#1
I recently began learning modes, and understanding them quite well, when I discovered this...

e-----------------------------------------------12-14-16-
B-------------------------------------12-14-15-
G----------------------------11-13-14---------
D-------------------11-12-14------------------
A----------11-12-14---------------------------
E-10-12-14------------------------------------


So, starting from the 12th fret E, we have E Mixolydian. Start the scale Two frets lower, and you end up with D Lydian.

From the 11th fret A, we have Ab Locrian. From the 11th fret G, we get F#/Gb Phrygian.

And from the 14th fret A, we get B Dorian.

So tell me, why do all the modes fit into the SAME SCALE?

This is mind blowing for me, because if I want to solo in a particular mode, all I have to do is goto the root note of a particular mode, and play with the proper feel.

So, any feedback on my discovery?
#2
Honestly,

I'd start over, the reason you are confused is you're going about it the wrong way. A little knowledge can sometimes really do more harm than good. I'd suggest learning the proper way.

Learn the connection with Major scales and the chords they are played against really really well.

Learn triads and extended chords really really well.

Learn relationships between scale patterns and their underlying chords.

Understand tonal harmony versus diatonic harmony and the implications that means with modes.

Nice try, but nearly all attempts Ive seen for one to understand modes without a foundation end up really way off.

Best,

Sean
#3
its because all the modes contain the notes of the major scale i.e. all the modes are the same.

edit:

the best way to learn modes(in my opinion) is to realize the modes are just the major scale with the root note starting on a different note of the scale so

e ionian(major scale)

e|--------------------------------------
b|--------------------------------------
g|--6--8--9---------------------------
d|--6--7--9---------------------------
a|------7--9---------------------------
e|--------------------------------------

move the same exact scale down two frets(the root note is still the 7th fret of the a) and you get e dorian

e|--------------------------------------
b|--------------------------------------
g|--4--6--7---------------------------
d|--4--5--7---------------------------
a|------5--7---------------------------
e|--------------------------------------


so by playing the scale with the root note being the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, or 7th note of the scale, you get the ionian, dorian, phrygian, lydian, mixolydian, aeolian, or locrian mode(respectively).
Last edited by rickyj at Aug 23, 2010,
#4
listen to sean, not rickyj

playing a major scale with a flattened 7th doesn't mean you're playing modally, it just means you're playing a major scale with a flattened 7th.
#5
To Sean0913...

I AM learning the correlations between chords and modes, along with how each mode is an alteration of an existing scale, such as the Lydian being a major scale, starting and ending on the first and Fourth degree, and the Dorian as a minor scale with an augmented 6th.

Ive recently went over alot of material concerning 9th and 11th chords, and Add9 and Add11 chords. I understand this structuring very well.

Understand tonal harmony versus diatonic harmony and the implications that means with modes.


That was the only one that made me go O.o . I think I understand it merely from the wording though, Such as Chordal roots and how they relate to the harmonies in the scales. I don't have lesson knowledge in this, but I have experience from composing, along with recent "revelations" of theory.

Id rather not say you assumed I knew NOTHING, but you implied it.
#6
Quote by z4twenny
listen to sean, not rickyj

playing a major scale with a flattened 7th doesn't mean you're playing modally, it just means you're playing a major scale with a flattened 7th.



the major modes are all the same, just with different intervals. thats what modes are and thats what makes them sound different.
#7
^ all modes and scales have different intervals yes. what makes a song modal is the way it sounds. this is why lots of bands play things in "locrian" but their song is actually a minor key tonality. metallica is an awesome example of this (as are most heavy metal bands) if the piece was actually modal it would come to rest at a diminished root chord which rarely ever happens (and usually when it does it doesn't sound at rest)
#9
Quote by Life Is Brutal
I recently began learning modes, and understanding them quite well, when I discovered this...

e-----------------------------------------------12-14-16-
B-------------------------------------12-14-15-
G----------------------------11-13-14---------
D-------------------11-12-14------------------
A----------11-12-14---------------------------
E-10-12-14------------------------------------


So, starting from the 12th fret E, we have E Mixolydian. Start the scale Two frets lower, and you end up with D Lydian.

From the 11th fret A, we have Ab Locrian. From the 11th fret G, we get F#/Gb Phrygian.

And from the 14th fret A, we get B Dorian.

So tell me, why do all the modes fit into the SAME SCALE?

This is mind blowing for me, because if I want to solo in a particular mode, all I have to do is goto the root note of a particular mode, and play with the proper feel.

So, any feedback on my discovery?

those would just be different positions of the major scale not modes. they are given modal names however because the modes share the same notes as their parent major scale. they just share the same notes like how the relative minor shares the same notes as its relative major scale. far from being "the same" though.
#10
im going to recommend this book over a 15 minute video. i ended up reading it about 4 times, if you've got the basics of music theory down (interval naming, chord construction etc) then it would be a good book to get started with. probably a good book to "end" with too, its pretty much got everything in there, voice leading, 4 part writing etc etc.

http://www.amazon.com/HarperCollins-College-Outline-Theory-Harpercollins/dp/0064671682
Last edited by z4twenny at Aug 23, 2010,
#11
Quote by Life Is Brutal
To Sean0913...

I AM learning the correlations between chords and modes, along with how each mode is an alteration of an existing scale, such as the Lydian being a major scale, starting and ending on the first and Fourth degree, and the Dorian as a minor scale with an augmented 6th.

Ive recently went over alot of material concerning 9th and 11th chords, and Add9 and Add11 chords. I understand this structuring very well.


That was the only one that made me go O.o . I think I understand it merely from the wording though, Such as Chordal roots and how they relate to the harmonies in the scales. I don't have lesson knowledge in this, but I have experience from composing, along with recent "revelations" of theory.

Id rather not say you assumed I knew NOTHING, but you implied it.


That's fine, but understanding how to form modes and how and when they are used as modes is entirely my point. If you miss that you've missed the entire train.

Modes are derived from the Major scale, but how they function and where they are modal is everything.

Dorian is not a Minor scale with an augmented 6th, and here's why. A Minor scale has a b6 to start with. Augment a 6th and its now a #6, and that's not a Dorian. A Dorian has b6 raised up 1/2 step, to make it essentially a Major 6, also called a Natural 6th.

I'm glad you understand advanced chordal construction, but again that's not really a factor unless you make the whole composition modal as well. This simplest form of a Modal use is a simple drone that never changes the note. An A Bass note, sustained over A Phrygian, will cause that melody to sound like, and resolve to A Phrygian and nothing else.

Start adding chords, and you risk hearing that A Phrygian progression resolving to F# Major and only F# Major, unless you know what you are doing.

Best,

Sean
#12
Quote by rickyj
here watch this and the second part, it will clear up all of your confusion and possibly teach you something else


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKbPIGnqt80



I would recommend not learning about modes from that video. The result (you thinking that all modes are the same scale) is that you end up being misled.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 23, 2010,
#13
Dorian is not a Minor scale with an augmented 6th, and here's why. A Minor scale has a b6 to start with. Augment a 6th and its now a #6, and that's not a Dorian. A Dorian has b6 raised up 1/2 step, to make it essentially a Major 6, also called a Natural 6th.


I should not have used the word Augmented there, but I have always considered the word to mean raised.

But I still haven't gotten the info Im looking for now. If you play the entire Ab Locrian pattern, why does it sync up with Gb Phrygian? (Along with all the other scalar intervals in that pattern? Why can I not say that Gb Phrygian contains G Lydian?)
Last edited by Life Is Brutal at Aug 23, 2010,
#14
^ because they're 2 different modes, with 2 different root keys, with 2 completely different intervalic patterns to them. Ab rests on Ab, Gb rests on Gb. i again recommend the book i linked to before, it works its way up to modes (and if you do the exercises it all makes sense!) its alot like people on here stating "C major is A minor" which it is NOT, although they do contain the same notes, the intervals of the scales, the root notes and individual intervals of the scale construction are completely different.

edit ztoner metaphor - coke, pepsi, dr pepper and mountain dew all pretty much contain the same stuff, cabonated water, citric acid, coloring, artificial sweeteners, high fructose corn syrup. but they don't taste alike do they? because all that stuff is used differently in each drink. its put together differently and uniquely mixed for each drink to make one taste great, another like battery acid and another like some wonderful nectar of the gods.

once you learn enough about "sodas" you start learning how to mix them together differently to get unique individual flavors (or as we called them as a kid "suicides")

not the best metaphor but can i get a point for trying?
Last edited by z4twenny at Aug 23, 2010,
#15
^^Because there's absolutely no point - that particular piece of "information" is of no use to you when it comes to understanding modes, neither is it any use when it comes to simply learning where to find them as it overlaps and repeats other stuff you already know which is much more important. In short it's a redundant fact that is best ignored.

Understanding the relationship between parallel modes is vital, learning how the different patterns of intervals will function in the same context - ie over the same tonic.

Understanding the realtionship between the modes relative to the parent major scale is useful for figuring out where things are and also allows you to work out what key signature things will be in. From a compositional and improvisational point of view it's not really much more useful than that though.

Understanding the relationship between two relative modes is pointless, it doesn't give you any information you don't already have and it doesn't do anything to further your understanding of the theory behind them. Without the parent major scale as your point of reference you've got nothing useful to relate that information to, and without that it becomes as good as useless to you.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
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...it's a seagull

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Last edited by steven seagull at Aug 23, 2010,
#16
Quote by steven seagull
^^Because there's absolutely no point - that particular piece of "information" is of no use to you when it comes to understanding modes, neither is it any use when it comes to simply learning where to find them as it overlaps and repeats other stuff you already know which is much more important. In short it's a redundant fact that is best ignored.

Understanding the relationship between parallel modes is vital, learning how the different patterns of intervals will function in the same context - ie over the same tonic.

Understanding the realtionship between the modes relative to the parent major scale is useful for figuring out where things are and also allows you to work out what key signature things will be in. From a compositional and improvisational point of view it's not really much more useful than that though.
.


You seem to be saying that understanding the mode to parent scale relationship is less vital than the parallel relationship.

IMO both perspectives are equally vital and useful.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 23, 2010,
#17
Oh, THIS thread again.

TS, use both ideas to approach modes. You can never have to many ways of approaching something. Relation to the parent scale is better for learning, parallel scale is good for playing.

You could also do what I do and think of each mode as its own special scale completely independent of any other scale (the same way you think of minor and major)
Last edited by tubatom868686 at Aug 23, 2010,
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky
You seem to be saying that understanding the mode to parent scale relationship is less vital than the parallel relationship.

IMO both perspectives are equally vital and useful.

Other way round, I think making the effort to understand parallel modes is the most important part because that's what tends to get missed.

Most guitarists have some understanding of the concept of relative modes, even if it's a flawed one.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#19
Quote by Life Is Brutal


So tell me, why do all the modes fit into the SAME SCALE?

This is mind blowing for me, because if I want to solo in a particular mode, all I have to do is goto the root note of a particular mode, and play with the proper feel.

So, any feedback on my discovery?

Certain modes fit into the same scale because they are different modes of the same scale.

W W H W W W H - this is the major scale it's our parent scale. A mode would be taking this step pattern in the same order and moving the root to a different place so that it's like all the steps have shifted one place over. In fact this is the first "mode" of the major scale.

W H W W W H W - Dorian scale - this is the second "mode" of the major scale it has the same sequence of half and whole steps but different starting position because we have moved the root to a different place in the scale.

H W W W H W W - Phrygian scale - the third mode of the major scale. Again it has the same step sequence - namely it is made up of two half tones that are separated by three steps of a whole tone on one side and two steps of a whole tone on the other side.

Etc Etc there are seven different permutations of this scale. Each permutation is called a mode. And that is why all modes seem to fit in the same scale because they are modes of the same scale.

I'm gonna pull this one out again...


I wrote a couple of posts a while back to help explain modes. I put some links in my sig because the topic comes up regularly. Have a read and if you don't get it let me know I'd appreciate the feedback.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Aug 24, 2010,
#20
Quote by steven seagull
Other way round, I think making the effort to understand parallel modes is the most important part because that's what tends to get missed.

Most guitarists have some understanding of the concept of relative modes, even if it's a flawed one.


They are both important.

This idea of pitting pieces of information against each other like its some kind of contest for "most important piece of information" really misses the point of learning information in the 1st place.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 24, 2010,
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
They are both important.

This idea of pitting pieces of information against each other like its some kind of contest for "most important piece of information" really misses the point of learning information in the 1st place.

I never said it was a contest - once again you're putting words into my mouth and looking for an argument that isn't there.

I do wish you wouldn't keep doing it because you're a knowledgeable chap and generally fairly amicable...it's just every now and again you get your belligerent hat on and feel the need to start a fight over nothing.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

Quote by Dave_Mc
i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


stuffmycatswatchontv.tumblr.com
#22
Quote by steven seagull
I never said it was a contest - once again you're putting words into my mouth and looking for an argument that isn't there.

I do wish you wouldn't keep doing it because you're a knowledgeable chap and generally fairly amicable...it's just every now and again you get your belligerent hat on and feel the need to start a fight over nothing.



When you say one thing is more important than another, or that something "isn't very useful".... thats the contest. You're opening the doors for argument by presenting that type of perspective.

If you're not looking for an argument, why not just express the merits of one perspective and leave it at that?
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 24, 2010,
#23
Thank you, 20tigers.

You put it all in a way that I could understand, and explained why there were the intervals of all the modes but in different keys, answering my initial question.

I think Ill also check your sig links.

So, thank you all, and I will regard all the information in this thread, and pursue any information you have told me to learn.
#24
if you think of the chord progression as a whole, when you make your solo, don't think of modes, just think of the scale the progression is in. if you treat each chord individually, use the modes that fit the chords, this works great because non-diatonic chords become easy, for example if a chord is Cmajadd#11, C Lydian is the only mode with that #11, or if its Cdominant7, C Mixolydian.

If you want to play modally but play over the progression as a whole, it gets a little weirder. Which chord does the progression resolve to? If its Fmajor, Gmajor, those 2 chords are in the key of C, but it resolves to G instead of C. G is the 5th degree of the Cmajor scale, and the 5th mode is Mixolydian, so you're now playing in G Mixolydian instead of C Ionian (the 1st mode), and then to bring out the mode's "flavor," 1st maybe you could change that Gmajor to a Gdominant7, and then, in your solo, there are notes that give that mode a specific sound. the degrees of mixolydian that make it sound like mixolydian (according to guitarlessons.com) are 1, 3, and b7. These notes, in G Mixolydian, are G, B, and F. You can use all the notes in the key of C for this progression, you may want to put more emphasis on G, B, and F (and now that I think about it, maybe D too, because its a chord tone in both Gmajor and Gdominant7), and resolve everything to G, meaning G should probably be the last note in your solo, melody, or riff.