#1
I'm having trouble soloing over the circled chord progressions. The Cm7 to G7b9 is throwing me off. These chords clash with the melody. I am playing Wes Montgomery's version where he adds inflections to the melody. In Rodgers and Hammerstein's original version from the musical Oklahoma!, these changes are avoided completely as well as in Wes' version. Any help as to how I should analyze these progressions and more importantly, what should be played over them would be greatly appreciated. I am going to post Shadow Of your Smile in a few minutes. I need help with that one as well. Thank You!

MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#2
Here is Shadow. Im having trouble playing over the C#-7b5 to F#7 change. Im guessing I could play what Im playing over the F#-7b5 to B7 (harmonic minor) and modulate it to fit those chords. However it doesnt sound right. The rest of the chart is pretty straight forward except for the Turnaround at the end. The last line. Im thinking the best way to approach that would be to play arpeggios of the chords. Thank You!
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
Last edited by WesM.Vaughan at Sep 22, 2010,
#3
Sorry - I can't read sheet music. What key is it in?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#4
surrey is in Bb maj and Shadow is in E minor
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#5
Are you just playing this by yourself? You could try changing the chords to something you're more comfortable soloing over. That might not work if you're in a band setting though.
The guy's a beast, but he uses 8s. So he's shit.
-juckfush on Alex Hutchings.
#6
Quote by VeilOfMaya
Are you just playing this by yourself? You could try changing the chords to something you're more comfortable soloing over. That might not work if you're in a band setting though.


Yeah...I am playing in a quartet combo . guitar/bass/piano/drums. I was thinking about changing those(surrey) chords to harmonize with the key signature , however we have a gig friday. And Shadow I really need to learn what to play over those chords. I just cant seem to pick out a scale to work over those chords in shadow.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#7
I dont understand how the first tune clashes with the melody? It's like, all chord tones..
Don't tell me what can not be done

Don't tell me what can be done, either.



I love you all no matter what.
#8
Quote by nightwind
I dont understand how the first tune clashes with the melody? It's like, all chord tones..


Only with the "circled" chord progressions. I am playing Wes Montgomery's version where he adds notes to the melody. Either way, those chords sound weird to me in the context of the song.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#9
I don't have a guitar on me right now, so can't give an exact answer.

However you should be able to figure it out yourself if you first take the key's scale (Bbmaj or Emin) then add accidentals to them to accommodate for the "outside-key" notes found in the chords.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#10
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Only with the "circled" chord progressions. I am playing Wes Montgomery's version where he adds notes to the melody. Either way, those chords sound weird to me in the context of the song.



Still confused. The circled progression only uses chord tones. If it sounds weird to you, you just need to get it in your ear because it isn't an especially strange progression or anything
Don't tell me what can not be done

Don't tell me what can be done, either.



I love you all no matter what.
#11
with that circled bit in surrey, its just (C minor) i - V - i - V - ii - V - i

so, natural minor over the whole lot - it might sound wierd cos of the dominant b9 chord, which comes across kind of dissonant. but in the context of that circled section, it should sound fine
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#12
Quote by Tominator_1991
with that circled bit in surrey, its just (C minor) i - V - i - V - ii - V - i


Interesting. I'm sorta unclear on how you jazz guys think about it, but this would mean that you could employ accidentals to the parent key scale (Bb maj) to make it represent a scale that shares the same notes as Bb phrygian?
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#13
Quote by AlanHB
Interesting. I'm sorta unclear on how you jazz guys think about it, but this would mean that you could employ accidentals to the parent key scale (Bb maj) to make it represent a scale that shares the same notes as Bb phrygian?



i would have said it modulates to Eb maj for those few bars and hangs out in the relative minor. its easy done because all you do is flatten the A
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#14
Quote by Tominator_1991
i would have said it modulates to Eb maj for those few bars and hangs out in the relative minor. its easy done because all you do is flatten the A


All good. We're talking about the same notes anyways, just how you may approach it changes.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#15
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Here is Shadow. Im having trouble playing over the C#-7b5 to F#7 change. Im guessing I could play what Im playing over the F#-7b5 to B7 (harmonic minor) and modulate it to fit those chords. However it doesnt sound right. The rest of the chart is pretty straight forward except for the Turnaround at the end. The last line. Im thinking the best way to approach that would be to play arpeggios of the chords. Thank You!
(Invalid img)

the reason why the C# split to F#7 change sound bad compared to F# split to B7 is because the B acts as a dominant to E min, whereas the F#7 doesn't resolve to what you would expect (B maj), instead going to F#min7, which is really the beginning of another ii-V turnaround, so you don't want it to be resolved anyway.

don't know what to tell you about the other one, those are pretty much all chord tones over those chords in the melody (except for the C over the G in the second bar there, which is just a passing tone anyway). I would suggest not emulating Wes' version of the melody (he knows what he's doing) while you're soloing if it sounds bad to you. The G7b9 is simply a dominant resolving to the Cminor, so emphasize that movement during that part (especially with the b9, it resolves quite nicely to the fifth of the C minor chord, which is a G note). the D split to G7b9 is a minor ii-V movement, resolving to the Cminor in the next bar, so you also want to emphasize that chord change.

good luck mah man
#16
the real book is notorious for ****ed up changes, particularly weird turnarounds. If it sounds off get with a recording and use your ears and knowledge of the tune/theory.
#17
Tom is right, its just minor ii V I - Its too easy to over analyse it. Alan... Jazz constantly changes keys and cycles up minor 3rds or changes according to Co5ths etc. You learn to see things in terms of key centers and play things that are making melodies along those key centers, using a certain approach over an altered dominant, arps, outside inside playing etc. It's not for the weak of heart, but once you can play Jazz you can pretty much figure anything else out.

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Sep 23, 2010,
#18
Skimming this thread, my biggest recommendation would be to stick to guide tone lines, or even the melody for getting past that chord change. That's usually what I'll do if I come across something I don't know what to play over, I just follow the melody, expand on it a little bit or just stick to the 3rds and 7ths (or b5, 7, and 9s in this case) and you should be alright. Just have something strong for when you get back into it, don't let that change sound like it bogs you down.
Quote by Guitardude19
The world is a fucked up place.


Tele's

"Oh I'll play the blues for you"
#19
WOW! Thanks for all the helpful information. I didn't even think about analyzing the surrey progression(circled) using a minor tonic. I'm using a chart (I will try to post later) that shows chords/scales based on a major tonic. I have not taken the time to analyze this chart in terms of minor tonic. This is probably why I am having trouble playing songs with a minor key signature. This forum and its users are my favorite. Money has been slow and its hard to drive an hour to pay for a $50 dollar lesson every week. This has made my day!
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#20
here is the major key chart...Does anyone have a link to something like this in minor?
So in the natural minor scale form it would be i iio III iv v VI VII and the corresponding modes would be Aeolian Locrian Ionian Dorian phrygian Lydian and Mixolydian respectively?

MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#21
Quote by Tominator_1991
with that circled bit in surrey, its just (C minor) i - V - i - V - ii - V - i
That's all there is to it.

That's the thing about jazz changes. You can cycle through quite a few different keys/tonal centers without having a strict modulation.

This piece uses the keys Bb major, Eb major, F major, and C minor in different places.

Quote by st.stephen
the reason why the C# split to F#7 change sound bad compared to F# split to B7 is because the B acts as a dominant to E min, whereas the F#7 doesn't resolve to what you would expect (B maj), instead going to F#min7, which is really the beginning of another ii-V turnaround, so you don't want it to be resolved anyway.
This. It's just an unresolved ii V turnaround to B minor. I would just play in B minor, making sure you don't lead into the tonic, and it should sound fine.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Sep 23, 2010,
#22
Okay I've been looking at Shadow and here is my analysis. After the pickup notes, it immediately changes to the parallel Major (E major) the F#-7 to the B7(9) is just a ii V. When it changes to the Bb9 (beats 3 & 4, 2nd meas.), I Could play mixolydian b2***. Measures 3 & 4 are the ii V's of D major. Measures 5-8 relative major of E minor. Measure 9 there is the
F#-7b5 (split = half diminished?) but then it goes to a B7(V7 instead of v7) which makes it
harmonic minor. So I could play natural or harmonic minor over the the F# split(F# dorian #4 for example) and MUST play harmonic minor over the B7(F# dorian#4 for example) and MUST play natural minor over the E-7. Therefore, the C# split in meas. 13 should be treated the same way( I could play harmonic minor: C# dorian#4). Gonna take a break here.

*** question about the ii7 to V7b9 change. The flatted second scale degree causes the tonality to become harmonic minor? If I play dorian and use the flatted ninth of the V chord I would be playing dorian #4 mode of harmonic minor. So It would be better to play regular dorian over the ii7 and then switch to harmonic minor when the V7b9 implies it?

Is my analysis correct? Critique at will!! Also what is an alt. chord? E7 alt. in meas. 24.
Gonna go try some of this out and will post the rest of my analysis later. THanks for all ya'lls help.
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#23
Quote by food1010
This piece uses the keys Bb major, Eb major, F major, and C minor in different places.


Quote by food1010
This. It's just an unresolved ii V turnaround to B minor. I would just play in B minor, making sure you don't lead into the tonic, and it should sound fine.



Shouldn't these be harmonic minor?
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#24
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Shouldn't these be harmonic minor?
Harmonic minor isn't a key, so no. Although the harmonic minor scale is appropriate over a V chord.

Quote by WesM.Vaughan
*** question about the ii7 to V7b9 change. The flatted second scale degree causes the tonality to become harmonic minor? If I play dorian and use the flatted ninth of the V chord I would be playing dorian #4 mode of harmonic minor. So It would be better to play regular dorian over the ii7 and then switch to harmonic minor when the V7b9 implies it?
If I understand your question correctly then here's how I would go about it:

F#m7: Diatonic to E major, I would use the E major scale.
B7(9): You could really use either the E major scale or the E harmonic minor scale here. E harmonic minor could be useful because of the next chord:
B7(b9): This suggests that you should use the E harmonic minor scale, particularly because it resolves to E minor.
Em7: This suggests E natural minor.

Another option (instead of the E major scale) is to use the E melodic minor scale. If you like the minor feel, you can use the melodic minor (ascending form) over the F#m7 and revert to the descending form (natural minor) on the Em7 (you could even use a bit of dorian modal mixture here as well if you like the natural 6). Just be careful to still use the b6 from the harmonic minor over that B7(b9) or else you might get some clashing.

I'll type out my analysis of all the changes so you can compare your work with mine and maybe ask some questions. Give me a few minutes.

I already explained the first turnaround so I'll go from that Em7 in bar three.

-Bars 3-4: Em7 - A7. This looks a lot like a turnaround to D. D major scale may be optimal here, although you're going to want to try to avoid approaching a resolution.
-Bars 5-8: ii V I IV in G major, simple enough.
-Bars 9-12: We've got a nice turnaround to E minor. E harmonic minor will work over bars 9 and 10, then the E natural minor over bars 11 and 12.
-Bars 13-14: I think we covered this earlier, another deceptive turnaround to B minor.
-Bars 15-16: E major or E melodic minor will work well depending on what you prefer.
-Bars 17-18: I think I went over this too.
-Bars 19-22: Same as bars 3-8.
From here on out, it's pretty much the same deal except with a lot of key changes. Goes from A minor to Bb major to A major to Ab major to G major, then the B7 brings it back to E minor. If you want more specific advice on how to play over these changes, let me know, I just don't feel like typing out a whole bunch.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
Last edited by food1010 at Sep 23, 2010,
#25
Is the reason you can use either e major or E melodic minor of the ii V's because both (when 7ths are added) share the same chord qualities. So since there is not another chord to suggest otherwise ( any other chord would give it away) then there is no real way to say whether its major or melodic minor? Can this be applied to all ii V's (as long as there is not another chord to suggest melodic minor or major)?

What is an Alt. chord? in measure 24.
Why is the A7 to Eb7 Ab major? that is a ?7 to V7

Other than that, I agree with what you posted completely. I was analyzing using modes instead of Major/minor... Using modes helps me with the licks I play. I like looking at things from a dorian perspective. Thank You Food and everyone else for their input!!
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#26
For Surrey ...

The part you circled is a weird turnaround (weird to me at least) that very well may be a misprint although I'm not familiar with the song, so I did some research.

Here's a turnaround that is a little more standard.

http://www.bushgrafts.com/jazz/Movies/TheSurreyLeadsheet.pdf

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHGzprbLIEc

And there's the guy playing it.

Just the turnaround though, the rest of it is way more complicated.
Last edited by jogogonne at Sep 23, 2010,
#27
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
here is the major key chart...Does anyone have a link to something like this in minor?
So in the natural minor scale form it would be i iio III iv v VI VII and the corresponding modes would be Aeolian Locrian Ionian Dorian phrygian Lydian and Mixolydian respectively?

(Invalid img)

yes to natural minor
harmonic minor scale is i iio III+(aug) iv V VI viio and you can figure out that to all 12 keys on your own I guess
#28
Quote by jogogonne
For Surrey ...

The part you circled is a weird turnaround (weird to me at least) that very well may be a misprint although I'm not familiar with the song, so I did some research.




The part just modulates to C minor - for this all you do is flatten the A (or Eb Major) and its just basic ii V i

Jazz does it SO often, like modulate to the next on the cycle of fourths / fifths for a small section, often just to get the sound of tension - and in this section the chords move from the dominant to the tonic often, creating said tension
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#29
Quote by jogogonne
Here's a turnaround that is a little more standard.


That chart is a whole step above the chart I am playing. However, I do like the chord voicing...they seem closer to what Wes is playing. We have a gig in 6 hours. Thanks to everyone who has shared their knowledge. I am able to play over shadow a lot better now (the changes come pretty quick). I just need to work on phrasing to slow bossa. I hope karma rewards y'all well!

Anybody know what a alt chord is?
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#30
Quote by WesM.Vaughan


Anybody know what a alt chord is?


In Jazz, its where a dominant chord has the fifth or ninth sharpened or flattened a semi tone
Quote by BlitzkriegAir
1. Get drunk
2. play pentatonic scales fast
3. throw in some divebombs and pinch harmonics
4. Get killed onstage
5. become legendary guitarist instantaneously


Quote by Holy Katana

How dare you attack the greatness of the augmented sixth?
#31
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Is the reason you can use either e major or E melodic minor of the ii V's because both (when 7ths are added) share the same chord qualities. So since there is not another chord to suggest otherwise ( any other chord would give it away) then there is no real way to say whether its major or melodic minor? Can this be applied to all ii V's (as long as there is not another chord to suggest melodic minor or major)?
Yep that's pretty much it. The reason it's ambiguous is because the chords lack either a G or a G#.

Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Why is the A7 to Eb7 Ab major? that is a ?7 to V7
This measure is a bit odd. I guess you could see the A7 as a tritone substitution in Ab major, but I'd just look at it as either in A major or D major. If you look at it in terms of D major, then the Eb7 is kind of like a false tritone sub of that key which actually resolves like a regular dominant (to Ab). So in this case, A7 is D major and Eb7 is Ab major (or minor I guess).
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#32
Well gig went okay I guess. I made a few mistakes on my solos. Band made a few mistakes on some songs, but I guess that is the learning experience. I might post my solo in a few days so people can critique it. Are there any threads where users submit improvised solos over jazz standards? If not, is anyone interested in doing that?
MARTY FRIEDMAN--"It’s a lot easier to be technical than it is stylized; it really is... But I think it’s a lot more rare to have someone who’s really got their own sound because that’s something you can’t practice."
#33
Quote by WesM.Vaughan
Are there any threads where users submit improvised solos over jazz standards? If not, is anyone interested in doing that?
I think it would be cool if we did a thread like that, where someone would post a backing track of some changes (and write them out as well, of course) and people could record themselves playing over the changes, and others who are participating could critique the solos. I would definitely participate if I had a way to record myself. If nothing else, I would help give feedback to people.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea