#1
Hey guys, I've always heard how jazz is so complex and technical, and I wanna get in on this. What are some groups or artists that play very technical jazz? I'm talking time signature changes, interesting chords, etc. Help me? Thanks.
Slappa tha bass
#3
most jazz is in 3/4 or 4/4 so you won't find much interesting in the way of time signatures. almost all jazz has interesting chords (cool cycles, tons of 7ths and extensions, non-functional harmony, tritone subs etc) but jazz (and music on the whole) is not really about being interesting (moreover, if you think that way about the music you listen to and play it will probably be hard for you to get past the level of technique obsession and phoning in musically), its about making music.
that being said, some of my favorite jazz is brian blade, christian scott, charlie parker, john coltrane, miles davis, wayne shorter, bill evans, pat metheny, george garzone, chris potter and clifford brown (for starters at least).
#4
^He's got it. But as for technical jazz that sounds good, Mingus is where its at. “Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple.”
That's attributed to Mingus where I read it. It's an excellent point regardless. Some of Mingus's songs (Remember Rockefeller at Attica, Free Cell Block F) have complicated melodies and changes, but are still catchy. Too often do you see talented musicians write music that seems to be centered around showing off, rather than musicality.

Quote by Josephhuman
John McGlaughlin. I think thats how it's spelled...

McLaughlin

Mahavishnu has some interesting time signatures.
#5
jazz isn't as complex as everyone makes it out to be. as one of my instructors says, "the more decades that go by, the more i'm convinced i only really know one tune."

but if you want some ****ed up time signatures you have to look for new jazz. it's kind of the final frontier in jazz. lots of dudes in NY are hip to the odd time stuff. it's not limited to new guys though. wynton's about as purist as it gets, but he does some really neat stuff with time, especially in his version of "autumn leaves".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Xi-emWNePw

also, check these guys out. they're local and my bass teacher alternates gigs with another dude in town (as well as THE john goldsby). they do some touring in germany and have some albums with goldbsy. they're pretty intense into that kind of stuff:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGGPq5hmPpo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DasJ_s387zo
#DTWD
#8
Most jazz players employ "complex" chords, I assume your a guitarist, so I'd suggest:

Joe Pass
Jim Hall (the master of comping)
Kenny Burrell
Pat Martino
Pat Metheny
John McLaughlin
Al Di Meola

As far as time signature changes, as a lot of jazz isn't written, improvised music and all that shizz, a lot of the "time signature changes" are actually sometimes real or implied polyrhythms by any member in the band, usually the drummer, but can be implied by anyone

Take a listen to Joe Morrello, in the Dave Brubek quartet, and a lot of the older great drummers, Philly Joe Jones, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones, Max Roach, Billy Cobham, and definatley Kenny Clarke.

As far as voicings, for a guitarist, Jim Hall, the guys a master! Oh, and Joe Diorio! The guy had a great polytonal arrangement of Stella By Starlight somewhere around the web.

For the interesting chords, just go to Bebop, a lot of the songs used were contrafacts, but beboppers often substituted and almost completley did away with any ties to the origina progression.

Primusfan: Wynton? A purist? You've gotta be kidding me
Speaking of Wynton's oppinions, if you can pick up the book Is Jazz Dead? Or Has It Moved To A New Adress, I would highly recommend it, it tackled a lot of Wynton's very specific oppinions on what jazz is.
Last edited by jesse music at Sep 2, 2010,
#9
Quote by jesse music
Primusfan: Wynton? A purist? You've gotta be kidding me


erm. no. in fact, i can't think of anyone who's as much a traditionalist as wynton. i mean, i'm with him. i think electric instruments sound retarded in jazz (especially guitar. what a bland, dynamic-less timbre). but as far as reharmonization, meter, form, etc. i'm all about coming up with new stuff to push the limits.

people rag too much on marsalis. ok, so he basically makes a career out of playing standards and playing in a 30s-50s style of jazz. so? jazz is a twofold genre. as america's only original art form, we have the obligation to preserve it but also allow it to flourish. people need to push it to new boundaries, but we have to preserve the music of the days of yore. speaking of, the Preservation Hall Jazz Band will be in indianapolis in two weeks. very excite.
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Sep 3, 2010,
#10
Quote by primusfan
people rag too much on marsalis. ok, so he basically makes a career out of playing standards and playing in a 30s-50s style of jazz. so?


The guy basically denied fusion ever happened, dissed Miles in his face (and still tried to play with him), and tries to say what is "Jazz" and what isn't. I think he is a wonderful player, but he is pompous and arrogant. There's a reason the others in the Marsalis family don't like him.
#11
yeah, the miles thing is lame. and it's awesome that miles just told him GTFO my stage.

but i mean i have to agree that about 95% of fusion is better left forgotten.

and besides, miles isn't really much of a charming guy either. quite the opposite, in fact. actually, i'd rather hang out with wynton than miles. especially in his later days. ugh. despite all the accounts of miles being an abusive, low-life, misogynistic junkie ... i think what made him forever an asshole in my book is the fact that in his autobiography (which is full of narcissistic fabrications), he says something to the effect of "coltrane was a good player; he did his best stuff with me though."

#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Sep 3, 2010,
#12
Quote by primusfan
yeah, the miles thing is lame. and it's awesome that miles just told him GTFO my stage.

but i mean i have to agree that about 95% of fusion is better left forgotten.

and besides, miles isn't really much of a charming guy either. quite the opposite, in fact. actually, i'd rather hang out with wynton than miles. especially in his later days. ugh. despite all the accounts of miles being an abusive, low-life, misogynistic junkie ... i think what made him forever an asshole in my book is the fact that in his autobiography (which is full of narcissistic fabrications), he says something to the effect of "coltrane was a good player; he did his best stuff with me though."



Yeah, I'd agree.
#14
Joe Pass! The guy is a beast.
Gotta finish my work, then play some grooves, so I can turn my room into a house of blues...
#15
I remember Wynton apparently accused Miles of treason because he played Cindy Lauper's Tme After Time, and Im not the greatest fan of that song, but I think Miles was a great man for bringing other influences into jazz, for instance Tutu, is one of my favorite all time albums.

I don't really agree with your oppinins about fusion, I love the stuff!

I've got no problems with Wyton's music, I love his playing, especially his Blood On The Fields cd.

"i think electric instruments sound retarded in jazz (especially guitar. what a bland, dynamic-less timbre)." watch yourself boy, your on a guitar forum!

Wynton (in my oppinion) is a great musician and trumpeter, I just reject some of his specific opinions on what jazz is and what it isn't (who's to say?) and on what people are allowed to do, and what they are not.
#16
Check out some Robert Glasper. If you're open to hip hop influences, this guy is one of the most original and interesting players out there in my opinion.
12 fret fury
#17
yeah, see i'm not with wynton on that. i think lauper is strange, but still ... look at the jazz standards. most of them are really gay-ass showtunes. "someday my prince will come" ... goddamn disney movie.

see i think we continue to add new tunes to the standards repertoire. why should tom waits, leonard cohen and dozier-holland-dozier not belong in the same category with irving berlin, johnny mercer and rogers-hammerstein? just because they were born too late? BS. american music is american music (forget the fact that cohen is canadian momentarily). the repertoire SHOULD continue to grow. and is time after time somehow inspired miles, more power to him.

but i hate fusion so much i would still consider myself largely in agreement with marsalis.
#DTWD
#18
Well, I'll just have to agree to disagree with you on the fusion issue, but all that being said, Wynton is an awesome musician.

Changing the subject slightly, obviously Wynton plays a lot of standards, but has he composed many standards? I've heard Blood On The Fields (which he composed) but I've never come across any standards written by Wynton
#19
Pat Metheny has some interesting stuff...and if you want right on the edge of weird, there's a Don
Cherry album called Complete Communion you should check out. It's technically free jazz, but it's fairly tame and they do some cool stuff.
Quote by corduroyEW
Cheap amps are "that bad". They suck up your tone like cocaine at Kate Moss' party.


I am Michael!
#20
Chris Potter's underground group has an amazing guitar player, Adam rogers, and on earlier stuff wayne krantz, and they mess around with the beats and time sig's like ****, you should check them out(chris is a fkn god of the sax)

although i dont like him at all, Kurt Rosenwinkler is pretty much insane when it comes to playing out and modern stuff, check him out to.
Listens to Jazz

Quote by Local666Union
each time I piss in the dark I'm afraid that some wierd plant is going to eat my dick



#21
Quote by tubab0y
Pat Metheny has some interesting stuff...and if you want right on the edge of weird, there's a Don
Cherry album called Complete Communion you should check out. It's technically free jazz, but it's fairly tame and they do some cool stuff.


I think Metheny's Full Circle album has some stuff in 22/8.