Same thing goes for the new Indiana Jones film.

I hated all the Spiderman films though.
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#3
Quote by jambi_mantra
New Star Wars films were crap. The script was terrible, the story line was rubbish, the acting was dreadful and it had none of the feel of the originals.

Same thing goes for the new Indiana Jones film.

I hated all the Spiderman films though.


I just saw what you did there.
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#5
Quote by jambi_mantra
New Star Wars films were crap. The script was terrible, the story line was rubbish, the acting was dreadful and it had none of the feel of the originals.

Pretty much this. Both actors for Anakin were horrible actors, although that may be because of the horrible script, and the fact the Lucas did nearly EVERY SINGLE SHOT in front of a greenscreen.

Lucas relied way too much on effects and flashy stuff to carry the movie, and, tbh, I thought the Phantom Menace was the best of them all, because it actually had sets and good acting from Liam Neeson.

EDIT: that's not to say that bad movies that get bad criticisms aren't enjoyable. Most of Arnold Schwarzenegger's movies were really, really bad, but they were entertaining, and thus enjoyable. That's the beauty of cinema, something doesn't have to be seen as "good" in order to be "good to watch".
Last edited by CoreysMonster at Aug 16, 2010,
#6
Quote by Laces Out Danny
I just saw what you did there.



What, gave perfectly valid reasons for why the films are hated? They're terrible films and that's why they get crap reviews.
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#7
Quote by jambi_mantra
What, gave perfectly valid reasons for why the films are hated? They're terrible films and that's why they get crap reviews.


The point is they didn't get crap reviews.
I understand that the review isn't all that matters, but they were generally accepted as being reasonably good, Episode 1 and 2, but are seen now is awful. I find it interesting, I was looking for opinions on why that was.
I personally find Episode 2 to be the worst be a considerable margin. And I agree that in terms of dialogue, there are some excruciating moments, however Episode 3 is an extremely well told story, I just watched it this morning and was impressed in how Lucas handled Anakin's demise, and indeed, it seems as though at the time reviewers agreed with me, 80% is too high an average score to merely disregard the film is crap, which so many seem to do.
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#8
Episode III was awesome.

And Twilight isn't that bad. I have seen far worse movies.
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#9
I think the Star Wars prequels are good. I can watch them a bunch of times in a row, which I can't do with the original trilogy.
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#10
Quote by Noverion
The point is they didn't get crap reviews.
I understand that the review isn't all that matters, but they were generally accepted as being reasonably good, Episode 1 and 2, but are seen now is awful. I find it interesting, I was looking for opinions on why that was.
I personally find Episode 2 to be the worst be a considerable margin. And I agree that in terms of dialogue, there are some excruciating moments, however Episode 3 is an extremely well told story, I just watched it this morning and was impressed in how Lucas handled Anakin's demise, and indeed, it seems as though at the time reviewers agreed with me, 80% is too high an average score to merely disregard the film is crap, which so many seem to do.

Of course they didn't get crap reviews. You know what happens when a critic gives a shit review of a studios big-budget, uber-hyped movie?
The studio stops sending the critic advance screening invites, stuff like that. In short, giving a really big, expensive film a poor review is often a very, very bad move for a film critic.
#11
Wait wait wait wait.

Episode VI only got 78%? Episode VI is awesome.

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#12
Quote by MightyAl
Of course they didn't get crap reviews. You know what happens when a critic gives a shit review of a studios big-budget, uber-hyped movie?
The studio stops sending the critic advance screening invites, stuff like that. In short, giving a really big, expensive film a poor review is often a very, very bad move for a film critic.

this.

Thank god for internet reviews and sites like Rotten Tomatoes.
#13
I don't know anyone that liked Final Fantasy : The Spirits Within. I thought it was a cracking film for CGI.
#14
Quote by -xCaMRocKx-
Wait wait wait wait.

Episode VI only got 78%? Episode VI is awesome.

Exactly. It's got the gold bikini, and arguably the most important fight scene of the entire trilogy.
#15
Quote by JackalUK
I don't know anyone that liked Final Fantasy : The Spirits Within. I thought it was a cracking film for CGI.


It is!

Sure it has nothing to do with Final Fantasy really but hey... it's a great movie
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#16
Quote by MightyAl
Exactly. It's got the gold bikini, and arguably the most important fight scene of the entire trilogy.

I've never really understood why people say Return of the Jedi is the weakest film of the trilogy. It's (IMO) just as good as the previous two.

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#17
Quote by -xCaMRocKx-
I've never really understood why people say Return of the Jedi is the weakest film of the trilogy. It's (IMO) just as good as the previous two.

Probably the Ewoks.
#18
Quote by jambi_mantra
New Star Wars films were crap. The script was terrible, the story line was rubbish, the acting was dreadful and it had none of the feel of the originals.


I actually enjoyed Ewan McGregor's Obi Wan and Liam Neeson's Qui Gon. Other than that I'm with you on the acting. I do believe though the films pretty much suck due to they're feel.

I mean, I'm 18 now so I pretty much grew with these movies and I never quite understood why Star Wars was such a huge phenomenon. When I first saw the original trilogy a couple years back I finally got it. They rock. The new one's just feel so forced. And Jar Jar Binks is a pretty annoying piece of crap. What a huge fail to make a new Chewie.
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#19
Quote by MightyAl
Of course they didn't get crap reviews. You know what happens when a critic gives a shit review of a studios big-budget, uber-hyped movie?
The studio stops sending the critic advance screening invites, stuff like that. In short, giving a really big, expensive film a poor review is often a very, very bad move for a film critic.


I'm almost certain that's not always true. I've read plenty of reviews in big newspapers (in the UK) like the Telegraph and the Times where they give big blockbuster films really poor reviews. I don't think that film companies are so short-sighted that, because of one bad review for one of their movies, they pass up the opportunity to get good reviews and publicity for films they make in the future.
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#20
Quote by MightyAl
Probably the Ewoks.


Please sir, go wash your mouth with soap!

Bad mouthing Ewoks is like bad mouthing the freaking Pope! No wait, you can bad mouth the Pope all you want, just leave the Ewoks alone.
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#21
Quote by MightyAl
Probably the Ewoks.


Yes.
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#22
The Ewoks are amazing and you all know it.
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#23
Quote by bowdowntomono
I'm almost certain that's not always true. I've read plenty of reviews in big newspapers (in the UK) like the Telegraph and the Times where they give big blockbuster films really poor reviews. I don't think that film companies are so short-sighted that, because of one bad review for one of their movies, they pass up the opportunity to get good reviews and publicity for films they make in the future.

I didn't mean like a permanent blacklist or anything, and certainly not for just one bad review.
But consistently panning things(and an observed effect in market research), you'll get less cooperation from the studios(like you may get to the screening, but they won't answer your questions afterwards), which really is just inconveniencing you, the critic.
The thing is, it's not just the bad review that gets you 'noticed' in that way. It's the focus groups that say "I read <insert paper here>, and if the critic says a film is shit, I'll give it a miss". If the focus groups are telling you "I read <insert paper here>, and when the critic tells me a film is shit, I'll go see it if I liked the trailer", then they won't care.
#24
i grew up with the original ones, much like you grew up with the newer ones. Now, I actually quite liked the first new one when I saw it the first couple of times, though with hindsight I've started to dislike it.

Anyway, back to the original point, I agree that growing up with something makes you a bit too attached to it, and nostalgia etc. plays a pretty big part, but at the same time if george lucas makes three more star wars films in about 15 years with the worst character of all time, we'll see what you think of them.
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#25
Quote by paquiquinho
Please sir, go wash your mouth with soap!

Bad mouthing Ewoks is like bad mouthing the freaking Pope! No wait, you can bad mouth the Pope all you want, just leave the Ewoks alone.

FYI, when I played SWG, I ground out MCommando just so i could shoot Ewoks with a flamethrower.
/flamecone2 ftw, bitches!


Gungans made a much better noise when they died, though.
#26
Quote by paquiquinho
Please sir, go wash your mouth with soap!

Bad mouthing Ewoks is like bad mouthing the freaking Pope! No wait, you can bad mouth the Pope all you want, just leave the Ewoks alone.


Ewoks would beat the sh*t out of the damned annoying Gungans.


Ewan McGregor was my favorite actor in the prequels. Hayden Christensen sucked, hard.


And the Return of the Jedi is the most important movie of the original trilogy.
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#27
Quote by MightyAl
Probably the Ewoks.

They've never really bothered me to be honest. I can see why they would annoy people, but I don't think it's fair to say VI is a weak film because of them. It ties up everything perfectly, and is probably the most important film of the series.

One thing about VI I do hate however, is that alien band in Jabba's palace. It seemed very out of place.

ANYWAY...

In regards to the original post: The more I see the prequal trilogy, the more I see plot holes and bad writing. Not to say I hate them, but I can definitely see why people do.

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#28
Quote by MightyAl
I didn't mean like a permanent blacklist or anything, and certainly not for just one bad review.
But consistently panning things(and an observed effect in market research), you'll get less cooperation from the studios(like you may get to the screening, but they won't answer your questions afterwards), which really is just inconveniencing you, the critic.
The thing is, it's not just the bad review that gets you 'noticed' in that way. It's the focus groups that say "I read <insert paper here>, and if the critic says a film is shit, I'll give it a miss". If the focus groups are telling you "I read <insert paper here>, and when the critic tells me a film is shit, I'll go see it if I liked the trailer", then they won't care.


Ah, I see what you mean. I think I over-interpreted your post :P

On topic with Star Wars, I'm not a huge fan of any of the films really, though I really liked Phantom Menace when it came out. I still think that one is as good as the original 3, but Episode 2 and 3 were poor.
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#29
Quote by -xCaMRocKx-
They've never really bothered me to be honest. I can see why they would annoy people, but I don't think it's fair to say VI is a weak film because of them. It ties up everything perfectly.

One thing about VI I do hate however, is that alien band in Jabba's palace. It seemed very out of place.

ANYWAY...

In regards to the original post: The more I see the prequal trilogy, the more I see plot holes and bad writing. Not to say I hate them, but I can definitely see why people do.

The big musical number in the remastered version was pretty dumb, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thb_aa55-nI
#30
Quote by MightyAl
The big musical number in the remastered version was pretty dumb, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Thb_aa55-nI



RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE.

EDIT: I love that Robot Chicken clip though.

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Last edited by -xCaMRocKx- at Aug 16, 2010,
#31
Quote by -xCaMRocKx-


RAGE RAGE RAGE RAGE.

I mean, if Jabba was going to feed someone to the Rancor, why did it have to be Oola? Couldn't it have been Sy instead?
#32
Quote by MightyAl
I mean, if Jabba was going to feed someone to the Rancor, why did it have to be Oola? Couldn't it have been Sy instead?


Agreed. Sy has to be the ugliest damn thing in the whole Star Wars universe.

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#33
I'll have you know EP's 4/5/6 deserve 100%.

EP6 was still amazing - so what if the Ewoks were purely there to be a toy to be sold on mass - inspite of that it is still a great film. It also has my favorite ever star wars song in there, roughly the bit where Vader says "Your - sister..." - frankly that section is supreme to all over music around, the use of a choir is awe-inspiring.

Aside from my Star Wars mucho Grande Love I do know what you're talking about - but at the end of the day, Critics opinions aren't worth jack shit in the end, if you like it that's all that matters.

As for people hating, that's just people - take Lost and Hero's, first season is amazing - then suddenly a massive blackhole opens beneath the storyline and suddenly it's utter crap. I get angry when it could of been something so much more, like with Hero's - they could of took that into epic situations - but no, suddenly Hayden's a lesbian? WTF? FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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#34
Quote by Anthony1991
I'll have you know EP's 4/5/6 deserve 100%.


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#35
Episode 1 was an abortion of a movie. Episode 2 wasn't much better.

Episode 3 was good, but had pacing problems.

I think the reviews are pretty accurate.
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#36
i don't remember there being anywhere near as much of that crappy music band bit in the original (non-remastered) ones. Granted i was younger so my suckometer mightn't have been as well-developed, but yeah. there are a bunch of blatant "improved" bits in the remasters.
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#37
Quote by Dave_Mc
i don't remember there being anywhere near as much of that crappy music band bit in the original (non-remastered) ones. Granted i was younger so my suckometer mightn't have been as well-developed, but yeah. there are a bunch of blatant "improved" bits in the remasters.


I know it's in the original version, but I can't remember to what extent. I do remember they were puppets, and they looked bloody terrible.

I have both versions, I might go have a look later on.

EDIT: Most of the "improved" bits really annoy me. Lucas must think that in order for his older movies to stay fresh, he has to shove as much shit into every shot as possible. Like at Mos Eisley in episode IV, all the dinosaur things walking into the shot. Why George, why!?

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Last edited by -xCaMRocKx- at Aug 16, 2010,
#38
EP1 is kind of a throw away - purely by looking at Yoda - was Yoda ill during the filming and did they just hire Kermit the Frogs retarded cousin?

EP2 ISN'T that bad - if anything it's just average, but average with Star Wars doesn't exist - because Star Wars is awesome, so in this mind set it's either amazing or shit.

EP3 was actually pretty good apart from - if you've never seen the cartoon things before EP3 its like - WTF WHOSE GRIEVOUS? It's good but it's just not -that- good, i think it lacked the feel of the originals and there was no 'funny' sections if you know what i mean, there's no wise ass Han Solo Jedi - you have Obi Wan becoming funny and the best character in the movies.

EP4/5/6 =

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#39
Quote by -xCaMRocKx-
I know it's in the original version, but I can't remember to what extent. I do remember they were puppets, and they looked bloody terrible.

I have both versions, I might go have a look later on.

EDIT: Most of the "improved" bits really annoy me. Lucas must think that in order for his older movies to stay fresh, he has to shove as much shit into every shot as possible. Like at Mos Eisley in episode IV, all the dinosaur things walking into the shot. Why George, why!?


yeah i know, it's ridiculous. it's so obvious too.

and yeah, i mean the band was in the original, but i think nowhere near as much. could be wrong, though.
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#40
Quote by Dave_Mc
yeah i know, it's ridiculous. it's so obvious too.

and yeah, i mean the band was in the original, but i think nowhere near as much. could be wrong, though.


Can you link me to the originals? I've never seen them!
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