#1
um...how does this work? sometimes i have one instrument play just chord tones/arpegios (idk if thats considered melody) and another play the lead melody and another just improvise/solo over all that. sometimes i get lucky and that works, sometimes it just sounds muddy and retarded. can you guys give me some tip on composing multiple melodies to be played at once?
#2
Quote by TMVATDI
um...how does this work? sometimes i have one instrument play just chord tones/arpegios (idk if thats considered melody) and another play the lead melody and another just improvise/solo over all that. sometimes i get lucky and that works, sometimes it just sounds muddy and retarded. can you guys give me some tip on composing multiple melodies to be played at once?


study counterpoint. like, seriously.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#7
where/how can i study counterpoint? is it basically the same theory as making chords? can u guys recommend a book or place on the internet or something that teaches it well?
and i dont consider anything in theory to be a "rule" because you can always make music that sounds like shit, my definition of a rule is like in math where if it doesnt always work its not a rule, and in music you hae the ability to break these "rules" and make shitty music so i dont call them "rules"
#8
Quote by TMVATDI
where/how can i study counterpoint? is it basically the same theory as making chords? can u guys recommend a book or place on the internet or something that teaches it well?
and i dont consider anything in theory to be a "rule" because you can always make music that sounds like shit, my definition of a rule is like in math where if it doesnt always work its not a rule, and in music you hae the ability to break these "rules" and make shitty music so i dont call them "rules"

No... there are rules to Species Counterpoint (which is where you need to begin). You follow these rules and you're pretty much guaranteed at least something bearable. Free Counterpoint, on the other hand really has no rules.

I've heard good things about Walter Piston's "Counterpoint". I'd recommend getting a teacher though.
Last edited by DiminishedFifth at Sep 11, 2010,
#9
Quote by DiminishedFifth
No... there are rules to Species Counterpoint (which is where you need to begin). You follow these rules and you're pretty much guaranteed at least something bearable. Free Counterpoint, on the other hand really has no rules.

I've heard good things about Walter Piston's "Counterpoint". I'd recommend getting a teacher though.

can't get a teacher, don't have the time or money ill try the book tho.

and what im saying abt rules is that if you break them, you might make shit music, but its still music, so if you can break a rule and it still relatively works, its not a rule. like in math if you break a rule, you do the math wrong and it simply doesnt work, you get the wrong answer and you're not doing math, but if you break a rule in music, its shit-music but still music, know what i mean? to me its more whats common and uncommon than what does or doesnt follow rules.
#10
Quote by TMVATDI
can't get a teacher, don't have the time or money ill try the book tho.

and what im saying abt rules is that if you break them, you might make shit music, but its still music, so if you can break a rule and it still relatively works, its not a rule. like in math if you break a rule, you do the math wrong and it simply doesnt work, you get the wrong answer and you're not doing math, but if you break a rule in music, its shit-music but still music, know what i mean? to me its more whats common and uncommon than what does or doesnt follow rules.


Well, when you dont follow the rules of counterpoint:


sometimes it just sounds muddy and retarded.


You can do anything you want with counterpoint, but more than anything else in music you need to follow the rules; especially for species counterpoint.

If not listen to Ornette Coleman

EDIT: Miles not so much really actually. But if you want your life changed get Ornette's Science Fiction. Not for the faint of heart noobs though as it's a really heavy record, heavier than lead. But it's counterpoint.
Last edited by Pillo114 at Sep 12, 2010,
#11
Quote by Pillo114
Well, when you dont follow the rules of counterpoint:


You can do anything you want with counterpoint, but more than anything else in music you need to follow the rules; especially for species counterpoint.

If not listen to Ornette Coleman, and 68-75 Miles Davis.

yeah, im not criticising counterpoint or saying i shouldnt learn it, i just wouldnt call it "rules." and besides, sometimes a section of a song i write will sound like shit on purpose, and then it all sorts itself out and starts sounding more orderly, i like doing that, and the fact that im able to do that means there's no rule that says i cant

edit: & ill take ur recommendations, thnx
Last edited by TMVATDI at Sep 12, 2010,
#12
Quote by TMVATDI
um...how does this work? sometimes i have one instrument play just chord tones/arpegios (idk if thats considered melody) and another play the lead melody and another just improvise/solo over all that. sometimes i get lucky and that works, sometimes it just sounds muddy and retarded. can you guys give me some tip on composing multiple melodies to be played at once?


sounds like the Greatful Dead
#14
I know what you mean, but the thing with species counterpoint is that it revels on the mathematical quality and perfection of it so in a way you do want to follow the rules.

Free counterpoint like diminished said is a whole nother ball game though, and that is really influenced by taste and musicality more than rules or guidelines.
#15
Quote by sethp
sounds like the Greatful Dead

i like them!

edit: and thanks everybody

edit: and haha i love that youtube dude's accent xD
Last edited by TMVATDI at Sep 12, 2010,
#16
two examples of counterpoint : JS Bach & New Orleans Jazz where several players are playing different melodic lines at once...and yet they know where each other is...

you should listen to alot of each style and let it sink in..its a wonderful sound trip..

applying that degree of counterpoint takes some study ... but with patience and determination...

play well

wolf
#17
You just mumbled about that "no rules" gibberish in my thread which discussed counterpoint, and now you made a new thread yourself still mumbling about that while both missing the fact that it's called counterpoint (did you actually read through my thread?) and saying that you sometimes try that and it "sounds muddy and retarded".

You need to check your definition of "rules". No one said that the rules written for a specific aspect are the only possibility and no one said that compositions not-exactly following them would sound bad, but a musical rule defined to establish a certain type of composition is just that, and it's most certainly not marginal in something like contrapuntal music. Knowing specific important rules as a basis would then allow you to compose while maybe not completely following them but still know what else can be done and how.

The fact that you may describe a scramble of unrelated notes as music doesn't mean by and way that an established rule is suddenly not a rule. It's there to help you avoid that kind of result when you don't want it, such as when you compose something that is not "muddy and retarded" because its structure was consciously built.
Last edited by user1a at Sep 12, 2010,
#18
k abt the rules thing, my definition of a "rule" in music is something that makes it not music anymore. is shit-music still music? fudge yeah! and sometimes making things sound bad can work out if you make it sound good later, taking the listener on kind of a trip to uncomfortable territory. i've heard the mars volta and the rx bandits multiple times dedicate a small section of a song to shitty noise, its still music tho. thats why i consider them not rules, you can still make music without them. i just prefer to call them "guidelines" than rules, it makes more sense to me that way.

and when i rambled in ur thread at first i didnt even read ur entire first post and didnt even know what counterpoint is, and i still barely do, i thought i was giving you a new way to think, didn't really realize you've already gotten past that thinking.

and i didnt even mean to continue a conversation abt "rules" and get every1 all butt-fudged abt it, i meant to jump in, spill my 2 cents, and get out.
#19
^ theres not really that many "rules" as it were in music. i've found that if you can explain why it should sound good, then it will within reason.
#20
I'm all about being creative, and complex - and what you keep mumbling about is not a "new way of thinking". You even just said that you just replied without even reading what the hell you're commenting about. As much as it sounds "freeing" to you, not knowing any rules in something complex like counterpoint is probably more confining than unlimiting. Music several hundred years ago, in the time where these ideas formed, was probably more restrictive than it should be, but it had a lot of sense in it, and knowing RULES FOR A SPECIFIC ASPECT OF IT would help in achieving it - and more.

And the fact that you keep saying that any noise is music doesn't mean that it's music like another thing is. By that you may even call the sound of an old engine "music". Actually trying to write something that "doesn't sound good", but still sounds like something you're trying to write, is one thing, and failing in writing something that actually sounds good because you don't know how to realize it is another thing.

And "butt-fudged"?... WTF?
Last edited by user1a at Sep 14, 2010,