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#1
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/14/france.burqa.ban/index.html

Paris, France (CNN) -- The French senate approved Tuesday a law banning any veils that cover the face -- including the burqa, the full-body covering worn by some Muslim women -- making France the first European country to plan such a measure.

The law passed by a vote of 246 to 1, with about 100 abstentions coming essentially from left-leaning politicians.

The legislation was overwhelmingly approved by the lower house of parliament in July and will go into effect next spring.

French people back the ban by a margin of more than four to one, the Pew Global Attitudes Project found in a survey earlier this year.

Some 82 percent of people polled approved of a ban, while 17 percent disapproved. That was the widest support the Washington-based think tank found in any of the five countries it surveyed.

Clear majorities also backed burqa bans in Germany, Britain and Spain, while two out of three Americans opposed it, the survey found.

A panel of French lawmakers recommended a ban last year, and lawmakers unanimously passed a non-binding resolution in May calling the full-face veil contrary to the laws of the nation.

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

The law imposes a fine of 150 euros ($190) and/or a citizenship course as punishment for wearing a face-covering veil. Forcing a woman to wear a niqab or a burqa will be punishable by a year in prison or a 15,000-euro ($19,000) fine, the government said, calling it "a new form of enslavement that the republic cannot accept on its soil."

The French Council of State has warned that the ban could be incompatible with international human rights laws and the country's own constitution. The council advises on laws, but the government is not required to follow its recommendations.

The ban pertains to the burqa, a full-body covering that includes a mesh over the face, and the niqab, a full-face veil that leaves an opening only for the eyes. The hijab, which covers the hair and neck but not the face, and the chador, which covers the body but not the face, apparently are not banned by the law.

However, a 2004 law in France bans the wearing or displaying of overt religious symbols in schools -- including the wearing of headscarves by schoolgirls.

The Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life estimates that France has about 3.5 million Muslims, or about 6 percent of the population.

France does not keep its own statistics on religious affiliation of the population, in keeping with its laws requiring the state to be strictly secular.


TL;DR: Women wearing a burqa voluntarily will be fined $190. People forcing women to wear a burqa will be fined $19000.

I agree with the fine on forcing women to wear a burqa. But fining women for voluntarily wearing a burqa? That's plain xenophobia.

I find a lot of irony in protecting your rights by taking them away.
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#2
Choosing to hide your face? That's a finin'.

No, really, there are legit reasons why the women who wear hijab/burqas do it. Not all are religious.

[IN PHIL WE TRUST]


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#3
I agree with fines for forced wear, but not for voluntary wear. There should, however, be fines for refusing to remove the veil upon request from authorities (ID and whatnot)
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#4
If it is involuntary I have no problem with making that shit illegal. But there are plenty of women who wear them voluntarily, and there is absolutely no justification for banning their right to wear it.
#8
I agree with the forcing fine, forcing someone to wear something like that is stupid. But when someone wears it because they want to, they get scammed out of $190...
#9
Quote by Avedas
Is there even a legitimate reason for this?

The article says:
The law passed by a vote of 246 to 1, with about 100 abstentions coming essentially from left-leaning politicians.

My call is Islamophobia. 100 abstentions coming from left leaning politicians. That means that the right winged politicians approved it, and the left leaning are afraid of opposing it, as most likely they'd be seen as Islam supporters and it would by political suicide for them.
There are other concerns such as Muslim women refusing to remove the burqa for photo identifications, or the field of vision being limited while driving. But these concerns could be taken care of without banning the burqa.
I can't blame them for Islamophobia with such a big growth in an isolated Islamic population in France. But taking away freedoms isn't a way to solve integration and immigration issues.
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#10
I wonder if they've read Infidel by Ayaan Hirsi Ali?
Too Many Religious People And Not Enough Lions
#11
Quote by Avedas
Is there even a legitimate reason for this?

"Given the damage it produces on those rules which allow the life in community, ensure the dignity of the person and equality between sexes, this practice, even if it is voluntary, cannot be tolerated in any public place," the French government said when it sent the measure to parliament in May.

This is the one given.

I agree with involuntary, disagree with voluntary except for ID checking, yada yada.
#13
As much as I dont like the government telling these women they cant wear the full body veils, I can't say I'm really upset by this. I do see it as a form of enslavement.
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#14
Quote by urik
The article says:
The law passed by a vote of 246 to 1, with about 100 abstentions coming essentially from left-leaning politicians.

My call is Islamophobia. 100 abstentions coming from left leaning politicians. That means that the right winged politicians approved it, and the left leaning are afraid of opposing it, as most likely they'd be seen as Islam supporters and it would by political suicide for them.
There are other concerns such as Muslim women refusing to remove the burqa for photo identifications, or the field of vision being limited while driving. But these concerns could be taken care of without banning the burqa.
I can't blame them for Islamophobia with such a big growth in an isolated Islamic population in France. But taking away freedoms isn't a way to solve integration and immigration issues.


This is what I was getting at. There doesn't seem to be a need to outright ban this. Sorry I need to specify common sense
#15
Their country
Let em do with it as they please.

They still smell though.
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#16
It's not xenophobic to ban burqas. It was already illegal to walk ''masked'' on the street. And since a burqa is actually a mask......
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#18
what's wrong with islamophobia? sure, it's wrong to discriminate against people for ethnicity, sex, etc. but something they can control such as their stupid ass beliefs? if i'm picking a guy for a job, i'm not going to pick a dude who thinks the earth is flat. dude's a dumbshit. so is anyone who subscribes to islam. it's a filthy religion for filthy people: white, brown, black, yellow, green, etc.

edit: france is merely running its country efficiently. since the days of alexander the great, anyone knows if you're going to be a successful, united country you have to be culturally assimilated.
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Sep 15, 2010,
#19
Quote by primusfan
what's wrong with islamophobia? sure, it's wrong to discriminate against people for ethnicity, sex, etc. but something they can control such as their stupid ass beliefs? if i'm picking a guy for a job, i'm not going to pick a dude who thinks the earth is flat. dude's a dumbshit. so is anyone who subscribes to islam. it's a filthy religion for filthy people: white, brown, black, yellow, green, etc.

It's not exactly Scientology. Are you trolling?
#20
Quote by captaincrunk
It's not exactly Scientology. Are you trolling?


the worst thing scientology ever did was provide a tax loophole for celebrities. compare scientology's body count to islam's. are YOU trolling?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
#DTWD
#21
I hope they ban the burqa in Australia
Too Many Religious People And Not Enough Lions
#22
Quote by primusfan
the worst thing scientology ever did was provide a tax loophole for celebrities. compare scientology's body count to islam's. are YOU trolling?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/



You tell em!!!

You should have your modship back...just saying.


OT: To me, it's perfectly fine. I'm not even going to bullshit you, I could give two shits less about the stupid thing. About time France quit being giant puss cakes and did something.
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#23
the worst thing scientology ever did was provide a tax loophole for celebrities. compare scientology's body count to islam's. are YOU trolling?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
Why should I care about the body count? It has nothing to do with how stupid John Q Islam is vs. Tom Cruise.
#24
Quote by primusfan
the worst thing scientology ever did was provide a tax loophole for celebrities. compare scientology's body count to islam's. are YOU trolling?

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Please guys let's not turn this thread into a religion argument that will be locked. It's supposed to be about bans on freedoms such as wearing whatever you want to.
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#25
Quote by urik
Please guys let's not turn this thread into a religion argument that will be locked. It's supposed to be about bans on freedoms such as wearing whatever you want to.



If you only frame the issue in those terms of course it's indefensible. That's like saying "Ok, Ok, this abortion issue isn't a religious thing. It's about killing babies". Anyone who didn't already know what abortion was would assume you meant killing babies.
#26
Quote by urik
Please guys let's not turn this thread into a religion argument that will be locked. It's supposed to be about bans on freedoms such as wearing whatever you want to.



If there's one thing the French love more than cheese, it's social contracts

Tough shit, this burka thing falls under that.

woops

didn't they also ban crosses and shit like that out in public as well???
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#27
Quote by captaincrunk
Why should I care about the body count? It has nothing to do with how stupid John Q Islam is vs. Tom Cruise.

scientology seems more far-fetched because it is a religion to which fewer people subscribe. that's about it. muslims believe that their religion, which was invented in the 7th century, is the pure form of religion which was originally practiced by jews but was distorted over time, but somehow in the 7th century muslims were able to magically know how jews practiced centuries before when the prophet, and pedophile, mohammed started hearing voices and decided this was god speaking to him so he wrote it all down even though he was illiterate.

he was also incredibly violent. today, we call illiterate, violent people who hear voices mentally handicapped rather than "prophet."

their entire religion is based on the voices heard inside the head of an illiterate schizophrenic sociopath.
#DTWD
#28
Since you mention abortion...i think its a good thing to have that Free Choice of the abortion option
Too Many Religious People And Not Enough Lions
#29
Quote by primusfan
scientology seems more far-fetched because it is a religion to which fewer people subscribe. that's about it. muslims believe that their religion, which was invented in the 7th century, is the pure form of religion which was originally practiced by jews but was distorted over time, but somehow in the 7th century muslims were able to magically know how jews practiced centuries before when the prophet, and pedophile, mohammed started hearing voices and decided this was god speaking to him so he wrote it all down even though he was illiterate.

he was also incredibly violent. today, we call illiterate, violent people who hear voices mentally handicapped rather than "prophet."

their entire religion is based on the voices heard inside the head of an illiterate schizophrenic sociopath.



He was also a pedo.
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#30
Quote by primusfan
scientology seems more far-fetched because it is a religion to which fewer people subscribe. that's about it. muslims believe that their religion, which was invented in the 7th century, is the pure form of religion which was originally practiced by jews but was distorted over time, but somehow in the 7th century muslims were able to magically know how jews practiced centuries before when the prophet, and pedophile, mohammed started hearing voices and decided this was god speaking to him so he wrote it all down even though he was illiterate.

he was also incredibly violent. today, we call illiterate, violent people who hear voices mentally handicapped rather than "prophet."

their entire religion is based on the voices heard inside the head of an illiterate schizophrenic sociopath.

If someone believes in the Muslim faith they either came to it independently or were raised that way, it's probably not their fault. It seems less crazy to them because they're used to it's inconsistencies and problems., If someone is a Scientologist it's pretty much guaranteed crazy.
#31
Why did the French McDonalds go bankrupt?


Because they banned hamburqas.

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

I hereby nominate myself for the worst joke of the year award
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#33
Quote by Demon Wolf
Why did the French McDonalds go bankrupt?


Because they banned hamburqas.

YEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!

I hereby nominate myself for the worst joke of the year award


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#35
A girl in one of my classes wore a full burqa and nobody seemed to care. At least they aren't banning the hijaab, that'd be mindnumbingly moronic. I still think it would be better to do the ID check thing, but I can see some sort of reasoning in banning them, though at the same rate, they should also ban ANYTHING that covers the entire face, not just veils.
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#36
I like this banning because it's like... "**** you. We don't buy your whole Islam is a religion of peace idea "
Too Many Religious People And Not Enough Lions
#38
Quote by jetfuel495
And so much for that whole Christians turning the other cheek thing, right?

Only applies if you’re a christian
Too Many Religious People And Not Enough Lions
#40
Quote by jetfuel495
Touche.

But I assume a good portion of France is.


Yeah probaly.

Nice use of the french word there Very applicable
Too Many Religious People And Not Enough Lions