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#1
Imagine that a man is robbing a bank. In the process of escaping, a pregnant woman gets in his way. The man kills the pregnant woman. The woman has no living relatives and no friends. Unknown to the man, he is the father of the child. This fact comes out before the trial.

Murder, double murder, murder/abortion, or murder + manslaughter?


Edit: my own opinion: To avoid unneeded complication (lawl) let's say it's 3 months. I'd say it's abortion because, unless he shot her right in the womb, the mother would die first. Making him the legal guardian of the potentio-baby. Meaning that he, as the guardian of an in vitro thing, ought to be able to decide to abort it. Clearly, he already decided to abort it when he shot the mother.

Sorted.
Discuss.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
Last edited by Vornik at Oct 1, 2010,
#2
Legally or morally? I need to know what angle to approach this from.
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#4
Legally or morally? Well that presupposes that there's a difference, Mr.Conservative.

Morally. Which has legal implications.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#5
Why did he kill her if he met her in the past?
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#8
^You stick to my own ideas.
Quote by GbAdimDb5m7
Why did he kill her if he met her in the past?

She dyed her hair and he was drunk both times they met.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#10
How is this different from the other thread?
This is why I don't like arguing on the internet.
Quote by damian_91
If only you could back that statement up.
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No need to, absurd generalizations aren't my thing.
#11
Quote by Vornik
Legally or morally? Well that presupposes that there's a difference, Mr.Conservative.

Morally. Which has legal implications.


Morals and law are different things. You don't go to jail for having bad morals.
#12
Quote by Vornik
Legally or morally? Well that presupposes that there's a difference, Mr.Conservative.

Since you aren't a lawyer, I doubt you know what the legality would be.

So morally.

Legally, I believe it's second degree murder, but depending on where you are it could change.

Like I said in the other thread, it depends on whether she intended to keep it; if she planned to have an abortion, it's single murder, if she wanted to keep it, then double. Either way, the guy isn't going to see daylight the rest of his life (if caught), so it doesn't really matter.
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#13
Quote by Zombee
How is this different from the other thread?


This.

It still comes down to whether you count the unborn child as a person or not.
Either way it's a murder charge.
Oh f*ck it,
I'm gonna have a party.
I had the blankest year,
I watched life turn into a TV show.
It was totally weird.
#14
I'm gonna report this.

Call me a killjoy all you want, but its way too similar to the other thread, and this was blatantly made after reading the other one.

RIP Tom Searle.
#15
Quote by MH400
I'm gonna report this.

Call me a killjoy all you want, but its way too similar to the other thread.



I agree, this is the same like the other one.
Quote by tattyreagh
He's the hero The Pit deserves but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. GbAdimDb5m7.


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#16
Quote by Zombee
How is this different from the other thread?

It's different than the other thread because
a) the baby had no family other than the murder and the mother
b) if the mother dies, the murder is the babies only relative
c) as the father, he may have a say in whether or not the baby should be aborted, particularly if the mother is dead.

Retroactive surrogate abortion.
Quote by MH400
I'm gonna report this.

Call me a killjoy all you want, but its way too similar to the other thread, and this was blatantly made after reading the other one.


Oh shit, did I take up valuable pit space at 2am? Oh me oh my oh my oh me.

It's sad that you can't appreciate the subtlety of the question.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
Last edited by Vornik at Oct 1, 2010,
#17
Quote by Vornik
It's different than the other thread because
a) the baby had no family other than the murder and the mother
b) if the mother dies, the murder is the babies only relative
c) as the father, he may have a say in whether or not the baby should be aborted, particularly if the mother is dead.

Retroactive surrogate abortion.


It is just an extension of the other thread, you took the other thread and made it complicated.
It's like if I open a thread:"What would happen if I got hit on the head?"
And some made a thread:"What would happen If I got hit on the head by a baseball bat while sitting on the bench playing cards with my grandmother who has no other relatives?
Quote by tattyreagh
He's the hero The Pit deserves but not the one it needs right now. So, we'll hunt him, because he can take it. Because he's not our hero. He's a silent guardian. A watchful protector. GbAdimDb5m7.


Free Jani92jani

Free Will Swanson
#18
Quote by Vornik
It's different than the other thread because
a) the baby had no family other than the murder and the mother
b) if the mother dies, the murder is the babies only relative
c) as the father, he may have a say in whether or not the baby should be aborted, particularly if the mother is dead.

Retroactive surrogate abortion.
Oh shit, did I take up valuable pit space at 2am? Oh me oh my oh my oh me.

It's sad that you can't appreciate the subtlety of the question.


Also it's the SUPER version of mentioned first thread
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#19
Quote by GbAdimDb5m7
It is just an extension of the other thread, you took the other thread and made it complicated.
It's like if I open a thread:"What would happen if I got hit on the head?"
And some made a thread:"What would happen If I got hit on the head by a baseball bat while sitting on the bench playing cards with my grandmother who has no other relatives?

I don't know, what would happen? I guess you'd report yourself.



Anyways since no one else is answering, I think it counts as a murder/abortion.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#20
Quote by Vornik
It's different than the other thread because
a) the baby had no family other than the murder and the mother
b) if the mother dies, the murder is the babies only relative
c) as the father, he may have a say in whether or not the baby should be aborted, particularly if the mother is dead.


Even if this was allowed, there's no way a prosecutor would let a man call abortion on a child he didn't know was his just so he could get a murder charge dropped.
Oh f*ck it,
I'm gonna have a party.
I had the blankest year,
I watched life turn into a TV show.
It was totally weird.
#22
I don't think it makes a difference that the sprog was his own.

Murder.
Populus vult decipi. Decipiatur.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
It's can be a contraction and genitive case.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
If you cut down on these costs students won't learn so well, effecting the "quality"...
#23
Quote by soXlittleXtimeX
Even if this was allowed, there's no way a prosecutor would let a man call abortion on a child he didn't know was his just so he could get a murder charge dropped.

So... presumably you agree with this hypothetical prosecutor?

What if he did know it was his?
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#24
Enough with my trolling on this thread. Shat just became serious.

@ Vørnik

How can it count as murder/abortion?

It would be double murder since abortion is only abortion is the first so many weeks.
Let's say that this little monster in her belly is 6 months old, the term abortion would be irrelevant nay?
Quote by God
I'm Omnipotent, which is to say that my dick eats both meat and plants


Ronnie and Steele, Rockstars today aint half as real.

R.I.P. Ronnie James Dio & Peter Steele
#25
Quote by JY-Rasputin

It would be double murder since abortion is only abortion is the first so many weeks.
Let's say that this little monster in her belly is 6 months old, the term abortion would be irrelevant nay?


"Abortion is the termination of a pregnancy by the removal or expulsion from the uterus of a fetus or embryo, resulting in or caused by its death."

http://books.google.com/books?id=KiRHpRl7TjsC&pg=PA173&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false

The term doesn't have anything to do with legal constraints on when it's permissible. If it's done at eight months and twenty days, it's still an abortion so long as it hasn't already left the uterus.
#26
Quote by JY-Rasputin
Enough with my trolling on this thread. Shat just became serious.

@ Vørnik

How can it count as murder/abortion?

It would be double murder since abortion is only abortion is the first so many weeks.
Let's say that this little monster in her belly is 6 months old, the term abortion would be irrelevant nay?

I dunno, would it? To avoid unneeded complication (lawl) let's say it's 3 months. I'd say it's abortion because, unless he shot her right in the womb, the mother would die first. Making him the legal guardian of the potentio-baby. Meaning that he, as the guardian of an in vitro thing, ought to be able to decide to abort it. Clearly, he already decided to abort it when he shot the mother.

Sorted.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#27
murder + Sgt. manslaughter
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¨°º¤ø„¸¸„ø¤º°¨
#28
Quote by Vornik
So... presumably you agree with this hypothetical prosecutor?

What if he did know it was his?


Then he'd still have a weak case. It's not like he could prove that if he told her, "Get an abortion!" that she'd happily agree seeing as how it's her choice in the end.

That being said why would he even shoot the mother to his child in the first place? He'd probably be robbing the bank to get money to raise the kid in that instance...
Oh f*ck it,
I'm gonna have a party.
I had the blankest year,
I watched life turn into a TV show.
It was totally weird.
#29
Quote by soXlittleXtimeX
Then he'd still have a weak case. It's not like he could prove that if he told her, "Get an abortion!" that she'd happily agree seeing as how it's her choice in the end.

It's not her choice once she's dead. Then it's his choice!

That being said why would he even shoot the mother to his child in the first place? He'd probably be robbing the bank to get money to raise the kid in that instance...

But if he aborts the kid, he can use the money to buy bullets and cover legal fees. Now it appears that he even has a rational reason to abort the kid. But he can only abort it if the mother dies. So what you're suggesting is that the murder is rational.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
Last edited by Vornik at Oct 1, 2010,
#30
Double Murder on the First Degree would be my verdict.. Life without parole the sentence.
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
#32
Quote by chaoticfables
How is it manslaughter, TS..?

Huwha? It isn't, I said it was murder/abortion.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#33
Quote by chaoticfables
How is it manslaughter, TS..?

If he didn't know intend the killing of the foetus.
EDIT:
Quote by Vornik
Huwha? It isn't, I said it was murder/abortion.
1st post
Populus vult decipi. Decipiatur.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
It's can be a contraction and genitive case.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
If you cut down on these costs students won't learn so well, effecting the "quality"...
#34
Single murder.
How the **** can an unborn baby be killed and accounted for for being murder? It's the same as with a abortion, therefore it's just murder of the woman.
I do not want to have a signature anymore.
#35
^^^
Quote by Vornik
Murder, double murder, murder/abortion, or murder + manslaughter?

ohaithere
Last edited by chaoticfables at Oct 1, 2010,
#36
Quote by RDSElite
Single murder.
How the **** can an unborn baby be killed and accounted for for being murder? It's the same as with a abortion, therefore it's just murder of the woman.


Life begins at conception for some people, when you get born you can go **** yourself..

Some jury will feel the same.
I put a dollar in a change machine. Nothing changed.
#37
Quote by FrenchyFungus
If he didn't know intend the killing of the foetus.

3 months pregnant+, the woman is sure to have a medium sized lump sticking out of her belly. oh well, I guess that's just me.
#38
Quote by chaoticfables
3 months pregnant+, the woman is sure to have a medium sized lump sticking out of her belly. oh well, I guess that's just me.

It's quite hard to tell if some people are "with child" or "with steak slice".
Populus vult decipi. Decipiatur.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
It's can be a contraction and genitive case.

Quote by Mistress_Ibanez
If you cut down on these costs students won't learn so well, effecting the "quality"...
#39
Quote by chaoticfables
^

ohaithere

Um... That was quite obviously a provocative list of options for you to consider before making up your own mind.
Quote by BeefWellington

what's the point in being "philiosophical"?

Interesting question...
#40
Quote by Vornik
Um... That was quite obviously a provocative list of options for you to consider before making up your own mind.

The other three seem to be completely legit options
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