#1
Do they have to contain all the notes for those chords? Or could you omit the 5th or for 11th and 13th the other notes before them? I hope that makes sense if not just say because I need to expand my chord vocabulary.

Thanks
"Could everyone please stop sounding like everyone else that's trying to sound like meshuggah?"

-Emil Werstler

Quote by damian_91
Kurt Cobain, the best guitarist to ever live.

#3
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Well, you could, but it sounds a lot better if you don't...


So what would the key notes be then?
For 9th would I use the 7th as well?
For 11th and 13th dhat notes are usually left out while still being the chord?
"Could everyone please stop sounding like everyone else that's trying to sound like meshuggah?"

-Emil Werstler

Quote by damian_91
Kurt Cobain, the best guitarist to ever live.

Last edited by brandon2784 at Oct 2, 2010,
#4
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Well, you could, but it sounds a lot better if you don't...


Absolutely not true. Good luck trying to play 13th chords on guitar. That would involve playing a root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. Ideally you want to include the 3rd and 7th in any voicing you want to perform, as well as any tension notes (9, 11, 13). Roots and 5ths are generally optional, because they don't really affect the sound of the chord. They are very harmonically neutral. (Altered fifths excluded) The rules of voicing chords vary depending on the chord scale being used at the moment and the harmony.
#5
Quote by Windwaker
Absolutely not true. Good luck trying to play 13th chords on guitar. That would involve playing a root, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 9th, 11th, and 13th. Ideally you want to include the 3rd and 7th in any voicing you want to perform, as well as any tension notes (9, 11, 13). Roots and 5ths are generally optional, because they don't really affect the sound of the chord. They are very harmonically neutral. (Altered fifths excluded) The rules of voicing chords vary depending on the chord scale being used at the moment and the harmony.


Say E minor to keep it simple?
Also no harmonies for now just trying to keep it simple.
So optional roots and 5ths? But if there is no root then couldn't it be another chord entirely?
"Could everyone please stop sounding like everyone else that's trying to sound like meshuggah?"

-Emil Werstler

Quote by damian_91
Kurt Cobain, the best guitarist to ever live.

Last edited by brandon2784 at Oct 2, 2010,
#6
When you have a C9 chord for example, you have your standard C E G notes, but then you whack in a D on top. If it was C13, change that D up to an A. You just stick the embellishment up higher than the other notes.

You don't need to add the 7th, 9th etc if you want to add the 13th. That would just sound muddy and horrible.
Marshall amplifiers are the truest purveyors of rock and roll known to man.

"And give a man an amplifier and a synthesizer, and he doesn't become whoever, you know. He doesn't become us."

Holy crap, check this out!
#7
well...technically you can add any notes you want if you can figure out what the chord's called, but it may not sound the best. there are some general rules to this kind of harmony to distinguish what's dissonant and what's consanent, check out hal leonard's harmony and theory: a comprehensive source for all musicians.

just a few tips on extended chords:
-adding extensions don't change the chord's function (D7 and D13 are both the V chords in the key of G)
-you can adda major 9th to any 7th chord or triad
-chords with major 3ds use #11 (you'd use Lydian over this)
-chords with minor 3rds use 11 (usable with any minor mode of the major scale)
-chords without 3rds are "suspended 4" chords (in common practice, the octave doesn't make a difference)
-you can then add a major 13 after the 7th, 9th, and 11th are there
-you can add a 9th, 11th, or 13th to a major or minor triad and call it an "add" chord, like "Cmajor add13"
-you can have a chord missing a note if you adjust the name like "Cmajor13 (no 9)" is all the notes in a Cmajor13 chord except without the 9
-you can break some rules if you like dissonance

hope that helped

edit: oh and im not an expert so if i got something wrong or if any1 has something to add go ahead
#8
Quote by seemeel
When you have a C9 chord for example, you have your standard C E G notes, but then you whack in a D on top. If it was C13, change that D up to an A. You just stick the embellishment up higher than the other notes.

You don't need to add the 7th, 9th etc if you want to add the 13th. That would just sound muddy and horrible.


Your example of the C9 isn't a C9, but a Cadd9. For a 9 chord, we need to have the b7, too. So, our C9 should have C, E, G, Bb and D.

For chords such as the x13, as someone else already mentioned, we'll probably end up dropping notes, such as the 5th and 13th, but it'll still have the b7, 9 and the 13. If you remove the other notes, as you suggest, and just add the 13th to a regular triad, it's an add chord.
#9
Quote by brandon2784
Do they have to contain all the notes for those chords? Or could you omit the 5th or for 11th and 13th the other notes before them? I hope that makes sense if not just say because I need to expand my chord vocabulary.

Thanks

Try to keep the root third seventh and upper extension.
If you can put the fifth in there then do that. The lower extensions (In the 13th that would be the 11th and 9th and in the 11th it would be the 9th) are often the first to leave out.
The next to leave out is you have to drop something is the fifth.

If you leave out the seventh then it's an add chord not an extended chord. The difference between these two chord types is the inclusion of the seventh. Here's some things to think about.
* Hence C9 is a dominant seventh chord with a ninth (C E G B♭D)
*While Cadd9 is a C major triad with an added ninth (C E G D).
*Csus2 is when the third is dropped and the D is included (C D G). When the third is not present the ninth is referred to as a fourth (it doesn't matter if the D voiced a second above the root or a ninth above the root - without the third it is a second).
*C7sus2 is the same thing but with a dominant seventh (C D G B♭ Notice this is an inversion of a Gadd11 which would use G as the root instead of C but contains the same notes.
*The base triad and seventh chord give the chord it's character. Extensions and additions are typically colour tones that are "decorative" in purpose or a part of an upper melodic line.
*The fifth is most important when it is altered. The perfect fifth is the first harmonic of the root note that is a different pitch class. It is one of the most dominant overtones. It's function is really to reinforce the chords root note. It is present in the root and so can be left out without missing too much, if it's altered though then you need it.

But yeah you can get by with leaving notes out. The above provides some rough guidelines. If you don't have specific sheet music then let your ear be the judge as to what notes of the chord are essential to the character of the piece you're playing.

Best of Luck to you.

[EDIT] If there's no root then it could be a different chord entirely but that's okay if it's functioning like a full chord you could look it as a different chord "substituting" for the original chord, or as a "rootless chord". A common example is the dim triad.

So if you were in C and you play a "rootless" G7 (G B D F) resolving to a C major triad. You could also view that "rootless" G7 as a Bdim triad (B D F) and it would make just as much sense to name it that way. But it would still ACT like a dom7 in the key of C. The tritone in that dim chord is shared and would resolve to the major C chord in the same way.

You could call it substituting a viidim for a V7 chord or you could call it a rootless V7 either way it's the exact same thing achieved by slightly different thought process.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Oct 2, 2010,
#11
Quote by Sean0913
20T Nailed it.
Yep, I'm not even going to bother saying anything because it would just be redundant.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#12
Quick question, people have mentioned the 11th being part of the 13th chord. I have never played it that way and was actually taught that the 13th was R 3 5 b7 9 13. To include the 11th would be a 13add11.

Just wondering if I was taught wrong?
Last edited by Quintex at Oct 2, 2010,
#13
Quote by Quintex
Quick question, people keep mentioning the 11th being part of the 13th chord. I have never played it that way and was actually taught that the 13th was R 3 5 b7 9 13. To include the 11th would be a 13add11.

Just wondering if I was taught wrong?
A fully voiced 13th chord includes the 11th. It's just pretty uncommon to have a fully voiced 13th chord and one of the first pitches to get thrown out is the 11th.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#14
Quote by food1010
A fully voiced 13th chord includes the 11th. It's just pretty uncommon to have a fully voiced 13th chord and one of the first pitches to get thrown out is the 11th.

yipyip, and if im right, this would be called a 13(no 11) chord
#15
Quote by TMVATDI
yipyip, and if im right, this would be called a 13(no 11) chord



No, it would be just called a 13th in the real world. The only time you see a lot of "no" chords is in the triad side of things. With extended chord voicings, its generally expected that a 5th will probably not be present, as its function isn't exactly harmonic in an extended sense..but fills out the root.

Best,

Sean
#16
Quote by Sean0913
No, it would be just called a 13th in the real world. The only time you see a lot of "no" chords is in the triad side of things. With extended chord voicings, its generally expected that a 5th will probably not be present, as its function isn't exactly harmonic in an extended sense..but fills out the root.

Best,

Sean

but doesn't that screw up communication between musicians? like if u tell some1 to play a 13 chord they could just play the full 13th but the song u wrote doesn't include an 11th, maybe not on guitar because i dont think there's enough strings, but on piano or something it could happen
#17
Quote by TMVATDI
but doesn't that screw up communication between musicians? like if u tell some1 to play a 13 chord they could just play the full 13th but the song u wrote doesn't include an 11th, maybe not on guitar because i dont think there's enough strings, but on piano or something it could happen


hey, if you want to label C G# Db A as Cmaj13(no3)(#5)(no7)(b9)(no11), be my guest.

if you're just playing chords, i don't see how it would really matter. depending on the voicing, of course.

and if you're really that anal about it, couldn't you just tell other musicians not to play the 11th? chances are you'd show them the voicing anyway (either that or it'd be on paper).
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#18
Quote by AeolianWolf
hey, if you want to label C G# Db A as Cmaj13(no3)(#5)(no7)(b9)(no11), be my guest.

if you're just playing chords, i don't see how it would really matter. depending on the voicing, of course.

and if you're really that anal about it, couldn't you just tell other musicians not to play the 11th? chances are you'd show them the voicing anyway (either that or it'd be on paper).

u have a point :P