Page 1 of 2
#1
Okay I've read the rules and I'm pretty this I'm safe to ask this so hear it goes...

My "band" is doing a cover of Drive by Incubus. For simiplicity's sake, the progression we're using throughout the verse is:

Em, D, Cmaj7, and Asus2

Can somebody explain what mode would work over this and why?
Kinda pathetic, I know...I can build chords, but I am just learning modes and whatnot.
#2
It's all in E minor, so you could use E natural minor.

Over the D and Asus2 you could use E Dorian, which over the Asus2 would imply an A major chord.

(and a Dmaj7 instead of a D7)
Last edited by blue_strat at Aug 30, 2010,
#5
Key = E minor, Scale = E minor

No modes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#6
Quote by AlanHB
Key = E minor, Scale = E minor

No modes.
Exactly. Mike Einziger's solo uses solely the E natural minor scale if I recall correctly.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#7
And so, the MT gang foil yet another plot by the evil Mr. Modes Are Just Like Scales, who grudgingly remarks, "And I would have gotten away with it to if it weren't for you meddling kids."

(No offense to you TS, and sorry for not really contributing).
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#8
Quote by rockingamer2
And so, the MT gang foil yet another plot by the evil Mr. Modes Are Just Like Scales, who grudgingly remarks, "And I would have gotten away with it to if it weren't for you meddling kids."

(No offense to you TS, and sorry for not really contributing).


Thank you, that gave me a good hearty chuckle. I really needed that.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#9
Quote by polishedbullet
Okay I've read the rules and I'm pretty this I'm safe to ask this so hear it goes...

My "band" is doing a cover of Drive by Incubus. For simiplicity's sake, the progression we're using throughout the verse is:

Em, D, Cmaj7, and Asus2

Can somebody explain what mode would work over this and why?
Kinda pathetic, I know...I can build chords, but I am just learning modes and whatnot.



E Aeolian.


Quote by rockingamer2
And so, the MT gang foil yet another plot by the evil Mr. Modes Are Just Like Scales, who grudgingly remarks, "And I would have gotten away with it to if it weren't for you meddling kids."

(No offense to you TS, and sorry for not really contributing).



Quite the opposite actually.
shred is gaudy music
#10
Quote by AlanHB
Key = E minor, Scale = E minor

No modes.

thats so boring...
but yeah he's right, unless u overthink things the way i do (which i kinda need to, i guess i have like OCD or something), just use Eminor, tis all there is to it man.
#11
Quote by GuitarMunky
E Aeolian.


Err, this is a joke for those reading at home

Quote by TMVATDI
thats so boring...
but yeah he's right, unless u overthink things the way i do (which i kinda need to, i guess i have like OCD or something), just use Eminor, tis all there is to it man.


It's only as boring as YOU make it. Your guitar heros use them well enough for you.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#12
Quote by AlanHB
Err, this is a joke for those reading at home





yet, it's legitimately true.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 31, 2010,
#13
E minor is obvious and diatonic, and you can do a lot of things with it.
If you just stayed with what's diatonic I would say E minor, D mixolydian, C lydian, and A dorian.

BUT

If you wanted (just because someone said it was boring, and I don't see the point in just restating what everyone else already said) you could do a reharmonization with the scales you use. There are a number of ways to reharmonize.
With the Em you could try implying a Db mixolydian (Em could also be looked at as the 1st inversion of a C6 chord, and if you imply a II V movement in C maj you could use tritone substitution over the V of C and play the dominant mode a tritone away, which would be Db mixolydian)
Then with the Dmaj it functions as a dominant chord by itself so if you wanted to continue the tritone substitution you could imply Ab mixolydian.
Then when it gets to the C you could play the same as when you played over the Emin, or you could stick with what's diatonic and play a C lydian scale.
The Asus is cool because you can play almost anything over it. I'd trying playing with the A pentatonic scale but leave out the 3rd or imply both the maj and min 3rd, or if you wanted you could go A dorian with it.

There always lots of possibilities. You could play with some chromatics to build tension leading back to the Emin.
Last edited by Four-Sticks at Aug 31, 2010,
#14
Quote by Four-Sticks
If you just stayed with what's diatonic I would say E minor, D mixolydian, C lydian, and A dorian.
Uh... no. As long as the song is still in the key of E minor, the notes of D mixolydian, C lydian, and A dorian are still just the E minor scale.

The first statement in your post was correct. If you left it at that, then it would be good advice.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#15
^He asked what modes he could play. When the chords change you can play those modes.
Your disagreement with me was unnecessary.
#16
Quote by food1010
Uh... no. As long as the song is still in the key of E minor, the notes of D mixolydian, C lydian, and A dorian are still just the E minor scale.

The first statement in your post was correct. If you left it at that, then it would be good advice.


+1

to see those as separate modes is to ignore the context.
shred is gaudy music
#17
Quote by Four-Sticks
^He asked what modes he could play. When the chords change you can play those modes.
Your disagreement with me was unnecessary.


No you can't. He can play those shapes (which also so happen to share the notes of a particular mode), but he will be playing in E minor. You can't just play modes according to chord changes because modes are treated very differently than regular old scales.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#18
Quote by rockingamer2
No you can't. He can play those shapes (which also so happen to share the notes of a particular mode), but he will be playing in E minor. You can't just play modes according to chord changes because modes are treated very differently than regular old scales.


well, the reason why has to do with context, not the difference between modes and scales.

it's in E minor because the notes fall within that key signature and the context determines that E is the tonic.

E aeolian is also a fair analysis since there is no V chord.
shred is gaudy music
#19
All of you people disagreeing with me need to chill out. I am not wrong. I already said it's in E minor, but I just added some more information in there so I'm not guilty of repeating the same answer 10 times over like all the rest of the people in this thread.

I'd be more interested if any of you could actually add to the discussion in a productive way instead of just stumble over one another to say the exact same thing over and over again.
#20
Quote by Four-Sticks
When the chords change you can play those modes.
This is a common misconception. I don't mean to be a dick, but it's just wrong.

Also, he asked "which mode" he could play over the progression, not "which modes correspond to these chords."

The fact of the matter is that even if modes were relevant in this thread, that method is not only incorrect,* but it's also inconvenient. Why worry about coming up with a different mode for each chord when it brings you to the same end as just playing the one scale over the whole thing?

*I'll explain further why that is incorrect, and it doesn't just have to do with modal theory, but with tonal as well:

You know how a key has a specified root note (for example, E minor is rooted on the note E)? That's there for a reason. It's the functional tonal center of the piece, meaning that every note/chord in the key works some way or another to/from/around that note. But isn't G major the same as E minor because they contain the same notes? No. G major is rooted on/revolves around/resolves to G. Because this set of notes resolves to G, it has a major tonality. This same set of notes can also resolve to E if you want, but then the notes each take on a different function, and the scale takes on a minor tonality. So now let's talk about how this works in a chord progression. Think of everything in terms of the major scale here (and diatonic, to make things simple). Say we have a melody that goes up the major scale (1 2 3 4 5 6 7, then coming to rest on the 1 an octave up) played over a progression that goes I iii V viio I, such that the root notes of all the chords are doubled by the melody. Based on your method, one can make the following conclusions (assuming we're in G): The 3 is the root of the iii, as well as the root of B phrygian, thus the melody is "resolved" at the point in time when you play the B note over the Bm chord. The 5 is the root of the V, as well as the root of D mixolydian, thus the melody is "resolved" at the point in time when you play the D note over the D chord. The 7 is the root of the viio, as well as the root of F# locrian, thus the melody is "resolved" at the point in time when you play the F# note over the F#o chord.

But this is wrong. As you should know, a chord progression isn't resolved on the iii, the V, or the viio. It's resolved on the tonic (I or i). In the key of G major, a B note is still a 3, a Bm chord is still a iii, a D note is still a 5, a D chord is still a V, an F# note is still a 7, and an F#o chord is still a viio. None of these are "resolved on" in the key of G major. Play through the progression and sing the melody or something. Sing it through once, then the next few times, stop on each chord and see if it sounds resolved. There may not be a ridiculous amount of tension (except on the viio), but it still won't be resolved.

Saying to play E minor, D mixolydian, C lydian, and A dorian over Em, D, Cmaj7, and Asus2 respectively, is to imply that each chord is tonicized and there is no single key for this song. There is no tension/release in the harmonic motion because you simply have a tonic in one key, then in another key, and so on.

This is all theoretical, obviously. Limited to the key signature of one sharp, it's probably completely impossible to create those modulations solely with melodic techniques, as each chord will naturally take on a tonal function in the key of E minor.

Sorry for going off like that (I don't normally write that much, and I hope you realize it's not a personal attack, and I'm not angry/irritated or anything), but in my opinion this is one of the most important concepts to understand properly in all of tonal/modal theory. I hope it makes some more sense to now.

Quote by Four-Sticks
All of you people disagreeing with me need to chill out. I am not wrong.
But you are. It's not a matter of opinion or perspective, and you need to acknowledge that. Some theory is subjective, but not this.

Quote by Four-Sticks
I already said it's in E minor, but I just added some more information in there so I'm not guilty of repeating the same answer 10 times over like all the rest of the people in this thread.
But the "same answer" was repeated because it's correct. I do appreciate you offering more information, I was just trying to correct it.

Quote by Four-Sticks
I'd be more interested if any of you could actually add to the discussion in a productive way instead of just stumble over one another to say the exact same thing over and over again.
I would hope my explanation was at least moderately productive. It may be a bit off topic, but I'm trying to correct inconsistencies and help people understand this concept better.

I wish this hadn't have gotten blown out of proportion, but like I said, I think it's important.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Aug 31, 2010,
#22
Quote by polishedbullet
So....... E minor?


yup
"Swords, nature's hell sticks."- Trip Fisk
#23
Quote by polishedbullet
So....... E minor?

This is the same as E aeolian correct?


yes, its the same scale as E natural minor.
shred is gaudy music
#24
Quote by AlanHB
Key = E minor, Scale = E minor

No modes.


There you go.

The Em D C is a classic Im-bVII-bVI in E....the same move as All Along the Watchtower, Stairway to Heaven, Turn to Stone (I think that's the Walsh one).
#25
I don't think it's E aeolian, because there are 4 chords here, none of which (with the exception of the root) emphasise the sound of E aeolian.

I recently asked whether it is in fact, possible to create an aeolian song, due to the instability and willingness of such a progession to become a minor progression instead. It turned out that a progression in aoelian could be a i-V vamp, and nothing more.

I am yet to see another chord progression that could be considered aeolian. And that includes this one. It's a minor progression as far as I'm concerned.

As for all those saying it's 4 or 5 different modes. That's just simply wrong. Modes don't change with the chords. It intrigues me why you wouldn't say that the key/scale was just E aeolian - at least you'd be closer to the real answer.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#26
^ You mean i-v. Not worth the effort to say they're different here in my opinion. We could just be confusing him.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#27
Quote by Eastwinn
^ You mean i-v. Not worth the effort to say they're different here in my opinion. We could just be confusing him.


I'm sure we're beyond that point already
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#28
Quote by AlanHB
I don't think it's E aeolian, because there are 4 chords here, none of which (with the exception of the root) emphasise the sound of E aeolian.


What IS the sound of E Aeolian? (as opposed to the sound of natural minor)

Quote by AlanHB

I recently asked whether it is in fact, possible to create an aeolian song, due to the instability and willingness of such a progession to become a minor progression instead. It turned out that a progression in aoelian could be a i-V vamp, and nothing more.


I disagree, a i - V vamp would NOT be aeolian. it would be minor.

Quote by AlanHB

I am yet to see another chord progression that could be considered aeolian. And that includes this one. It's a minor progression as far as I'm concerned.


a typical minor progression, as in from the Major/minor tonal system, would include the V.
shred is gaudy music
#29
Quote by GuitarMunky
What IS the sound of E Aeolian? (as opposed to the sound of natural minor)


I disagree, a i - V vamp would NOT be aeolian. it would be minor.



Sorry, I was corrected above. An i - v vamp.

What's the sound of aeolian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YleJKvhOmo8
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#30
Quote by AlanHB
Sorry, I was corrected above. An i - v vamp.

What's the sound of aeolian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YleJKvhOmo8


I mean describe it. You said only one chord contained the characteristic sound. Please explain.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Aug 31, 2010,
#31
At this point, I think of Aeolian as an outdated term because I've yet to get a real grip on the difference between them.

Why call it Aeolian if you could just call it minor and be done with it? That said, why make a big fuss out of it when someone calls in Aeolian?
i don't know why i feel so dry
#32
Quote by AlanHB
Err, this is a joke for those reading at home


It's only as boring as YOU make it. Your guitar heros use them well enough for you.

PIANO HERO! i compose everything on piano first haha i dont even like the guitar. but yeah i have no clue whether or not my favorite composers use modes.
#33
Quote by GuitarMunky
I mean describe it. You said only one chord contained the characteristic sound. Please explain.


Nah, I'll just leave it to someone who can explain it better. Until a couple of weeks ago I highly doubted that songs existed in aeolian mode.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#34
Quote by AlanHB

What's the sound of aeolian? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YleJKvhOmo8



This amuses me

You could play the exact same thing on an electric piano with less staccato and call it the 'natural minor'

It just sounds "Aeolian" because it sounds like a freakin' renaissance fair
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#35
Quote by Tominator_1991

It just sounds "Aeolian" because it sounds like a freakin' renaissance fair


Really? I think pirate music
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#36
Quote by food1010
This is a common misconception. I don't mean to be a dick, but it's just wrong.

^ to be honest I don't know that it is wrong.

It is mostly here on this forum that it seems to be so direly frowned upon to suggest you can play different modes over individual chords. In many other places it seems to be an acceptable approach. Though I don't practice this myself I am open to the idea that it can work for others.
Si
#37
Quote by 20Tigers
^ to be honest I don't know that it is wrong.

It is mostly here on this forum that it seems to be so direly frowned upon to suggest you can play different modes over individual chords. In many other places it seems to be an acceptable approach. Though I don't practice this myself I am open to the idea that it can work for others.



It's all just opposing schools of music

The real hardcore conservatorium of music snobs preach that modes can only be used in modal music while the rest of us say it can be used anywhere - frankly its all ridiculous, while there is a theory behind music, the whole thing is entirely subjective.
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#39
Quote by 20Tigers
^ to be honest I don't know that it is wrong.

It is mostly here on this forum that it seems to be so direly frowned upon to suggest you can play different modes over individual chords. In many other places it seems to be an acceptable approach. Though I don't practice this myself I am open to the idea that it can work for others.
Disregarding how accepted it is, it just makes absolutely no sense to me. It may work for some people, and that would be cool, but I think you deceive yourself by thinking that way. I understand the appeal, but I also think you're over complicating things for yourself, and you lose a bit of your sense of tonality on the way.

It's like this (bear with me for a minute): Say you were to walk in a straight line from point A to point C and on the way (when you hit point B) you decide to turn to your left and continue to walk in the same direction. Unless you're in a marching band or something, side-stepping like that just doesn't make sense, because it doesn't aid you walking in a straight line in any way. In fact, it forces you to take your eyes off of your destination, thus making you lose your sense of direction a bit.

Now, looking sideways like this (out of your peripherals, let's say) can be beneficial, as long as you retain your sight of the destination.

In this analogy, the segment from point A to point B is your scale over the tonic chord. The segment from point B to point C is your scale over another chord. Point C, where you want to keep sight of the whole time, represents the tonic, and your sense of direction represents your sense of tonality.

You have to remember that the harmony is not the only part that has something to do with tonality. The melody is important as well. Not that you can really change the tonality with the melody if the harmony already has a strong tonality, but that doesn't mean you should ignore the tonality. In fact, that gives you more reason to pay attention to the tonality (so that the melody and harmony agree on it and complement each other).

I hope that was coherent.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#40
Just use E minor, this song is not modal.
Tick tock and waiting for the meteor
This clock is opening another door
Page 1 of 2