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#1
Hey guys,

I am really confused... I am playing guitar for like 3 years now.. and yesterday I saw a video of kerry king playing angel of death.. i said wow I cant play that fast.. then i watched couple of malmsteen vids and couple john petrucci.. i said damn.. well you could guess why..

anyway, then i decided to search on web, from UG lessons i found out that economy playing is the key.. and I said BS... So is it really BS or does it really the key? Kerry king, Malmsteen and Petrucci do they use economy picking? I have no idea..

OR..

It is there another way of mastering such as this "lightning fast" playing as some mind-sucking commercial guitar tutorials on web says? Up until now I thought that if I play regularly, at some point i will achieve that speed.. Dont consider me slow.. I can play master of puppets (as an example everybody considers.) fluently..

EDIT: Also can someone point me a place/lesson/idea/advise/something that can help me to improve my alternate picking speed/accuracy since it doesnt come naturally..

thanks for all the help UG..

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Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
Last edited by Rangor6363 at Sep 7, 2010,
#3
John Petrucci doesn't use economy picking, he uses strictly alternate picking, and Malmsteen, like me and many other guitarists, uses a mixture of economy and alternate picking. I've found that for me, the key to learning to play really fast was pushing myself. A lot of people say start slow and the speed will come naturally, I don't think that is true. For me, I got a lot faster when I started pushing myself to play faster. It didn't always sound perfect, and it was sloppy and sometimes uncomfortable in the beginning, but the accuracy and familiarity came eventually.
Last edited by bnull24 at Sep 7, 2010,
#4
No, economy picking is not the key. The key is accuracy and relaxed movement.

Petrucci and Gilbert strictly use alternate picking and they play at astonishing speeds. I personally prefer alternate picking since you kinda lose the pulse when playing with economy.
#5
Also can someone point me a place/lesson/idea/advise/something that can help me to improve my alternate picking speed/accuracy since it doesnt come naturally..

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#6
Quote by bnull24
John Petrucci doesn't use economy picking, he uses strictly alternate picking, and Malmsteen, like me and many other guitarists, uses a mixture of economy and alternate picking. I've found that for me, the key to learning to play really fast was pushing myself. A lot of people say start slow and the speed will come naturally, I don't think that is true. For me, I got a lot faster when I started pushing myself to play faster. It didn't always sound perfect, and it was sloppy and sometimes uncomfortable in the beginning, but the accuracy and familiarity came eventually.


Don't follow this, there's a reason why they say pace yourself. Because building that speed slowly, also helps build the accuracy.

Also, as said before, speed isn't everything.
I'm a musician/composer before I'm a guitar player.

foREVer


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#7
Its like lifting weights..you will never get bigger or stronger unless you up the weight you lift.

To get faster you have to PUSH your limits a little bit at a time. Also control your movements. make them small and precise and clean.

And if you think master of puppets is fast then you mite wanna get busy pushin...
Last edited by Axim Bassist at Sep 7, 2010,
#8
Quote by Count Orlok
Don't follow this, there's a reason why they say pace yourself. Because building that speed slowly, also helps build the accuracy.

Also, as said before, speed isn't everything.


+1

Making the movements flow helps.

I have a natural way of playing things fast though, so i start fast and if i'm not advancing i slow down and bring it up again. Fluidity is what makes you fast.

Unlike kerry king, who just has that balls out shred style. I prefer flow though.
#9
Quote by Axim Bassist
Its like lifting weights..you will never get bigger or stronger unless you up the weight you lift.

To get faster you have to PUSH your limits a little bit at a time. Also control your movements. make them small and precise and clean.

And if you think master of puppets is fast then you mite wanna get busy pushin...

What I mean to say exactly. I don't mean start picking as fast as you can and hope that it sounds good. I mean that you have to push yourself to play faster, even if that means playing a couple exercises/licks that sound slightly sloppy when you first start on them. You can't just play slow and ultra-accurate all the time when you practice, and then expect that to make you faster. Push yourself (just not too far).

See how fast you can play now, play at that speed for a while. In a week or 2, step it up a hair or two, and clean up your technique until it is fluid. Then repeat this in another few weeks, etc.
#10
Dont forget about your fret hand... you know the hand that does the majority of the work?

Sometimes... people are in such a rush to pick faster they don't even notice that their fret hand is the drag in progress. Sometimes.

How's your legato technique? Super strong and accurate I hope? Good... that will make it a lot easier to train up your picking techniques.
#11
Quote by cringer
Dont forget about your fret hand... you know the hand that does the majority of the work?

Sometimes... people are in such a rush to pick faster they don't even notice that their fret hand is the drag in progress. Sometimes.

How's your legato technique? Super strong and accurate I hope? Good... that will make it a lot easier to train up your picking techniques.



I'm pretty sure the problem is with the right hand i can legato lot "faster" than alternate pick

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#12
Quote by Rangor6363
I'm pretty sure the problem is with the right hand i can legato lot "faster" than alternate pick

Great. You're in a fine position to make strides with your alt picking now.
(there are some people who don't see the big picture, and then wonder why picking seems so difficult... which is why I bring it up)
You're obviously not one of em.
#13
Quote by Rangor6363
I'm pretty sure the problem is with the right hand i can legato lot "faster" than alternate pick

It's not a problem with either hand, that's a common misconception.

The problem is with using both hands together, it's not a case of one hand "catching up" with the other one, you need to focus on using both hands at the same time getting them working together accurately and in sync. That means slowing everything to the speed at which you're able to keep everything in time, accurate and clean and look to build from there.
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#14
TS, you confused economy playing with economy picking.

Economy playing is playing with the minimum amount of effort required. Basically, if you play with the best economy style you can, you'll be very efficient with your energy, and you'll be able to play longer, faster, and more accurate (ALL with LOTS of practice, of course).

Economy picking is the DDU style picking.

If you watch Malmsteen play, you'll notice he is very very relaxed and his movements seem very fluid and normal (This is why it looks 'easy' when they do it). Malmsteen plays with a lot of 'economy', just spending energy where it needs to be spent, and no where else, really. It's a very simple concept, but incredibly hard to incorporate successfully into everyday playing.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#15
Quote by steven seagull
It's not a problem with either hand, that's a common misconception.

The problem is with using both hands together, it's not a case of one hand "catching up" with the other one, you need to focus on using both hands at the same time getting them working together accurately and in sync. That means slowing everything to the speed at which you're able to keep everything in time, accurate and clean and look to build from there.


you are correct but my main concern is (for now thou) to be able play song like six my all that remains.. if you are unfamiliar, they use (generally) a single note on left hand constantly pick same note really fast making a machine gun sound fluently.. any idea on how to do this?

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#17
Quote by Baby Joel

Economy picking is the DDU style picking.


No it isn't.
#18
IMHO relaxed fingers with a concentrated mind produces best results. Speed is not everything may be correct, but we do need it. Excessive pressure can sometimes obstruct speed as you are needing more energy to hold notes and cannot concentrate on speed. So see where your speed breaker lies and remove that ...
I dont think any particular style has an advantage cause its more of familiarity which helps.
#19
Quote by .Wretch.
No it isn't.

It basically is. Just a two-string sweep with an alternate stroke.
Like so:


e|-------------
B|-------------
G|-------------
D|-------------
A|-----2-3-----
E|---2---------

If economy picked, that would be played with two downstrokes for the first two notes, than an upstroke. Especially if that phrase was repeated.
will someone carry me across ten thousand miles under the silence
#21
Quote by Rangor6363
you are correct but my main concern is (for now thou) to be able play song like six my all that remains.. if you are unfamiliar, they use (generally) a single note on left hand constantly pick same note really fast making a machine gun sound fluently.. any idea on how to do this?


Actually you'll find that both of the guitarists from ATR are pretty damn skilled, you'll need to sit down and really work on your chops to be able to play their songs well and consistently.

Get a metronome and get practicing.
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#22
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr
Actually you'll find that both of the guitarists from ATR are pretty damn skilled, you'll need to sit down and really work on your chops to be able to play their songs well and consistently.

Get a metronome and get practicing.


practicing what?

at the moment i am playing modes in six-lets (not sure if this is the correct way, 6 notes per beat) and I can play it at 73 BPM.. max.. and i am trying to improve my speed by constantly playing the same thing but my speed doesnt improve after a while my right hand gets tense and it doesnt help.. I am playing all the modes in order.. any help?

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#23
Quote by Rangor6363
practicing what?

at the moment i am playing modes in six-lets (not sure if this is the correct way, 6 notes per beat) and I can play it at 73 BPM.. max.. and i am trying to improve my speed by constantly playing the same thing but my speed doesnt improve after a while my right hand gets tense and it doesnt help.. I am playing all the modes in order.. any help?


1 - Stop playing the same thing all the time, it won't help at all. Especially if you're just sitting at that speed where you can do it and trying to push yourself faster; you'll just keep practicing the same mistakes and poor technique.

2 - I doubt very much that you're doing anything like playing modes, what you're probably doing is playing the same scale in different places on the fretboard; modes need a backing to actually have any relevance and realistically speaking you need to be working over a backing that has been specifically composed as modal.

3 - To get faster you need to improve your technique and you can't improve your technique by trying to play faster. Ignore what your maximum speed is and work on the things that make up your ability to play quickly: economy of motion, relaxation and co-ordination.


Remember this: speed is a result of good technique, you can't control it you can only control the things that make it.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
#24
^ Sadly Mr Zaphod is correct.

To play fast you pretty much need to be completely relaxed. There are people that bend this rule but they are very few and far between. On the most part, being relaxed at whatever tempo you're at and playing things fluidly is the only way to play faster. Think about it - if you're concentrating on improving speed your technique is probably going to change. If you are completely relaxed enough at a speed to play something almost unconsciously perfectly, you're probably going to be able to up that speed a couple of notches without a problem. If it's an effort to play at a speed but you can just about manage it, trying to play even faster will most probably make you tense up even more and make more mistakes. Being absolutely relaxed, comfortable, in control and almost playing without thought are the only ways to improve speed, in my opinion.

Go faster than you can handle now and again, it gets you experiencing what it feels like to play fast - but don't practice like this because all you will do is train your body to play incorrectly.
#25
Quote by Zaphod_Beeblebr


3 - To get faster you need to improve your technique and you can't improve your technique by trying to play faster. Ignore what your maximum speed is and work on the things that make up your ability to play quickly: economy of motion, relaxation and co-ordination.


Thanks for all the help but there is still one thing and it may seem retarded but I really know know how..

How do you practice: economy of motion, relaxation and co-ordination ??

Can you give me an example because I really don't know how to practice these..

Thanks!

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#26
Quote by Baby Joel
It basically is. Just a two-string sweep with an alternate stroke.
Like so:


e|-------------
B|-------------
G|-------------
D|-------------
A|-----2-3-----
E|---2---------

If economy picked, that would be played with two downstrokes for the first two notes, than an upstroke. Especially if that phrase was repeated.

See, I would totally start that on an upstroke. Just me though.

And of course it depends on what is before it also.

You gotta mix the two, to get the most sounds possible. Just one or the other, exclusively, is the goofiest thing ever. The people you mentioned, they might specialize their playing, but any guitarist worth his salt is going to want both down pretty well.
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#27
^ I've never seen Paul Gilbert eco pick.

It's only good for the sound it produces in my opinion, sorta that half-legatoey feel.

But rathr than eco pick you can just mix legato and alternatepicking.
#28
Quote by GilbertsPinky
^ I've never seen Paul Gilbert eco pick.

It's only good for the sound it produces in my opinion, sorta that half-legatoey feel.

But rathr than eco pick you can just mix legato and alternatepicking.

That doesn't mean that he doesn't do it though. All you see is the things Paul Gilbert kicks ass at. Why would he post a video of decent economy picking when his string skipping is so freaking outstanding.

But you gotta find out what you like by exploring different techniques. Branch out, and then isolate whatever you find to be what you like most. You can't master them all.
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#29
Quote by DeathByDestroyr
That doesn't mean that he doesn't do it though. All you see is the things Paul Gilbert kicks ass at. Why would he post a video of decent economy picking when his string skipping is so freaking outstanding.

But you gotta find out what you like by exploring different techniques. Branch out, and then isolate whatever you find to be what you like most. You can't master them all.

What has economy picking got to do with string skipping? Two completely unrelated techniques.

And he probably can eco pick, but he doesn't use it. I can't think of one part of any of his songs where he uses strict eco picking. I've seen him do it where he will use it because it makes a transition easier, but i've never heard an eco pick run in any of his tunes.
#30
okey guys can we return to the actually question?
Quote by Rangor6363
How do you practice: economy of motion, relaxation and co-ordination ??

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#31
Economy picking sounds good with triplets, though some people prefer to alt pick as they say it doesn't interrupt the flow. Personally, I think it is a good idea to practice both. I can eco pick ascending pretty good, but i prefer to alt pick coming back up as i'm not too great at up strokes.

Some eco picking e.g

e|---------------------------------------------5-6-7
B|------------------------------------5-6-7-------
G|---------------------------5-6-7---------------
D|------------------5-6-7------------------------
A|----------5-6-7-------------------------------
E|5-6-7--------------------------------------

Play in a down, up, down, down, up, down, down, up pattern

e| 5-6-7-----------------------------------------------
B|--------5-6-7----------------------------------------
G|------------------5-6-7---------------------------------
D|-----------------------------5-6-7------------------------
A|----------------------------------------5-6-7----------------
E|----------------------------------------------------5-6-7-------
Play in a up, down, up, up, down, up up, down, up up motion
Last edited by Calibos at Sep 10, 2010,
#32
Quote by Calibos
i prefer to alt pick coming back up as i'm not too great at up strokes

The longer you do it, the less great you will be at going up.

It's not the lack of the two steps forward that hinders progress the most, its the one step back.
"If you're looking for me,
you better check under the sea,
because that's where you'll find me..."
#33
Oh don't get me wrong, I do practice my up strokes (not as much as I should do), i'm just still wayyyyyy behind my down strokes in terms of speed
#34
I play the way my teacher thought me. He said it's alternate picking, and quite frankly at first I thought it was bullshit and he didn't know what he was talkin about. But now when I quit my lessons (due to lack of money) was trying to learn the trooper solo and without even realizing it I played the way my teacher thought me and it was super comfy. Anyway I guess this is "strict" alternate picking?


---15--19p15--17p15
-17-------------------------
-D-U-----D------D


And repeat.

This is all in 16ths and at first when my teacher thought me to pick like this I thought what a load a bullshit, now it's really amazing at how comfy this is. Before that I would of picked it like DUDU.
#35
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought the whole logic behind alt picking was that you never stopped alternating between down and up?
#36
Quote by Calibos
Correct me if i'm wrong, but I thought the whole logic behind alt picking was that you never stopped alternating between down and up?


That was what I thought at first, but the way I showed the picking, you count the pull offs as a separate stroke, so basically it is down up down up only that during the pulls I'm not playing. I hope you get what I mean. Anyway I'm not saying that's how you should do it, it's just how my teacher thought me and its super comfy then just doing every note DUDU. But I use this only for fast licks, that is in 16ths or 6thlets.

Also I don't know what this picking is called like, alternate picking, strict alt or super-time-warp picking, so can someone clarify me on that?
Last edited by Shinami at Sep 10, 2010,
#37
Quote by Rangor6363
Thanks for all the help but there is still one thing and it may seem retarded but I really know know how..

How do you practice: economy of motion, relaxation and co-ordination ??

Can you give me an example because I really don't know how to practice these..

Thanks!


I swim every day for 40-50 minutes. That makes me very relaxed, I am not kidding. Overall fitness really helps in physical activity like playing guitar.

I'd say get a very good teacher (not many of these around unfortunately, the best is to try and get someone from London College of Music or other reputable insitution, even one or two lessons will help tremendously, I am talking from my own experience) it's really hard to explain things like that without seeing how you play. I could tell you play slow, but playing slow is no good if you are tense, fingers flying all around, you grip a neck like it would be a baseball bat etc..

The alternative is to very carefully study videos of someone at master level, like Paul Gilbert or Guthrie Govan and just copy what they do very carefully. You might want to do things in different way, but copying masters will work for sure. Overanalyze - it's fun .

Other than that, just have fun - do not take guitar playing seriously like it would be a sport (which seems to me is a tendency on these boards), join a band, compose your own music even if it's 3 chords, it will all make you more confident. You may even make a career out of it

Again, you really don't have to force yourself, except if you want to be a session musican .
Last edited by mdeeRocks at Sep 10, 2010,
#38
Quote by mdeeRocks


Other than that, just have fun - do not take guitar playing seriously like it would be a sport (which seems to me is a tendency on these boards), join a band, compose your own music even if it's 3 chords, it will all make you more confident. You may even make a career out of it

Again, you really don't have to procastrinate yourself, except if you want to be a session musican .


Thanks dude, but my guitar teacher is fine, it is just that he has lot to do so it is hard find time to take lessons from him, he is a youtube vid of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_aqWSWZM0I&feature=related

he is good!

anyway, i want to play neoclassical style which requires me to play faster it is why i want to be fast I already have a band we play strictly Iron Maiden, and it is easy! I want to play dream theater, malmsteen, paganini stuff.. and I need speed for those..

Gear
Schecter Jeff Loomis NT (7 string bad-ass)
Esp Ltd Deluxe MH-1000 FR
ENGL Screamer 50
Quote by Rangor6363
If you wanna learn how to play something, first you gotta listen it!

Last.fm
#39
Quote by Rangor6363
Thanks dude, but my guitar teacher is fine, it is just that he has lot to do so it is hard find time to take lessons from him, he is a youtube vid of him: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_aqWSWZM0I&feature=related

he is good!

anyway, i want to play neoclassical style which requires me to play faster it is why i want to be fast I already have a band we play strictly Iron Maiden, and it is easy! I want to play dream theater, malmsteen, paganini stuff.. and I need speed for those..


Your teacher should help you, he is very good at what he is doing.
If you play in a band and you guys are playing Iron Maiden, then your are already at very good track (especially if it's easy for you), I bet you will play all stuff you want soon, just keep practicing it - maybe set yourself a goal to play one song or solo, or better part of it at half speed first and practice that for good couple of weeks, paying attention to what your fingers and hands are doing?

p.s. This http://www.troygrady.com/page.php?id=11 site has a very good transcription of "Now your ships are burned" broken into small pieces, with picking explained. I think it's a good song to practice what you want.
#40
Quote by Rangor6363
okey guys can we return to the actually question?


Watch these two lessons:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvhZ80OsuTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNhhyrnINIU

Quote by GilbertsPinky
^ I've never seen Paul Gilbert eco pick.


I have, in an instructional video somewhere (I think it might be on his Silence Followed By a Deafening Roar DVD) in one of the classical pieces he does. It's true he's not famous for it and he doesn't like doing it but if the situation requires he's capable.
R.I.P. My Signature. Lost to us in the great Signature Massacre of 2014.

Quote by Master Foo
“A man who mistakes secrets for knowledge is like a man who, seeking light, hugs a candle so closely that he smothers it and burns his hand.”


Album.
Legion.
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