#1
sorry if this sounds like a stupid/easy question, im just trying to get to grips with intervals!

between F sharp and B flat, the interval is perfect fourth. yay or nay?

surely, having an A# in the F# major scale makes this so, as A# is enharmonic Bb. or do enharmonic notes not count in intervals, and should this be a diminished fourth as there is only a B?

if this is completely wrong and stupid, please correct me aha.

thanks!
#2
I'm pretty should it is a diminished fourth, not a perfect fourth.
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#3
Quote by Aaron!!
sorry if this sounds like a stupid/easy question, im just trying to get to grips with intervals!

between F sharp and B flat, the interval is perfect fourth. yay or nay?

surely, having an A# in the F# major scale makes this so, as A# is enharmonic Bb. or do enharmonic notes not count in intervals, and should this be a diminished fourth as there is only a B?

if this is completely wrong and stupid, please correct me aha.

thanks!


Nay.

B is a Perfect 4th. Bb would be a dim 4.

I'd not call that interval a F# and Bb I'd refer to it as an A#.
Last edited by Sean0913 at Aug 26, 2010,
#4
EDIT:

P4 of F is Bb.
P4 of F# is B.
dim4 of F# is Bb.

A# is an augmented 3rd in key of F#. they are enharmonic but since each key uses each note (A, B, C, etc) only once, the letter dictates what scale degree.
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Last edited by gatechballer at Aug 26, 2010,
#5
F# to Bb is a diminished 4th. F# to A# is a major third. F# Major scale has a major third in it, not a diminished 4th, so A# is used over Bb.

Here's a tip that flies under the radar of most newcomers: You can determine the general interval (second, third, fourth, fifth, etc) by looking at the letter names. Hold up your dominant hand. Put up your thumb for F, your first finger for G, your second for A, and your third finger for B. How many fingers are you holding up? Four, so the interval between any F and any B is some kind of fourth.
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#6
Quote by Eastwinn
F# to Bb is a diminished 4th. F# to A# is a major third. F# Major scale has a major third in it, not a diminished 4th, so A# is used over Bb.

Here's a tip that flies under the radar of most newcomers: You can determine the general interval (second, third, fourth, fifth, etc) by looking at the letter names. Hold up your dominant hand. Put up your thumb for F, your first finger for G, your second for A, and your third finger for B. How many fingers are you holding up? Four, so the interval between any F and any B is some kind of fourth.



You can still use Bb as a dim4 even though it makes more sense to write A# as a major 3. A# has more practical use but Bb = dim4 is still correct
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#7
I mean that A# is used in the F# Major scale instead of Bb. You're correct.
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#9
Quote by Sean0913
I have to follow up with a question, on this.

Where do you use a dim4? Is it used in a Chord? Is it used in a scale? The existence of this in theory is one thing, but I can think of no applicable place for it.

Sean


Quartal theory. Chords are built on 4ths rather than 3rds.
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#10
Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it!

just another follow on question though.

If the higher note of the interval pair is a double flat or double sharp, how do you go about naming its quality?

as an example, like A and G double sharp.

thankss
#11
Quote by Aaron!!
Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it!

just another follow on question though.

If the higher note of the interval pair is a double flat or double sharp, how do you go about naming its quality?

as an example, like A and G double sharp.

thankss

Lets see... A to G is a seventh. A to G# would be a major seventh but since the G is double sharped, it would be an augmented seventh.

In relation to the natural intervals that occur in the major scale:
Perfect intervals become diminished by decreasing their size by one half step.
Major intervals become diminished by decreasing their size by two half steps.
All intervals become augmented by increasing their size by one half step.
Unisons cannot be diminished or minor.

If it were an interval like Ab to Gx I'm not sure what to call it. A doubly augmented seventh?
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Last edited by FacetOfChaos at Aug 27, 2010,
#12
Quote by FacetOfChaos
Lets see... A to G is a seventh. A to G# would be a major seventh but since the G is double sharped, it would be an augmented seventh.

In relation to the natural intervals that occur in the major scale:
Perfect intervals become diminished by decreasing it's size by one half step.
Major intervals become diminished by decreasing it's size by two half steps.
All intervals become augmented by increasing their size by one half step.
Unisons cannot be diminished or minor.

If it were an interval like Ab to Gx I'm not sure what to call it. A doubly augmented seventh?


that totally makes sense!

thank you so much man, seriously, i can't tell you how much you've helped me out!
#13
Quote by Sean0913
I have to follow up with a question, on this.

Where do you use a dim4? Is it used in a Chord? Is it used in a scale? The existence of this in theory is one thing, but I can think of no applicable place for it.

Sean


Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that's not obscure.

The point is that an F# to a Bb is a dim4. If it's not supposed to be a dim4, which in 99% of the cases it's not, then you named one of them wrong! Perhaps Gb to Bb was meant, for a major third, or maybe F# to A# was meant, for the same major third but with sharps.

You have to name the notes based on the intervals that are being achieved. The Major scale doesn't have any dim4s in there, so the way you named the notes better reflect that!

I know why you asked this question; just saying that the interval is a dim4 is unhelpful when everyone knows that the original poster simply named them wrong and probably meant a major third.
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#14
Quote by Eastwinn
Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything that's not obscure.

The point is that an F# to a Bb is a dim4. If it's not supposed to be a dim4, which in 99% of the cases it's not, then you named one of them wrong! Perhaps Gb to Bb was meant, for a major third, or maybe F# to A# was meant, for the same major third but with sharps.

You have to name the notes based on the intervals that are being achieved. The Major scale doesn't have any dim4s in there, so the way you named the notes better reflect that!

I know why you asked this question; just saying that the interval is a dim4 is unhelpful when everyone knows that the original poster simply named them wrong and probably meant a major third.


Exactly. That's my thinking as well. It's theoretical and hypothetical, but I cant think of many places in music where it would be renamed as a dim4th from a Major 3rd...and I spend a lot of time thinking of these things.

Quartal harmony uses 4ths but thats generally obscure, but thats the only instance I had thought of as a possibility for where you'd see both aug and diminished 4ths,since the whole intervallic structure is purely 4ths.

Best,

Sean