#1
hi, i'm a little confused here. I decided that i'm going to save some money, and then buy a ENGL Blackmore Tube Head with a cab. It sounds really good and I had this thread about it and everyone was like 'yeah that head rocks. if you have the money, go for it'.

BUT, i was checking the sticky 'incorporating info'. and when i got to the 'watt/loudness' sections, it stated this:

As a rule we have for SS:

10-30W: practice on your own.
30-50W: practice with a band or recording.
50 to 100W (or more): Gigs (as much wattage as you ever need)

And for valves:

<20W: practice on your own
20-30W Band practice/Recording
30-50W Gigging.
>50W Hearing damage.

Note there are overlaps because you can use any given wattage of amp at different volumes and for different purposes (!).

Don?t get an amp just for a tremendous wattage. Get one that you like the sound of and suits your needs. And when considering gigs, remember that the largest venues always have a house PA, which you can mike a small amp up through.


first things first, i'm not getting the blackmore for the wattage, but because of the tone.
second: 50W> hearing damage. here is my confusion: the blackmroe is 100 WATTS. WTF? i mean, if more than 50w is hearing damage, you could litterlaly kill someone with 100 watts.

so i thought, ok, maybe because the blackmore is like 1200 euros (new, not used), i maybe check the lower price range. THEN I SEE THIS:

BUGERA 6260 120 WATTS 277 EUROS (NEW, NOT USED)!?!?!?!?!

WTF. and my biggest confusion is that i see sigs of people, and see people talking about it in forums, about how there mesa/bugera/orange/engl sounds great? and when i go to these threads like rate my gear, i see people posting pics of there stuff at home, and i see like 3 tube heads with some 212 and 412 cabs. i mean WTF?

so, that list of what wattage you need for what youre going to do (the list from the 'incorporating info' thread), is that when you put the volume at 10, or something like that? because, if it isnt, i really dont understand why 99 out of 100 tube heads are more than 50W.

please, someone, explain

And: can i use the ENGL Blackmore with a 212 cab. (and maybe a attenuator) at home?
#2
You turn then below 10?
Most people don't crank them above 3/4 for some/band situations
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#3
Yes, you can kill small animals and stepmothers with 100 watt full stack of valves. Definitely you can break glass, I've tried.

Big wattage amps have more headroom, sometimes it's desired - you get better cleans and sound is more "open" (hard to describe it really). Also, you rarely turn master volume amps to 10.. they tend to sound best around 3-4 (which is ****ing loud if we talk about 50+ watt head). Non master volume... well, ear bleeding, should come with big red warning .

I use THD Hotplate attenuator with some of my amps, even when recording it helps. It's really nice piece of kit, basically it makes your amp quieter, changes tone a bit, but not much.

But, for my practice at home, I just have blackstar HT5 which is 5 watt amp and small Cornford combo which is also 5 watt. It's still too much, but bearable when you put volume on 1 to 2 (which is a waste on Carrera).
Last edited by mdeeRocks at Sep 11, 2010,
#4
It means you CAN get hearing damage, and that's from using the amp balls to the wall cranked in a small room.

You actually can get hearing damage from much smaller tube amps as well the closer you are to the speaker.

The thing with the Blackmore and most high gain heads (ENGL, Orange, Mesa, Bugera, Peavey etc.) is that they have a master volume, so you don't need to crank them to get high gain. In the old days, amps like the Marshall Plexi and Fender Bassman did not have a preamp gain control, so to get any distortion out of them they had to be VERY loud, which had a tendency to screw one's hearing.

Don't worry about it too much, the 'hearing damage' thing is a little exaggerated. You can still run a 100w amp in your bedroom if you keep the volume low.

Also there is not much volume difference between 50w and 100w, but also some amps are louder than others regardless of their wattage rating.
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#5
OMG THANK YOU SO MUCH. of course im not going to crank the amp up. i currently have a 30 watt Solid state, and with gain fully open, i dont get the master volume above1,5/2.

and you said something about the THD hotplate. well, i was thinking of the Koch Loadbox II attenuator. wich one is a better deal?

thanks again
#6
Quote by Raijouta

Don't worry about it too much, the 'hearing damage' thing is a little exaggerated. You can still run a 100w amp in your bedroom if you keep the volume low.

Also there is not much volume difference between 50w and 100w, but also some amps are louder than others regardless of their wattage rating.


That's true, but I'd be careful, it's really tempting to turn that volume up. I have tinnitus (ringing) in my left ear and a little bit of hearing loss from using non-master volume amp for years in my early 20s, I believe 100wat head turned up to 2 in a small room would do the same in long term.

Just use common sense, you can always buy attenuator (Hotplate) later on. TBH I'd be more concerned about weight and size of the amp than volume, if we talk about modern master volume amps.

Never tried the other one (attenuator). Hotplate is kind of "industry standard" (they have good record and good reviews), but you need to hear it yourself to decide.
Last edited by mdeeRocks at Sep 11, 2010,
#7
Personally I don't think I'd run an attenuator through a 100W head. Even if you bring it down to 10 watts, it'll still be too loud for the average person's house with the amp cranked and the tone will likely suffer dearly with that much attenuation. If you're playing metal, you're probably focusing more on preamp gain anyway. It will lower your overall volume still, however. If you want one, pick one up. The THD Hotplate is fairly reliable, but I'm not familiar with pricing. Make sure you get the correct resistance.
#8
the blackmore has these outputs:

2x4 ohm
2x8 ohm
1x16 ohm

does it matter wich one i choose? the powerplate comes in all of these ohms, so does it make a difference? like will it be a better attenuator when i get the 4 ohm, or the 16 ohm? or doesnt it matter at all?

edit: all the different sorts of THD Hotplates cost the same ($330 new)
Last edited by bartnijman at Sep 11, 2010,
#9
and on cabs:
heres the engl blackmore: http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/EUR/Engl-E-650-Ritchie-Blackmore-Signature-Head/art-GIT0000309-000

and heres the engl blackmore WITH cheap cab (412) cheap footswitch and cheap cable:
http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/EUR/_SET_-Engl-E-650-R.-Blackmore-Head-Cabinet-Pedal-Cable/art-GIT272

and heres the engl blackmore WITH more expensive cab 412 footswitch and cable:
http://www.musicstore.com/en_EN/EUR/_SET_-Engl-E-650-R.-Blackmore-Head-Cabinet-Pedal-Cable/art-GIT273

wich one is a better deal? should i get the cab, footswitch and cables seperatly? please advice
#10
The actual loudness largely depends on your speakers. For you speaker, you'll find a SPL value. SPL (Sound Pressure Level) is measured with 1W of power at 1 meter (about 3 feet) distance.

A straight conversion from watts to decibels (dB) is a nearly impossible thing to do and just to be sure it wouldn't be too easy there's something called 'perceived loudness'.

Hearing damage CAN occur at long-time exposures to >85dB, a 15 minute exposure to >100dB or instantly at >120dB. Notice the word 'can'.

For guitar, a 100 watts is probably more power than you'll ever need, regardless of the SPL value of the speakers attached to it. For bass you'll easily find amplifiers with 500W ratings.
Why more power for bass amps? Because of that perceived loudness I mentioned. The human hearing is a lot less sensitive for lower tones, so you'll need a lot more power to be heard.

As for the outputs on the Blackmore, it is strongly recommended that you obey what the manual says. Plug 4 ohm cabs in the 2x4 outputs, 8 ohm cabs in the 2x8 or a single 16 ohm cab in the 1x16. Plugging a 16 ohm cab in one of the 4 ohm outputs will cause you to only get a fourth of the power. Plugging a 8 ohm cab in a 4 ohm output will reduce the power by half. Putting a 4 ohm cabinet in the 16 ohm output may be dangerous: when the volume is turned up beyond 1/4th, something will be destroyed. Most likely the amp.

You're better off buying one of those music store sets then buying the parts separate. Do some maths yourself and you'll see how enormous the price difference is.
I do not doubt that the Engl cabinet is better than the one made by Fame, but the Fame may be better value for money. I suggest you listen to those cabs and decide whether it's worth the extra €300. As for the cables, Neutrik plugs do have a very good build quality, but they cost 3 times the money. As for sound, the cable won't make the difference. At least not in this case.
#11
Quote by bartnijman
the blackmore has these outputs:

2x4 ohm
2x8 ohm
1x16 ohm

does it matter wich one i choose? the powerplate comes in all of these ohms, so does it make a difference? like will it be a better attenuator when i get the 4 ohm, or the 16 ohm? or doesnt it matter at all?

edit: all the different sorts of THD Hotplates cost the same ($330 new)

It doesn't really matter much as long as all the impedances match.
50W to 100W is only a 3dB increase. It's noticeable but not by much. If you heard 50W cranked and waited a day before hearing the 100W you'd be hard pressed to know which was which.
That Fame cab has Celestion V30s and the Engl has V60s. Which you like is a matter of taste. V60s are more of a scooped tone compared with V30s. The V30's have more top end too. I have no idea how well the Fame is built but the Engl is as solid as a brick shithouse.
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#12
Quote by Cathbard
I have no idea how well the Fame is built but the Engl is as solid as a brick shithouse.

Fame is German. If my life depended on the build quality of a single object, I'd want it to be made by a German.
#13
For guitar, a 100 watts is probably more power than you'll ever need, regardless of the SPL value of the speakers attached to it. For bass you'll easily find amplifiers with 500W ratings.
Why more power for bass amps? Because of that perceived loudness I mentioned. The human hearing is a lot less sensitive for lower tones, so you'll need a lot more power to be heard.

yes, i know that
As for the outputs on the Blackmore, it is strongly recommended that you obey what the manual says. Plug 4 ohm cabs in the 2x4 outputs, 8 ohm cabs in the 2x8 or a single 16 ohm cab in the 1x16. Plugging a 16 ohm cab in one of the 4 ohm outputs will cause you to only get a fourth of the power. Plugging a 8 ohm cab in a 4 ohm output will reduce the power by half. Putting a 4 ohm cabinet in the 16 ohm output may be dangerous: when the volume is turned up beyond 1/4th, something will be destroyed. Most likely the amp.

yes i know, but that was not my question. If i buy the Attenuator (that comes in 4, 8 and 16 ohm versions) wich one is the best to buy? they all cost the same! but does it make a difference to the quality of the attenuator if i buy 4 ohm version instead of, lets say, the 16 ohm version?
i know very well that you have to buy the correct resistance, or else you'll blow everything up. but since the blackmore has 3 kinds of ohm outputs, i was wondering wich one would work best for a attenuator (or doesnt it make a difference?)?
You're better off buying one of those music store sets then buying the parts separate. Do some maths yourself and you'll see how enormous the price difference is.

i know that the price is a difference, but if the cab in that set isnt any good, i'm better of buying (a little more expensive) seperate cab.
I do not doubt that the Engl cabinet is better than the one made by Fame, but the Fame may be better value for money. I suggest you listen to those cabs and decide whether it's worth the extra €300. As for the cables, Neutrik plugs do have a very good build quality, but they cost 3 times the money. As for sound, the cable won't make the difference. At least not in this case.

yeah, i'll do some research.
It doesn't really matter much as long as all the impedances match.

thats all i needed to know. thank you
50W to 100W is only a 3dB increase. It's noticeable but not by much. If you heard 50W cranked and waited a day before hearing the 100W you'd be hard pressed to know which was which.
That Fame cab has Celestion V30s and the Engl has V60s. Which you like is a matter of taste. V60s are more of a scooped tone compared with V30s. The V30's have more top end too. I have no idea how well the Fame is built but the Engl is as solid as a brick shithouse.

as i said earlier in this post, i'll do some research.
Fame is German. If my life depended on the build quality of a single object, I'd want it to be made by a German.

lol

thanks guys
#14
Quote by Raijouta
It means you CAN get hearing damage, and that's from using the amp balls to the wall cranked in a small room.

You actually can get hearing damage from much smaller tube amps as well the closer you are to the speaker.

The thing with the Blackmore and most high gain heads (ENGL, Orange, Mesa, Bugera, Peavey etc.) is that they have a master volume, so you don't need to crank them to get high gain. In the old days, amps like the Marshall Plexi and Fender Bassman did not have a preamp gain control, so to get any distortion out of them they had to be VERY loud, which had a tendency to screw one's hearing.

Don't worry about it too much, the 'hearing damage' thing is a little exaggerated. You can still run a 100w amp in your bedroom if you keep the volume low.

Also there is not much volume difference between 50w and 100w, but also some amps are louder than others regardless of their wattage rating.


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#15
i use my marshall 100W on .5 and it sounds nice...
its a bass amp though so the headroom is very good for cleans