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#81
Originally posted by russiaininvader
If i were to compare two guitar speakers that had almost the same specs, but made from 2 different companies, could they still sound totally different?

Also, its possible to mix two different 12" speakers in a 2X12 cab to give a unique sound? thanks

lastly, for what was talked about trying to get the speaker rating close to what your amp is, how close do you have to be, is 60 close enough to 50, also, should i be trying to match the speakers RMS to my amp, or the max handling? thanks again

It depends on what specs are different really. Also the stiffness of the speaker and other mechanical factors play a part in the tone.

Yes however be warned that if you get speakers that don't fit together tonally you will get "fighting" and it will sound WORSE than two of the same speaker. Normally you want one bright speaker and one bassy speaker to equal eachother out. (Like a tweeter and woofer combo if you will.) However there is no way ot tell if the speakers will work together.

I don't believe that you need the power rating close to what you expect. I mean look at EV speakers extremely popular and are rated 200W each, people have these in 2 4x12 cabs and they still sound tighter than ever. Unless we are talking active speakers?
For sale: Early 1985 Ibanez AH10 (Allan Holdsworth signature model) PM for details
#82
Originally posted by russiaininvader
If i were to compare two guitar speakers that had almost the same specs, but made from 2 different companies, could they still sound totally different?
Also, its possible to mix two different 12" speakers in a 2X12 cab to give a unique sound? thanks
lastly, for what was talked about trying to get the speaker rating close to what your amp is, how close do you have to be, is 60 close enough to 50, also, should i be trying to match the speakers RMS to my amp, or the max handling? thanks again

Companys often issue the same spec to different speaker manufacturers so that if one company fails to deliver then they are not left without speakers, in the UK Carlsbro Powertone speakers were supplied by both Fane & Mckenzie, both performed identical.
You can widen the audio response from you guitar or Keyboard by putting a linen centre domed 12" and a second 12" with a parasitic cone in the middle, speakers with twin cones (parasitic) can reproduce frequencies in excess of 14khz it is advisable to have speakers of the same resonance though, ie both with linen surrounds.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#83
How hard is it to replace tolex? i know its going to be hard, real hard, but i can either change the scarred balck tolex out, or spray paint over it. any suggestions?
#84
Would it be best for a 2X12 to use an old 15" speaker in the back for it to breath, or is a big whole in the back best, OR does having a smaller hole/slot effect the sound on a guitar cab?

When using monster cable inside the cab, doesnt that just make the input jack the weak part, or the wire going to the head, or the wires inside? lol

Power freak you sure that the wattage doesnt have to be close between the speaker and cab, because i coulda sworn bubonic said it did
Last edited by russiaininvader at Apr 10, 2005,
#85
Originally posted by russiaininvader
If i were to compare two guitar speakers that had almost the same specs, but made from 2 different companies, could they still sound totally different?

Also, its possible to mix two different 12" speakers in a 2X12 cab to give a unique sound? thanks

lastly, for what was talked about trying to get the speaker rating close to what your amp is, how close do you have to be, is 60 close enough to 50, also, should i be trying to match the speakers RMS to my amp, or the max handling? thanks again
Mixing is okay, but going with different manufacturers gets a little less predictable.

I would keep each speaker system consistent, meaning if you have a wire going from your output to a cabinet (or to a single plug in the cabinet), all of the drivers that are connected to that output are of the same exact specs and manufacturer.

Here's an example from my experience that may help:

Initially, I wired two 10" Peavey Scorpion speakers (a 4-ohm Parallel pair) as follows:

O=
||
O

What happened was, the speaker that had the two lead wires connected (a theoretically kosher design), actually carried less impedance than the other speaker, and consequently started to deteriorate. Thankfully, I noticed and fixed the problem, and the pair is now wired as follows:

O--
||
O--

Even two identical speakers, probably riding down the conveyor belt together at the same factory, and shipped in the same truck, carried different impedance because of a mere 5 inches of wire.

The one with the lower impedance got torn up.



So my advice is to keep the impedance as consistant as possible, especially on a single circuit.

If you have two different kinds of speakers, for a unique sound as you say (not a bad idea), I would suggest wiring it like this:

Speakers types A and B

---A----A---

---B----B---

(keep in mind that this diagram is highly generalized, it is still open to parallel, series or hybrid circuitry.)

Keep that impedance consistant on the circuit or you will pay for it!
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#86
Originally posted by russiaininvader
Would it be best for a 2X12 to use an old 15" speaker in the back for it to breath, or is a big whole in the back best, OR does having a smaller hole/slot effect the sound on a guitar cab?

When using monster cable inside the cab, doesnt that just make the input jack the weak part, or the wire going to the head, or the wires inside? lol

Power freak you sure that the wattage doesnt have to be close between the speaker and cab, because i coulda sworn bubonic said it did
Wattage is not as important as impedance.

You can put 30W speakers on a 300W amp safely.

The problem is that going too far off the mark will blow something:

Big amp + small speakers (used irresponsibly) means the speakers will deteriorate...

Surrounds will break away, the cone will show wear, eventually the driver just falls apart (or blows up on you very quickly.)

Small amp + big speakers means the speakers MAY demand too much juice from the amp, and you may blow the amp, if the DC (direct current) signal from the distorted amp doesn't fry the delicate wires in the speakers first...or both.

It's recommended to use exactly matched if not smaller speakers because you're better off frying speakers than amps, if you fry anything (speakers are cheaper), and speakers will let you know when they are in pain. They sound like shit. Amps don't warn you, they just stop working and you smell something hot.

Monster Cable: is a fad product. A good product, I can't argue with that, but a product whose virtues are exaggerated by the manufacturer and the retail industry (and why not, it's expensive cable.)

Good stuff if you can afford it, but considering you're connecting gold-plated, cryogrenically treated Star Trek wire to a big-assed glob of lead (solder), it's pretty pointless, if you think about it.

Solder is a poor conductor.

(Poor condutor) - Great conductor - (Poor conductor)

Unless you get gold solder (does this even exist?) and wire every component in your amp with gold, monster cable is a wasted effort.

..but it's cheap enough (relatively) that it's up to you. I wouldn't worry with it. Go to Home Depot and buy some 8-gauge electrical wire for putting a chandelier in your fourier. The difference in performance is going to be negligible.

And if 8-guage monster cable at $8 a foot (or whatever) is 3% better than 8-gauge electrical wire at $.20 a foot, go with 6-gauge electrical wire at $.50 a foot.

Want more performance, better conductivity? Go up a gauge.

Porting: I can't stress enough that porting is only important for certain applications, namely bass or keyboard cabs, high-end monitors or full-range PA speakers, etc. Things that are going to have a lot of bass energy happening.

Their purpose is to allow the cab to breathe. If all you're doing is building a guitar cab, think about the way Fender's classic combos are built:

Amp on top, wired in a rectangular box with 2 X 12" speakers with a big-ass hole in back.

Fender combos sound sweet!! They have no port.

Granted, porting may allow you to have a more accurate, modern or "full spectrum" sound. There are advantages, and certainly the Fender cabs have some holes in the frequency response (hell, they were built fairly cheaply.)

Still, if it aint broke, as they say....

If you do port, refer to John Swift's info on that. He knows his stuff.

"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#87
How hard is it to replace tolex? i know its going to be hard, real hard, but i can either change the scarred balck tolex out, or spray paint over it. any suggestions?

i posted that further up on the page, no one answered it
#88
Originally posted by WishIHadAGibson
How hard is it to replace tolex? i know its going to be hard, real hard, but i can either change the scarred balck tolex out, or spray paint over it. any suggestions?i posted that further up on the page, no one answered it
The first job is to get the old stuff off and get back to a good surface.
A good water based wood adhesive is suitable and can be applied with a paint brush, roll out any air pockets or scrape them out with a straight edge.
If you have not done it before it is just trial and error
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#90
Does anyone have a picture of a fully finished cabinet they've made?
Member #10 Of The Black Tooth Grin: Dimebag Memorial Club. PM Narmi To Join
#92
Originally posted by GNR4EVER
Does anyone have a picture of a fully finished cabinet they've made?
I'd post mine if somebody told me how to do it!

G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#93
Th only way I know to post a pic is to get an image hosting server (www.photobucket.com is a good one) and put (Invalid img) after the link
Member #10 Of The Black Tooth Grin: Dimebag Memorial Club. PM Narmi To Join
#95
Originally posted by russiaininvader
please can some one tell me if a 60watt speaker is close enough to a 50 watt amp if the impedences matched?!?!?
Yes it is if it is the specific type of loudspeaker for what you intend to use it for (if it is for bass then it must be a bass speaker)
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#97
i have a fender deville 4-10 amp and i have been thinking of making a 2-12 extension cab what would be the correct wattage and ohms for the speakers i need?
Imagine All The People...
#98
Originally posted by jigamuf
i have a fender deville 4-10 amp and i have been thinking of making a 2-12 extension cab what would be the correct wattage and ohms for the speakers i need?
If your amp has an extension speaker output it will tell you the required impedence of the extension speaker cab.
At a guess I would say that your 4x10s are 8 ohms each and are wired in series parallel giving an 8 ohm load, wiring another pair of 8 ohm speakers in series and connecting them via the extension socket will give a total impedence of around 5.3 ohms your amp should be quite happy with that.
I would go for the lowest wattage speakers that you can find, these will require less enrgy to drive them therefore producing more sound (DBs) level.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#99
so how does 2 12" celestion greenbacks sound?
Imagine All The People...
#100
Originally posted by jigamuf
so how does 2 12" celestion greenbacks sound?
do you know the wattage and size of voice coil?
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#102
Originally posted by jigamuf
25 watts and 1.75 diameter voice coil
Confirm obout the impedence if it is ok I would go for it.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#103
all the other speakers in the amp are 8 ohm
Imagine All The People...
#104
8 Ohm is generally a safe bet. Nobody really uses 16 Ohm (that I'm aware of) and 4 Ohm is usually ok, but you have to be a bit more careful.

I'm actually thinking about building a subwoofer for a home theatre system.

Hey John Swift, do you have any specs on that kind of equipment? I was thinking about using a 4 ohm, 15" bass speaker in a ported cab, mainly because that's what I've got and I wouldn't have to spend any money.

Thanks.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#105
Originally posted by Bubonic Chronic
8 Ohm is generally a safe bet. Nobody really uses 16 Ohm (that I'm aware of) and 4 Ohm is usually ok, but you have to be a bit more careful.

I don't know about the bass playing community but you can get lots of 16 ohm speakers. In fact they are very popular because people believe that using more of the output transformers secondary coils equals better tone. (for valve amps of course.) This isn't really true, its more to do with the differing inductances and other specs of the speaker at differing impedances. I tend to find 8 ohms the best for most guitar applications.

For sale: Early 1985 Ibanez AH10 (Allan Holdsworth signature model) PM for details
#106
I'm actually thinking of using a sealed box for my sub.

Basically, I want to tear apart the old one and use the drivers for something else, make it more flexible.

I've been reading info from a great site:

DIY Sub Site
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#108
guys, an insane way to build a subwoofer, is to get like a piece of PVC pipe, or whatever the blueish green kind is, thats 12 inches, and mount the sub inside one end, make it about 4 or 5 feet tall, and put a cap in the end with a 2"diameter 4 inch long piece of PVC pipe sticking through, make it air tight except for that one port, this is the best way to make a sub IMO and its insane bass response at even low wattage
#109

metallicaman80 wrote on 04-20-2005 02:16 AM:
Hey man, I have a Mosvalve MV962 poweramp (Ebay, o yea!) and my preamp should be here later. But how would I mount that speaker to wood on the frame? A diagram might help. Thanks, man.
Good question for the thread, I will post a copy of this reply there so others can learn, too.

The process of attaching a driver to a cabinet is a simple one, really, and common sense wisdom applies absolutely in this case:

Build it solid!

That's really all I can say. Beyond that is all cosmetic, aside from the fact that you should seal it so that air does not escape.

Here's a diagram to show you how to mount the thing structurally:



You want a stud at the top and bottom because these will provide the stability for the cone. You want to use at least 1.75" screws.

The cone should have eight holes for screws, use two at the top and two on the bottom, fastened into the studs. Be sure to drill first, though, with a bit that is slightly smaller than the screw (about as thick as the shaft of the screw minus the threads, maybe a little smaller).

The screws along the sides will not do much for you except to just seal up the hole, this is where the air seal comes in:

DEFINITELY use 3/4 ply because of its rigidity. It is capable of supporting a speaker cone on it's own, but you want to use studs anyway.

Cut the hole with a scroll saw as nearly circular as you can:

Before you cut, put a small screw at the center of intended hole and measure the EXACT diameter of the speaker from one screw hole to another (subtract about 1/4".)

Once you have that measurement (accurate to .25"), tie a piece of twine with a square or slip knot around the screw at the center of your intended circular hold. Now with a ruler, stretch the string out (make sure the knot will not give, hence using a square or slip) and tie a pencil, standard #2 pencil, to the string. You want to the tip of the pencil to hit the ruler at the RADIUS of your circle. Hold the pencil perpendicular to the wood (the string will be at a slight angle) and tie a simple knot to hold the pencil in place (an inch or so above the tip.) Hold the knot in place with a bit of electrical, or even duct tape. Just something sticky that won't let the string move up or down the pencil.

Now move the pencil around perimeter of the circle making sure you keep the pencil perpendicular to the surface. Do it in small arcs and start with light pressure, darkening the circle as you go.

Once the circle is easily visible, drill a hole anywhere in that circumference (inside the line.) Now take your scroll saw and saw around the circumference, trying to gobble up the pencil mark, but ALWAYS ERR ON THE INSIDE OF THE CIRCLE.

The last thing you want is to have a small hole where air can escape, if your circle is a little wiggly in a place and too small, you can always sand it a bit to even it out.

Once you are done sawing, sand around the circumference, evening out the circle.

Seat your driver in that hole. Does it fit snuggly?

If not, sand again, being certain to work harder on the places that are too small.

Repeat as necessary until the speaker fits snug.

Once it fits nicely in the hole, position the screw holes over the studs and fasten two screws in the top stud, and then two in the bottom stud. Put in the other four in whatever order you want.

Seating and properly sealing a driver in a speaker cabinet is a simple matter of good carpentry. No acoustics skills or math required.

Once it's fastened onto your studs, you can caulk around the perimeter (inside the cabinet) if you like. It's not a bad idea, and it can't hurt, so what the hell?


EDIT: Saw the hole before you attach the studs!!!

Duh.

Sawing through studs with a scroll saw is a *****.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

Last edited by Bubonic Chronic at Apr 20, 2005,
#110
Originally posted by metallicaman80
How would you mount the speaker? It's only one speaker.
I won't. The speaker is not capable of producing distortion-free sound below 40 Hz.



You learn something every day.

Oh well, back to the drawing board.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#111
Originally posted by Bubonic Chronic
I'm actually thinking about building a subwoofer for a home theatre system.
Hey John Swift, do you have any specs on that kind of equipment? I was thinking about using a 4 ohm, 15" bass speaker in a ported cab, mainly because that's what I've got and I wouldn't have to spend any money.
Thanks.
Is it a stage or studio 15"? stage would have too hard a suspension for home use.
I going to see if I can copy my cab design disk and send it to you if you like.



PS I've just bought the Line 6 Bass Pod ProXT its a great improvement on the original.
G&L L2500
Squier Affinity Jazz Bass 5
Ashdown RPM pre-amp
Ashdown Little Giant 1000
300 watt 15" powered cab
450 watt 15" powered sub bass cab
2x10 + horn
1x15x10 + horn
#112
Originally posted by John Swift
Is it a stage or studio 15"? stage would have too hard a suspension for home use.
I going to see if I can copy my cab design disk and send it to you if you like.
That's exactly right. It's a stage 15", and much too rigid.

It doesn't have near the excursion it would need, either.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#113
I was wonder where some good websites to buy speakers are. All I can find for 10" bass speakers is Eminence that cost a minimum of $45. I have checked google, ebay, ect.
Winslow
#114
Peavey, Carvin, Marshall, pretty much anyone that makes guitar/bass amps will probably offer bass speakers.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#115
Dudes, dudes!

Sorry to break up the technical mumbo-jumbo (PAINULLY reminds me of 9th grade phisics class where i got a stupid-ass C)

Diagramms and theory are all cool. But WHERE ARE THE PICS? Don't get me wrong, but theory+theory with no pics reminds me our phisics books (in Russian high schools, phisics are comparable to American MIT's... dunno why they make 'em this way) which I didn't understand.

Who wants to build a cabinet, and take us step-by-step thru it's cunstruction, supplying every step with a bunch of theory, "do's" and "dont's" and, ofcourse, a pic?

Like I said, don't get me wrong, I've learned a lot from this thread, but it it *NOT* sufficient for me to put a cab, a bass cab together. I'm not that rich to correct my errors...
#116
Well, this is a community effort. No one here claims to be able to magically endow you with the ability to build great speaker cabinets.

Fact is, guitar and bass cabs are not that difficult to build beyond just good carpentry and some basic electrical pointers. If you just wing it with nothing more than these essentials, you'll have a decent cab. figure in some of the acoustics and such and you'll be able to push your performance to higher levels.

The simplest cab is a sealed chamber. It's not as efficient, but the advantage is that there is no impedance peak where the performance drops off. It's just a smooth decline in performance the lower you go.

So build a relatively large, sealed box (let's say 10 cubic feet) and you'll have a great cab. Put a good speaker in there and you'll be happy.

It's not rocket science, but if you want to add some higher-level Physics (and it is physics, sorry), then you can push the efficiency and decibel levels to greater heights.

Here's a picture for you:
Attachments:
speaker.gif
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#117
Bubonic, sealed design has one major disadvantage: in order to sound good, it has to be large, otherwise it'd resonate beyond any belief. Plus, it wouldn't be as loud, though it would be extremely "punchy". I have concocted an angled port - pretty much the same design they use in Bose, channel the sound in a right way to make the lows, the greatest challenge, defined, clear, and loud. This will allow even a relatively small "box" sound great, if not - i'll build another, with just "basic" porting, which comes down to having a PVX pipe lodged into the cab. I have experimented this way with a 100mm pipe in my custom-made stereo speakers (pretty much highly altered 1977 Fischer speakers), and I was really satisfied with the gain of lower-end response i got.

And bubonic, thanks for the pic, of course, but I'm not 10 What I meant was composing a conclusive guide, like those made for repairing cars.

And thanks for pointing out my mistake. Silly me, having to work mostly with Portuguese now, I made a mistake. We're all grown men (pit excluded) here, no need to reduce yourself to having to point out such nuances.
#118
What I meant was that if you don't know what you're doing and don't want to deal with equations, build a big ass sealed chamber cabinet. A good driver and a solid construction should perform admirably.

Here's what you said:

Originally posted by Bassilo
Sorry to break up the technical mumbo-jumbo (PAINULLY reminds me of 9th grade phisics class where i got a stupid-ass C)
That leads me to believe that you wanted a simple, effective design. Sorry.

As for the porting, all porting methods I'm aware of have an impedence peak. They can be designed well and the impedence peak can be tuned below the actual working frequencies of the speaker, but with a sealed box you get no such peak. Performance just declines smoothly with lower frequency.

It depends on the application and your needs.

It sounds like you know a thing or two yourself. Why don't you write a guide? I don't really have time frankly.


Edit: for bass guitar you don't need to worry about frequencies below 80 Hz. You might want to build so it can handle >50 Hz to be safe. That makes life a lot easier.

For guitar the fundamental is 160. That makes life easier still. Who needs ports? Just knock a big hole out of the back. Simple, effective.

A lot more goes into building sub-bass cabs. For that I recommend this site: http://www.diysubwoofers.org/

It's spelled out very nicely there.


Edit 2: I personally have no experience building subwoofers, though it is something I have an interest in doing some time in the future. A guitar or bass cab differs from a sub in that they are at least an octave above the "sub" bass range and the needs are much simpler.

Sub-bass = 15 to 40 Hz. That's for the rumbling sounds in movies, maybe the deepest growl from the kick drum on a drum kit.

Bass = 80 to 15,000 Hz. We shouldn't forget the high frequencies in a bass cab otherwise you won't get punch. Punch is important. I used a pair of tens for mine, but others more interested in funk bass or progressive bass may opt for tweeters. Not me, I have a fretless jazz bass. Tweets would have been a waste of effort.

Porting is of some use if you're interested in efficiency or you want a specifically "round" tone. Again Bassilo is correct. Still, IMO, it's not all it's cracked up to be (at least for bass guitar.) It's a preference, and some people (myself) don't really prefer that kind of tight, modern bass tone. I like the old jazz tones myself.

Guitar = 160 to 22,000 Hz. Most cabs just use a 12" or two (or four.) Why? Probably price, originally. This is actually not a great design in terms of frequency response. In fact this is a horrible design in terms of that. So why do we do it? Well, because we always have. The sound of an electric guitar has evolved in our social consciousness with the inherent bumps in the frequency.

If you designed a guitar cab with crossovers, ports and a full frequency spectrum you will probably have a technically superior cabinet that will sound (strangely enough) like crap.

Why?

As I said, guitars are supposed to have those little "bumps" in the response. Ironically the response of a 12" seems to have just the right attack and juiciness to make a really balanced guitar sound. Here's where the artist side of being an acoustician steps in front of the scientist side and tells him to keep quiet for a minute.

The scientist only has a vague conception of why the strangely flawed multi-12" design sounds good while the artist responds simply, "who gives a crap?"

It works.
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

Last edited by Bubonic Chronic at May 16, 2005,
#119
Originally posted by flyinvshredder
BUY AN IPOD
BUY AN IPOD
BUY AN IPOD
...
Reported.

HAPPY BANNING!!
"Virtually no one who is taught Relativity continues to read the Bible."

#120
Hey a quick question here (best thread EVAR btw), but does anyone here have experience using Eminence speakers? I was considering building a 2x12 cabinet (using dimensions for a 3/4 back Mesa Boogie 2x12), and I wanted to put some Eminence speakers in (as I have heard they are great quality for half the price of Celestions). Are they good speakers to use? Are the Celestions (or Peavey's) really worth 2x the price of an Eminence? Also Eminence has another speaker called the Legend Modelling 12, which is supposed to be very good for metal/hard rock (the style I will be playing in), would putting one of these Modelling 12's with 1 FS12 produce an interesting/effective sound, or is it not advisable to mix and match speakers? Thanks a lot for all this info, great job!