#1
Hey was looking for the which amp thread, has it dissapeared? if some knows where it is I would delete this.

anyway, Im moving into my own flat soon and can't be bothered luging my epihpone triggerman, (which is a tad boring aswell), up with me so Im looking at these 5 watts.
the contenders I saw were the fender champion 600, Vox AC4 TV8, Crate V5, Laney club 8. but am looking for advice, are there others?

I want good cleans, Have an ok pedal board (small clone, big muff clone, vox v847a, and a sd-2), I play mainly rock/pop stuff, (beatles libertines, idlewild).
#2
Quote by matthuman
Hey was looking for the which amp thread, has it dissapeared? if some knows where it is I would delete this.

anyway, Im moving into my own flat soon and can't be bothered luging my epihpone triggerman, (which is a tad boring aswell), up with me so Im looking at these 5 watts.
the contenders I saw were the fender champion 600, Vox AC4 TV8, Crate V5, Laney club 8. but am looking for advice, are there others?

I want good cleans, Have an ok pedal board (small clone, big muff clone, vox v847a, and a sd-2), I play mainly rock/pop stuff, (beatles libertines, idlewild).

Hard to say, but I love my Champ 600. All it needs is a matching 1x12" cab and your good to go.
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#3
here are some more options:
blackstar ht5
marshall class 5
engl gigmaster(15 watts with power soak- can be switched to 5 and 1 watts)
#4
Quote by philipk
here are some more options:
blackstar ht5
marshall class 5
engl gigmaster(15 watts with power soak- can be switched to 5 and 1 watts)



I have a class 5 as my college amp... I don't recommend it unless you're fine with only getting cleans and classic rock-esque gain from it. It's all on one channel with Volume, Treb, Mid, and Bass.

It does have a good classic rock tone to it though
#5
Quote by eds1275
I have a class 5 as my college amp... I don't recommend it unless you're fine with only getting cleans and classic rock-esque gain from it. It's all on one channel with Volume, Treb, Mid, and Bass.

It does have a good classic rock tone to it though

i can also recommend fuzz/od/dist pedals
#6
I think you would really like the Vox AC4. pop/rock is it's forte.
Call me Wes.
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Weber MASS Attenuator
#7
I was kinda leaning toward the fender and the vox, and I don't like the lack of tone control on the fender. The marshall is more expensive. And don't really want to invest in new pedal just now due to being a poor student.
#8
A Fender Champ through a decent 12" speaker configuration of some type is one of the sweetest amps ever made. Jeff Beck has been spotted using that setup on stage.
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#9
Quote by Cathbard
A Fender Champ through a decent 12" speaker configuration of some type is one of the sweetest amps ever made. Jeff Beck has been spotted using that setup on stage.


What year was his made in?

Jeff isn't really an amp guy though, he's going to be pretty much the same with a DSL, an SLO100 and whatever he uses (if they can achieve the same amount of distortion that is)
#10
Quote by matthuman
I was kinda leaning toward the fender and the vox, and I don't like the lack of tone control on the fender. The marshall is more expensive. And don't really want to invest in new pedal just now due to being a poor student.


Hard to say man, if you were running pedals id say the Fender is your best bet, but im clueless now bro. The Marshall IMO isn't worth the extra coin...The Vox sounds good, but I own a Champ 600 and I have to stick by it.
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#11
I think Its between the vox and the fender and the decision will be made after a go on each. thank for all the help.
If you have something in you sig about how bad rap music is or quotes from other users saying how great you are, chances are I don't care for you as a person.
#12
Quote by stykerwolf
What year was his made in?

Jeff isn't really an amp guy though, he's going to be pretty much the same with a DSL, an SLO100 and whatever he uses (if they can achieve the same amount of distortion that is)


I think he's using two live lately. One '58/'59 tweed and a '64/'65 BF. He only used the DSL for a tour or two because he pulled out an old non MV he owned and it blew it out of the water. The tone on Live at Ronnie Scott's is coming from that amp and IMO it's some of his best tone ever. I still haven't heard the new album with the Champs though.

TS, if you get the Champion 600 you have to run it through a different cab with a 12" speaker. The stock 6" and that little cab sound like ass. It doesn't break up too easily either which would probably be nice for indie type sounds.
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Last edited by mmolteratx at Aug 30, 2010,
#14
Quote by stykerwolf
What year was his made in?

Jeff isn't really an amp guy though, he's going to be pretty much the same with a DSL, an SLO100 and whatever he uses (if they can achieve the same amount of distortion that is)

The Champ 600 is the same circuitry as a '68 5F1 (a tweed) built on a PCB instead of a turret board. They are an amazingly simple design, you'd have to try pretty hard to screw it up - even if it was assembled by 14 yo kids. You'll get tweed tones out of it nicely. I built one in a biscuit tin and it sounds authentic. It's a safe bet. I run mine through a 1x12". Like I said, awesome amp with a crap speaker. Run it through a nice cab and you've got genuine Fender loveliness.
Jeff Beck may not be that much of an amp guy but he'd hardly use a little 5W'er at a huge gig if it didn't sound good would he?
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Last edited by Cathbard at Aug 31, 2010,
#15
Fender Vibro Champ?
I pick up my guitar and play
Just like Yesterday

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#16
Oh, and I must correct something. The 5F1 is a '58, not a '68. That was a typo. The 5E1 came out in 1955. Champs before that used a 6SJ7 instead of a 12AX7. Those are worth a small fortune nowadays. Real collectors item.
In 1956 the 5F1 came out. The difference to the 5E1 was the addition of a negative feedback path and the choke was replaced with a 10K resistor. I may add a choke to my clone before long, it's a better way to do it. I've tried mine with the NFB disconnected. It has more bark but connecting it makes it sound more like it's big brothers. I should add a switch to turn it on and off - sounds good both ways.

What I'd like to know, if somebody out there with one could look, is;
does the Champion 600 have the NFB loop?
It's easy to spot. It comes off the output of the output transformer and connects back to the cathode of the 12AX7 (pin 8) via a 22K resistor. Trace it back from the tip of the output jack if like.
The Champion 600 doesn't have a choke either does it? It looks like another transformer a tad smaller than the output transformer. You should clearly see three transformer looking things.
I'd like to know what the new Champion 600 really is, I never trust marketing spiels.

Edit: If you are poking around inside there be very careful, there is no bleed path for the filter caps when you turn it off so there will be close to 300V across them. I always discharge mine myself if I open it up.
Make sure you unplug it from the wall of course - and keep one hand in your pocket at all times after you slide out the chassis
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Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Aug 31, 2010,
#17
Vox AC4TV. I own one. More controllable than it's epiphone and fender equivalents, having a tone and attenuator. Bigger speaker (sounds less boxy)

I get a great blues breakup tone with it though a libertines sound should be easily achieved as i believe one of the guitarists uses Vox amps.
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#18
VHT Special or Classic 6 might suit you pretty well. But they're 6 watts not 5 switchable to 3 though.
#19
Blackstar ht5 all the way man great tone great versitality more of a metal amp but dtill has some great cleans
#20
Quote by thewhitey2112
Blackstar ht5 all the way man great tone great versitality more of a metal amp but dtill has some great cleans


Don’t take this advice. I have an HT5 and it’s NOT a good amp. It doesn’t sound any better than a good modeling amp and so many people are trying to unload them that they’re becoming hard to sell once you realize how bad they really are.
#21
Quote by Cathbard
i love old fenders


i do too

agreed on hooking a champ 600 to a 1x12 extension cab. i've done it and it sounds great. also as said the stock speaker is meh at best.

but some of the best classic rock songs were recorded on tweed champs. layla anyone?
#22
Quote by jpnyc
Don’t take this advice. I have an HT5 and it’s NOT a good amp. It doesn’t sound any better than a good modeling amp and so many people are trying to unload them that they’re becoming hard to sell once you realize how bad they really are.
Don't take this advice. It's a great amp if you can find a good deal on a used one. I just sold my head for $200. I "unloaded" it because I like to buy and try equipment, and I've got too much stuff. Plus I got a killer discount on a Tweaker. Not because it wasn't good.

Both the gain and clean channels are good. The FX loop is versatile and can be switched between rack and pedal FX. It's a very good design. And one of the few lost cost amps that offer 2 channels with f/s.

Besides, what's wrong with a "good" modeling amp?
#23
Quote by fly135
Besides, what's wrong with a "good" modeling amp?


Nothing—and that’s my point! Why buy an HT5 for cleans when a used 15-watt Valvetronix amp will sound better and do more? I’ve had an HT5 since December, and the only thing this amp has over modeling amps is that it can be overdriven into extreme metal territory. It’s a pretty awful choice for someone who wants cleans!
#24
I got the impression that he wanted a amp that would work with his pedalboard. The HT-5 is perfect for that. I would personally buy a SCXD over an HT-5 because the cleans are awesome and the voices are as good as most distortion pedals.

But a good deal on a used HT-5 would win out over a Valvetronix for me. YMMV

Quite frankly, I don't think any amp sounds the same to everyone's ears. I just got the Tweaker and was surprised at how dark and dare I say muddy the tone was. I didn't hear that in GC. Perhaps because I was using an expensive strat and the Egnator cab in the store. And it sounded completely different with my cab and a humbucker guitar. Or perhaps because they just don't all sound the same and it's a luck of the draw on preamp tubes.
#25
I was never impressed with the HT5, seemed a bit - I don't know; not lifeless just not entirely living, like it was bionic.

I'd say go with the Vox simply because Vox is the name for pop amps.
Unless you want something that is a little more Marshall-y, then look into Blackheart. My Little Giant has gotten along wonderfully with all the pedals I have given it.
#26
Quote by Cathbard
Oh, and I must correct something. The 5F1 is a '58, not a '68. That was a typo. The 5E1 came out in 1955. Champs before that used a 6SJ7 instead of a 12AX7. Those are worth a small fortune nowadays. Real collectors item.
In 1956 the 5F1 came out. The difference to the 5E1 was the addition of a negative feedback path and the choke was replaced with a 10K resistor. I may add a choke to my clone before long, it's a better way to do it. I've tried mine with the NFB disconnected. It has more bark but connecting it makes it sound more like it's big brothers. I should add a switch to turn it on and off - sounds good both ways.

What I'd like to know, if somebody out there with one could look, is;
does the Champion 600 have the NFB loop?
It's easy to spot. It comes off the output of the output transformer and connects back to the cathode of the 12AX7 (pin 8) via a 22K resistor. Trace it back from the tip of the output jack if like.
The Champion 600 doesn't have a choke either does it? It looks like another transformer a tad smaller than the output transformer. You should clearly see three transformer looking things.
I'd like to know what the new Champion 600 really is, I never trust marketing spiels.


http://support.fender.com/schematics/guitar_amplifiers/Champion%20600%20Schematic.pdf

.02uf coupling cap between the preamp stages replaced by full tone stack, 22uf cathode bypass cap on both preamp stages, diode rectifier 2.2k NFB resistor. Those stuck out to me. I'll go look again for more differences.
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#27
If you want some vintage Marshally crunch but aren't a fan of the Class 5, try the Blackheart Little Giant. It's got TMB tone controls with a volume and no gain knob, switchable from 5 to 3 watts so you can still crank it up for breakup without blowing out your ears.
#28
Quote by mmolteratx
http://support.fender.com/schematics/guitar_amplifiers/Champion%20600%20Schematic.pdf

.02uf coupling cap between the preamp stages replaced by full tone stack, 22uf cathode bypass cap on both preamp stages, diode rectifier 2.2k NFB resistor. Those stuck out to me. I'll go look again for more differences.

Well if it has a feedback resistor it's certainly not a 5E1 like they claim. Diode rectifiers weren't used in either the 5E1 or 5F1.
No choke either. So it's basically a 5F1 with a SS rectifier and a smaller NFB resistor. I'd probably replace the NFB with a 22K one like on the 5F1. The rectifier wouldn't make a lot of difference. Either would the lack of a choke. Chokes are better but a resistor works fine.
With that NFB resistor it would be cleaner than a 5F1, more "twinlike".
The 5F1 has a 25uF cathode bypass cap so you wouldn't hear the difference there. Overall it's close enough to be close enough. They've managed to shave even a couple more $s off the production costs of a 5F1 with the SS rectifier without compromising the integrity of the circuit. Not a bad effort really, after all these years that's all they can do to cut costs. The old designers did a pretty damn good job huh?

Well mystery solved, thanks.

PS: If anybody thinks a Vyper or a VT sounds as sweet as an old Fender Champ circuit, I weep for you. The Champ 600 is close enough to a 5F1 that you'd be hard pressed to pick the difference and to make it sound undetectable to the ear would require changing a single 5c resistor. So why bother with a simulation when a genuine classic is so cheap?
Fender Champ ftw!!
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Last edited by Cathbard at Aug 31, 2010,
#29
My old 1950's Voice of Music Model 160 (8 watts RMS) Tube Amp.


But they are hard to find!
Last edited by BurstBucker Pro at Aug 31, 2010,
#30
Quote by Cathbard
Well if it has a feedback resistor it's certainly not a 5E1 like they claim. Diode rectifiers weren't used in either the 5E1 or 5F1.
No choke either. So it's basically a 5F1 with a SS rectifier and a smaller NFB resistor. I'd probably replace the NFB with a 22K one like on the 5F1. The rectifier wouldn't make a lot of difference. Either would the lack of a choke. Chokes are better but a resistor works fine.
With that NFB resistor it would be cleaner than a 5F1, more "twinlike".
The 5F1 has a 25uF cathode bypass cap so you wouldn't hear the difference there. Overall it's close enough to be close enough. They've managed to shave even a couple more $s off the production costs of a 5F1 with the SS rectifier without compromising the integrity of the circuit. Not a bad effort really, after all these years that's all they can do to cut costs. The old designers did a pretty damn good job huh?

Well mystery solved, thanks.


Wait. The schem I'm looking at for the 5F1 doesn't have cathode bypass caps on the preamp stages. There's a 25uf cap on the 6V6 though which is what I assume you're referring to since it's switched to 22uf as well. I was talking about the added 22uf caps on V2A and B.

It's a nice sounding amp though. Just not as much 'grind' to the overdrive as the '58 I've played which is explained by the NFB resistor and maybe the gain lost to the tonestack. Maybe someone could try wiring up a pot in place of the NFB resistor like Suhr does on the CAA stuff. This could make a cool project amp. I think used ones go for ~$100. I might have to pick one up for laughs.

This is the 5F1 schem I'm looking at. http://www.kbapps.com/audio/schematics/tubeamps/fender/champ5f1.html
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#31
This is mine...

Can anybody tell me what Amp it is most like?

Edit - Anoter dudes pic, same amp:
Last edited by BurstBucker Pro at Aug 31, 2010,
#32
Quote by BurstBucker Pro
My old 1950's Voice of Music Model 160 (8 watts RMS) Tube Amp.


But they are hard to find!


haha. Too bad Musiciansfriend didn't keep a big stock of those around :P :P :P.

But that's seriously cool.
Call me Wes.
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Weber MASS Attenuator
#33
Quote by Seref
If you want some vintage Marshally crunch but aren't a fan of the Class 5, try the Blackheart Little Giant. It's got TMB tone controls with a volume and no gain knob, switchable from 5 to 3 watts so you can still crank it up for breakup without blowing out your ears.

i have one of these and think it is great. however, dont expect the 3W mode to let you get more breakup at a lower volume. does the opposite actually. its more used for a different sound, but i feel its actually got a bit more headroom since it has one less gain stage.
still a great sounding amp though.

however, i would have to agree that the champ 600 or vox ac4 would be the best bet here. im still trying to find a good deal on a champ for myself.
#34
Quote by mmolteratx
Wait. The schem I'm looking at for the 5F1 doesn't have cathode bypass caps on the preamp stages. There's a 25uf cap on the 6V6 though which is what I assume you're referring to since it's switched to 22uf as well. I was talking about the added 22uf caps on V2A and B.

It's a nice sounding amp though. Just not as much 'grind' to the overdrive as the '58 I've played which is explained by the NFB resistor and maybe the gain lost to the tonestack. Maybe someone could try wiring up a pot in place of the NFB resistor like Suhr does on the CAA stuff. This could make a cool project amp. I think used ones go for ~$100. I might have to pick one up for laughs.

This is the 5F1 schem I'm looking at. http://www.kbapps.com/audio/schematics/tubeamps/fender/champ5f1.html

Oh yeah, missed that cathode bypass cap on V1b. That could make a bit of a difference. Overall it looks like they were trying to clean up the sound a little. Can't imagine why.
I have actually thought about adding a pot for the NFB resistor. Maybe one with a switch so I can kill it totally as well. Think I will do that.

Quote by BurstBucker Pro
This is mine...



Can anybody tell me what Amp is is most like?

Well it doesn't look like anything I'm familiar with but with a 12AY7 and a 12AX7 with a A/B 6V6 I'd suspect it would sound like a midget Bassman. I'm on my way out the door to buy a car and timber for the amp I'm currently building so I don't have time to look too closely at it. I bet it sounds pretty nice though.
Gilchrist custom
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Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
Last edited by Cathbard at Aug 31, 2010,
#36
Quote by BurstBucker Pro
Thanks guys...

She still works and sounds fine!




It's beautiful.
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