#1
I am covering Crazy Train with a band i'm in and would like to write some of my own fills and solo parts and was just wondering what key the song is in and what scale i should use when writing my fills
#4
Yes, the intro is F# Minor. You can tell whenever you find a pattern of switching between intervals of a fifth and minor sixth (IE 2 frets above on the higher string, then 3); most of the time the "root note" of that pattern is the key name. The main riff keeps the same number of sharps, but moves to the major key (relative major) of A.
#6
Quote by Blktiger0
ok, i have no idea what most of that means....except the F#minor and A Major. i really need the scale name more than anything...i'm pretty theory retarded


Relative Major is the related key with the same number of sharps/flats with a different root note. F# Minor has 3 sharps, but A Major has 3 sharps as well.

I don't think I explained the pattern thing in the best way... let me just give you an example:

E|----------------------|
B|----------------------|
G|----------------------|
D|----------------------|
A|----2---3----2----3-|
E|--0---0---0----0----|

Usually that indicates a minor key, in this case E.
#7
Quote by WizMystery
Relative Major is the related key with the same number of sharps/flats with a different root note. F# Minor has 3 sharps, but A Major has 3 sharps as well.

I don't think I explained the pattern thing in the best way... let me just give you an example:

E|----------------------|
B|----------------------|
G|----------------------|
D|----------------------|
A|----2---3----2----3-|
E|--0---0---0----0----|

Usually that indicates a minor key, in this case E.


You are still speaking a foreign language to me. Just give me a scale name. For example: B Dorian, Eb Pentatonic Minor, C# Major. Just tell me that and i'll be good. trying to explain the theory of it like that is like trying to speak spanish to a russian. while i did understand some of what you said, it didn't really help me in the way that i need help...but i still appreciate the help...you just have to understand that i am seriously theory retarded.
#8
Dude, if something is in the key of F# minor, the scale you use to solo over the song is F# minor (unless it modulates).
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#9
Quote by Blktiger0
You are still speaking a foreign language to me. Just give me a scale name. For example: B Dorian, Eb Pentatonic Minor, C# Major. Just tell me that and i'll be good. trying to explain the theory of it like that is like trying to speak spanish to a russian. while i did understand some of what you said, it didn't really help me in the way that i need help...but i still appreciate the help...you just have to understand that i am seriously theory retarded.

If you can't even understand that then I very much doubt you are gonna be any good at soloing over it

I mean, this is the most basic theoretical concept there is, knowing what key you are in.
I'd REALLY advise you to get some theory lessons or start reading up on it somewhere, because you're going nowhere fast if you need people to tell you what key is Crazy Train in.
#10
Quote by piszczel
If you can't even understand that then I very much doubt you are gonna be any good at soloing over it

I mean, this is the most basic theoretical concept there is, knowing what key you are in.
I'd REALLY advise you to get some theory lessons or start reading up on it somewhere, because you're going nowhere fast if you need people to tell you what key is Crazy Train in.


Slash only ever learned on scale (the Pentatonic Scale) and never had any form of formal lessons in his life while he was in Guns n Roses. At that time he probably couldn't tell you what notes he was playing. I think he was pretty well off, so i doubt i lose all respect in the music world for not knowing theory. Dicky Betts also didn't know theory and in a Guitar World column stated that once he finally did learn a little theory, he realized that some of the notes he used while soloing were technically incorrect, but he didn't care because they sounded right to him. Once, again, the Allman Brothers aren't exactly worthless, now are they?

improving skills are not based on knowing everything about theory. My last theory question was asking people what key a song i wrote was in and what scale to use to solo to it, so i thought this was kinda a step up. Oh, and i was really happy with how that song turned out and how well the solo sounded. just because someone can't read the sign that says toilet, doesn't mean they don't know how to use it. 95% of the world has no idea how to write a computer program, but i'll bet 99% of the world can use a computer program.

Quote by AlanHB
Dude, if something is in the key of F# minor, the scale you use to solo over the song is F# minor (unless it modulates).


Once again, sorry for not being a master of theory. The next time i ask a question, i'll make sure to know the answer and everything about the answer before i ask so i don't look so stupid....
#11
to answer you question, play F#minor, thats normally the key where the fills are in this song. He wasn't insulting you, hes advising you to take theory lessons, they will help a lot. After some practice, you'll be able to tell key just by playing the notes. Trust me, they weren't trying to sound insulting, but why do you give theory a shot? there are plenty of lessons on UG plus all over the internet to give a shot. Try out www.musictheory.net or The Crusade articles on here. I mean, whatya have to lose?
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#12
Quote by Blktiger0
Once again, sorry for not being a master of theory. The next time i ask a question, i'll make sure to know the answer and everything about the answer before i ask so i don't look so stupid....


Hey you went on the offensive, so I gave you a blunt answer.

As for Slash, that stuff can be filed away with "Slash urban legends" along with the one which goes "Slash learnt on a guitar with one string".

If Slash did learn no theory at all, it doesn't explain why he ONLY uses the major, minor, blues and penatonic scales, and can play everything in key. Nearly every solo he did with Guns n Roses modulated from the original key.

What does this mean? It means if you learn theory, you can play the exact same way Slash does, except you may be able to learn how to do it a bit faster than he did.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#13
Quote by AlanHB
Hey you went on the offensive, so I gave you a blunt answer.

As for Slash, that stuff can be filed away with "Slash urban legends" along with the one which goes "Slash learnt on a guitar with one string".

If Slash did learn no theory at all, it doesn't explain why he ONLY uses the major, minor, blues and penatonic scales, and can play everything in key. Nearly every solo he did with Guns n Roses modulated from the original key.

What does this mean? It means if you learn theory, you can play the exact same way Slash does, except you may be able to learn how to do it a bit faster than he did.


Ok, well i guess Slash's biography is just full of urban legends, considering that is where i got the "legend" that he didn't learn theory. Why in the hell would i want to play the exact same way Slash does? That would be completely pointless and uncreative. However, i also don't want to play faster than him, as songs like Coma have fast enough guitar solos, not to mention many others. There is such a thing as playing too fast (many John Petrucci songs). The old saying is, if you can't imitate your solo with your mouth, it's too much. I was also not "on the offensive" but merely trying to describe my lack of theory knowledge and asking for a simple answer that i could understand. if the scale i need is the F#minor/A Major scale then i think the question is answered and there is no need to continue this discussion. I think from now on i'll use a more friendly forum that isn't appalled at the idea of someone that lacks theory knowledge. you would think a moderator would be a bit more polite.
#14
Re-read the thread mate. You just took offence to the answers for no particular reason.

I said you could "learn" faster, not "play" faster. As for Slash, he does know theory. That's why he uses the same scales as everybody else. I've read his autobiography too.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#15
Quote by AlanHB
Re-read the thread mate. You just took offence to the answers for no particular reason.

I said you could "learn" faster, not "play" faster. As for Slash, he does know theory. That's why he uses the same scales as everybody else. I've read his autobiography too.


well, when i'm constantly being nagged at for not knowing that if something is in a certain key then that's it's scale and being told that i need to learn theory, i feel a bit insulted. if you don't want to answer my question in a way i'll understand it, then don't answer. Then only theory i'm concerned with is knowing what scales i want to use and when. Which translates to knowing what notes to play and what notes no to play. I avoid theory for one reason: when i play using theory, it sounds way to technical and less personal. I feel my playing and let it flow and i don't want to ruin that with tons of theory. I'm not saying that's true for everyone, but it's very true for me.
#16
Firstly music theory is a way of describing and analysing how music works. It's not a rulebook that you have to stick by.

Secondly, you asked for which scale is used in a song. You received this answer and the key. We merely assumed that you knew about the relationship between the key of a song and the scale that's used in it.

I'm not sure what answer you're looking for if you want to use a particular scale, and not play using music theory.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#17
Knowing when to use the right scale can be a bit tricky, I admit, most people are not fully aware when to use harmonic minor or phrygian or whatever other scale.

However staying in key is the most basic skill every person playing an instrument should have. Even if Slash didn't know a lot of theory, he still knew how to stay in key. Same with Dave Mustaine - if you listen to his solos, theres a lot of weird notes in there, but he still stayed in key.

Rather than being offended you should take our advice and brush up your theory, because it seems like you've just learned few scalar shapes but omitted the very basics. The fact that you say that theory will hinder your playing actually tells us that you know no theory at all and have no idea what it is. As said before, it's not a set of rules that you have to follow, it's just another thing that will benefit your playing. Do you think Marty Friedman could write the solo from Tornado of Souls without the understanding of theory? Could the greatest classical composers write anything as good as their compositions without knowledge of theory? A big, fat no.
Last edited by piszczel at Sep 26, 2010,
#18
Wow TS you've got a mighty big chip on your shoulder. I don't see the point in dismissing theory - you've stated that you don't need it because (INSERT NAME) doesn't know any...

But when you think about it, if you knew your theory you wouldn't have to ask questions like the one you asked, so you've already limited yourself by not knowing theory. If no-one told you the key what would you do then? You'd have to sit down and figure out the THEORY of it all by yourself before you could work it out. Don't limit yourself dude, it's not cool to be ignorant.
#19
Quote by \o/
Wow TS you've got a mighty big chip on your shoulder. I don't see the point in dismissing theory - you've stated that you don't need it because (INSERT NAME) doesn't know any...

But when you think about it, if you knew your theory you wouldn't have to ask questions like the one you asked, so you've already limited yourself by not knowing theory. If no-one told you the key what would you do then? You'd have to sit down and figure out the THEORY of it all by yourself before you could work it out. Don't limit yourself dude, it's not cool to be ignorant.


props for this answer
#20
Blaming theory for stale playing? Right.
i don't know why i feel so dry
#21
heres the part where i state my opinion. seeing as the thread question has been answered and i read this argument about mr. saul hudson. I personally find him very over-rated and bland. as for reading his autobiography....thats...cool?
#22
Quote by BlackDog55
heres the part where i state my opinion. seeing as the thread question has been answered and i read this argument about mr. saul hudson. I personally find him very over-rated and bland. as for reading his autobiography....thats...cool?


Nice opinion mate.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
Well i see that everyone here has their opinion that i should learn theory. TO be completely honest, i actually took eight years of formal lessons, starting when i was 5 years old and ending when i was 13. This had it's pros and cons, as does everything in this world. Pros: guitar was planted in my brain at my most developmental age, making most parts of it very natural for me now and giving me a head start on muscle memory. Cons: bad habits that i didn't know were bad at 5 years old were also planted in my brain that i later had to relearn. The problem with lessons at such a young age was this: i was learning theory, some of which i retained, and some of which i never attempted to retain, when i wanted to be learning how to play steppenwolf and ac/dc and guns n roses. Instead, i was learning scales and keys and exercises and put almost no effort into any of it. There was onc ea time when i could read sheet music fluently, but now i have to write the names of notes above them, and much prefer tabs, as i can read those fluently.

However, now i really wish i had paid attention and retained all of the theory, because now it would be useful. I am relearning theory in my own way, i just didn't want to have to describe it to everyone, just to be told i was doing it wrong, or the hard way, or anything. I am learning songs and learning scales that go with them. i don't care about note names up the scale, just fret positions, as i can transpose in my head without note names. I don't want to sit down and read about theory for hours, or really much at all because it would just go back to the days of lessons where it would become incredibly boring and cause me to become uninspired with the instrument again. instead, i want to slowly do it my own way to keep my inspiration flowing.

Now, if any of that made any sense, then congratulations on being as screwed up in the head as i am. I would like to apologize to everyone for being a bitter ass on the subject, but i have been sick of people telling me i'm going about theory wrong. In the end, Slash did learn theory, but only from picking it up on the way, similar to what i am doing, only his way was much slower. what i don't want to do is become John Petrucci. Don't get me wrong, John is one of my favorite guitarists, but mostly for his speed and composition. Slash, on the other hand, is one of my favorite player for his deel he puts into music. In my opinion, Petrucci puts no feel in his music, only thought. Everything about his playing is composed ahead of time and played the exact same every time, which is the opposite of how i play.

So in a way, i kinda do have chip in my shoulder about theory.
#24
It seems that your first teacher didn't teach you the things you wanted to learn, although I have a hard time grasping the concept of a 7 year old jamming out Guns and Roses songs

If you have any questions here, feel free to ask. All those goals you have can be achieved through learning music theory.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#25
If i knew about Guitar Pro and text tabs at that time, i could have played the rhythm parts of the songs. Then again, i still can't play his solos xD

I do have another question though:

What key is NIB by Black Sabbath in? It sounds and feels to me like Em and the pentatonic Minor scale seems to fit it, although if i use that it seems like Tony also adds some blue notes. Am i right?
#26
I don't have a guitar on me, but going off this tab;

http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/b/black_sabbath/nib_ver3_tab.htm

It's in Eb minor. All the riffs use Eb minor penatonic, which is really just a selected portion from the full minor scale.

In practice, I wouldn't be surprised if he used the Eb blues scale over it too, that's pretty typical of Black Sabbath.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#27
I tune to Eb and forget that i do...so to me it was E. xD but i wanted to make sure my ears weren't deceiving me and that the pentatonic scale did fit over it.

One last question, where can i find some good finger exercises to help me with solos? My band currently wants to cover these songs:

NIB - Black Sabbath
Holy Wars...The Punishment Due - megadeth
Medusa - Anthrax
The Day That Never Comes - Metallica
Crazy Train - Ozzy

I will improv about 90% of the NIB solo, as i am comfortable with that speed and scale, but the rest of the songs are going to be a problem, especially since 3 of them are from the Big Four. I plan to improv about half of crazy train's solo and the second three fills, but i need some more speed to do that.
#28
I don't see why you need speed to improv. For finger exercises check the electric guitar forum where there's thousands of them.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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