#1
Well i've come up with a very nice and dark classical type waltz riff (i'm detuned to drop c right now) and i'm trying to help put that style throughout the song more. This is rather difficult for me since i've never written a neoclassical song, so i was wondering if any of you guys have any tips or songs/ bands to listen too. I know Malmsteen is a great shred guitar example, but i'm trying to write a song, not an 4 minute solo (not trying to put the guy down, just trying to explain my goal).

This will probably fall into the tech metal/neoclassical genre (parts of it are sounding a bit like a combo between old material of "the human abstract" and new "the black dahlia murder" if any of you are familiar with the two.

I've learned some theory recently but i'm still learning. I've been experimenting with some harmonized riffs (3rd's) in c harmonic minor to capture a melodic dual harmony. Is their anything you guys could suggest to listen to or read to help capture some of the darker elements of classical music? I know this is pretty vague but i feel any general advice right now could be very helpful. Thanks
#2
As far as I know, Malmsteen puts 4 minute solos because his is instrumental. Neoclassical is heavily influenced by classical music, so I don't understand why you find an urge to play in drop C. Riffs can very well be dark even without drop tunage. Also neoclassical is VERY melodic, not "bruutalz", from what I've heard at least. I say you try and learn some neoclassical songs to get a basic ideas of how they're written, but you'd also need to observe the orchestra part.


Edit:
Shred is ESSENTIAL in such genre.
Last edited by Zeletros at Aug 17, 2010,
#3
Quote by Zeletros
As far as I know, Malmsteen puts 4 minute solos because his is instrumental. Neoclassical is heavily influenced by classical music, so I don't understand why you find an urge to play in drop C. Riffs can very well be dark even without drop tunage. Also neoclassical is VERY melodic, not "bruutalz", from what I've heard at least. I say you try and learn some neoclassical songs to get a basic ideas of how they're written, but you'd also need to observe the orchestra part.


Edit:
Shred is ESSENTIAL in such genre.


Well i guess you've come into this thread with the preconceived notion that drop c tuning is only for brootalzzz playing, which is very far from correct. I've mainly used it to make some deep/extended chord progressions possible that normally wouldn't be, not so i can hit the low c with a breakdown after another breakdown. I could see where your general reaction would be that since certain players have abused the tuning where there is a general "eye roll" when someone says drop c. I simply enjoy the tuning for some of the chords that are possible vs standard (this riff in particular requires the low c for the first note as a pedal point, otherwise i'd be standard 1/2 step or 1 step down). Don't misunderstand this as a flame attempt, i just wish to explain my reasoning for the tuning.

Yes there will be a shred solo that i have traced out right now, but i don't want to create a song of pure shred, I'm trying to walk the line and make some more accessible music that doesn't give the average listener a headache and leave them without memorable riffs.

I've been listening to a lot of string sections specifically lately, any specific orchestra pieces that you could suggest?
#4
Truly I don't listen that much of neoclassical, I just don't enjoy all that shred. But... there is another genre which is close to what you probably want to do. Symphonic metal, it incorporates orchestral work as well but focus more on vocals and general "sounds good" than guitars. 1 band I truly enjoy is Epica. Here are some of their pieces. They don't even have guitar solos, at least in those songs. But it's a good example of orchestration work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAlRf9qf9d0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4YMs0x--fk&feature=related


edit:
And yea, I'm always thinking of down tunage as "let's go bruutalz", I always play in standart as all my songs are, and changing tuning live is annoying.
Last edited by Zeletros at Aug 17, 2010,
#5
Use those minor third harmonies sparingly. I can't tell you how often I've heard a metalcore song that goes CHUG CHUG CHUG then a melodic minor 3rd harmony throughout the entire section, then CHUG CHUG CHUG again it's ****ing annoying. I'm not trying to say you are going to abuse them but keep that in mind. Also, if you want to write actual classical metal and not just "neoclassical" speed metal (don't get me wrong, I love listening to Malmsteen, Becker, Friedman and all of those guys, but it's not truly classical at all), listen to some more classical music. It depends on what kind of music you want to write what "era" or "sub-genre" you should study, but my only advice is listen to a lot of that. Listen to what drives it forward, how it works, what the composers were thinking when they wrote it. Tap into that mindset and then you can start taking your classical influences and fusing them with metal.
#6
Yeah I know what you mean about the metalcore songs in 3rds. It definitely is bothersome for me as well and i'm definitely doing my best to avoid that. I suppose I'm going with a specific split between the romantic period (chopin) and some of the actual classical period (Beethoven & Bach)
#7
Edge of Sanity

Crimson is basically a death metal symphony/opera (not really an opera as it doesn't have that specific song form.)

There is some shred in there, but it's nothing I couldn't learn/play, ie it's not "I'm the fastest guitarist in the world!" type of shred.

It's melodic and gets the point across.

Most importantly: there are three or four VERY MEMORABLE riffs that by themselves could be played for 50 minutes straight due to their creativity/catchiness. These themes are echoed throughout the piece and revisited later in surprising and everchanging ways -

i.e. what is a "kick your grandmother in the face" death metal riff later comes up as a very light classical bit, or something very psychadelic or jazzy.

A symphony does just that: it focuses on four main themes with one primary theme (usually theme 4) throughout. Beethoven's 9th is a great example: "Ode to Joy" is played, or bits of it at least, in every movement, and even at times it is transposed into chromatic or diminished scales to sound very menacing indeed.

Between mvt. 3 and 4 the Ode to Joy does battle with a VERY metal-type dark, chaotic section.

That's more of what you want to do with "Classical" metal than write A LOT of parts. Develop a handful of good ones and allow them to turn the battlefields sticky with blood and entrails.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#8
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
Edge of Sanity

Crimson is basically a death metal symphony/opera (not really an opera as it doesn't have that specific song form.)

There is some shred in there, but it's nothing I couldn't learn/play, ie it's not "I'm the fastest guitarist in the world!" type of shred.

It's melodic and gets the point across.

Most importantly: there are three or four VERY MEMORABLE riffs that by themselves could be played for 50 minutes straight due to their creativity/catchiness. These themes are echoed throughout the piece and revisited later in surprising and everchanging ways -

i.e. what is a "kick your grandmother in the face" death metal riff later comes up as a very light classical bit, or something very psychadelic or jazzy.

A symphony does just that: it focuses on four main themes with one primary theme (usually theme 4) throughout. Beethoven's 9th is a great example: "Ode to Joy" is played, or bits of it at least, in every movement, and even at times it is transposed into chromatic or diminished scales to sound very menacing indeed.

Between mvt. 3 and 4 the Ode to Joy does battle with a VERY metal-type dark, chaotic section.

That's more of what you want to do with "Classical" metal than write A LOT of parts. Develop a handful of good ones and allow them to turn the battlefields sticky with blood and entrails.


F*king epic quotes in this post.
Thats some great advice and thats really what i'm going for, I'll check this stuff out. Thanks a bunch
#10
Quote by ShadesOfGray
Isn't waltz more defined by the rythm & time signature then harmony & melody?

I've written a dark waltz.

Trouble is where to go with it?

It's not like a bunch of metallers are going to grab a partner and start Waltzing!!
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#11
Quote by Bubonic Chronic
It's not like a bunch of metallers are going to grab a partner and start Waltzing!!


Ever been to a Finntroll concert?
Or any other Folk Metal band?