#1
I don't know if anyone here has discovered this, but smalls jazz club (NYC club that gets a lot of great modern talent to perform) has a HUGE archive of old performances, and a live stream, all free of charge.
if your into that kind of thing, its an easy way to spend a couple hours listening to great, live, free music:
http://www.smallsjazzclub.com/index.cfm?itemCategory=32334&siteid=272&priorId=0&banner=a
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
#3
Apologies for drunken nonsense, but what do people get out of jazz? Imyself love a bit of chilled out Oscar Peterson or Bill Evans, but after a few listens of stuff on that site all the only impression I got was self indulgent BS.

Again...apolgiess...
#4
Quote by griffRG7321
Apologies for drunken nonsense, but what do people get out of jazz?


I dunno personally, but jazz bands are always in demand and you can make a bit of money from them. A lady in my office ONLY listens to classical and jazz. I think there's quite a lot of people like this out there, so there's a demand.

Additionally with jazz bands they can be multi purpose. They can be background music while people talk at a wedding, they can be the focus of a sit-down concert (you know the ones) and they can get the audience moving if they employ a singer.

But I do get what you're hinting at, the long extended solos in every song can get a bit too much, and often (particularly in modern jazz) attempts to be "clever" by employing heaps of scales/accidentals result in negating an overall melody or themes employed in the music. The concept of "mindless shredding" does not come from metal, it comes from jazz.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#5
As much as I talk and rave about it I have to agree with both of you. Most of the time is like swimming in an ocean of crap, especially the newer it gets. Trying not to offend the entire population of this forum, but jazz guitar sucks 90% of the time because its all just nonstop wankery.

You gotta do jazz guitar right tbh, too many wannabes and it sounds like endless noodling with that tone I absolutely loathe sometimes. I like a guitar with balls and inflections, not the weak sauce and scale running a lot of players feel content with.

But yea, mostly, I stay to the old masters and maybe some new impressive guys, especially bassists since Im one.

While Id rather play and listen to rock blues and old jamaican dub, focusing on jazz in my lessons has expanded my technique, writing, theory and improvisation 500,000 times more that it wouldve just playing regular rock and stuff. I think everyone should try and aim for that in their lessons, since you have that added pressure to learn stuff for the next lesson.


EDIT: Liking a jazz tune is not about liking the whole track like you would in a pop record, it's all the little moments that sum up to something nice.
Last edited by Pillo114 at Mar 17, 2011,
#7
+1

Kenny Burrell excepted. I'm much more a fan of melody than how many ways I can overcomplicate and overharmonize a progression. Thats why I appreciate the simpler smooth jazz stuff. But I'd say there are varied "degrees" of jazz from the basic standards, through melodic smooth jazz to outside atonal. I like standards like Blue Bossa, Satin Doll, etc, but not too impressed by the way outside stuff, and this is simply nothing more than a matter of my personal tastes. Those other ideas are perfectly valid, just not as interesting to me.

Sean
#8
I used to think jazz was utter wankery too. Then I stopped listening to fusion jazz.
Not a huge fan of bees
#9
Wondering what your opinions are about Wes Montgomery?

The "Re-incarnation of Plato" Award 2009
(most intelligent)
The "Good Samaritan" Award 2009 (most helpful)

[font="Palatino Linotype
Who's Andy Timmons??
#11
What have my drunk ramblings started

He's a good guitarist, it just doesn't do anything for me, I don't like the sound of jazz guitar, I do like jazz piano though.
#12
What is the sound of jazz guitar? Gypsy jazz? Electrified fusion? A big 'ol archtop? Or is it the sound of a bunch of 9th and 13th chords? Songs that run through the circle of 5ths? The trouble, in my opinion, is that jazz is far too broad to be considered a proper genre.

@griff Most good jazz players know better than to shit all over the song with mindless wankery.

Quote by griffRG7321
What have my drunk ramblings started

He's a good guitarist, it just doesn't do anything for me, I don't like the sound of jazz guitar, I do like jazz piano though.
#13
@griff Most good jazz players know better than to shit all over the song with mindless wankery.


Of course, it's just not mindless.
#14
Quote by Pillo114
Of course, it's just not mindless.


Of course. FWIW, I was just listening to MAB on spotify.... speaking of wankery.
#15
Quote by Pillo114
As much as I talk and rave about it I have to agree with both of you. Most of the time is like swimming in an ocean of crap, especially the newer it gets. Trying not to offend the entire population of this forum, but jazz guitar sucks 90% of the time because its all just nonstop wankery.

Nice try!


Quote by Pillo114

You gotta do jazz guitar right tbh, too many wannabes and it sounds like endless noodling with that tone I absolutely loathe sometimes. I like a guitar with balls and inflections, not the weak sauce and scale running a lot of players feel content with.


^ and that's unique to jazz? you never hear wannabee shredders noodling scales, arpeggios, and other fancy words with a shitty, generic Ibanez tone, and no feel? I do, all the time


Quote by Pillo114

EDIT: Liking a jazz tune is not about liking the whole track like you would in a pop record, it's all the little moments that sum up to something nice.


tbh, I don't see how you could know what "liking a jazz tune is about", when you don't even like it in the 1st place. Entire tracks of jazz are definitely enjoyed by those that appreciate the music.


Everyone has their tastes, but what you guys are doing IMO is justifying your lack of appreciation for something that you know is highly regarded. Another approach would be to listen and develop an appreciation. It doesn't have to be your favorite music, but at least you'd get something out of it.


Quote by Gelato
I used to think jazz was utter wankery too. Then I stopped listening to fusion jazz.


I used to not appreciate jazz as well..... then I STARTED listening.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 18, 2011,
#16
Well, well the advocate of the devil has finally shown his face.

Who says I dont love jazz? I rave so much about it on this forum to the point im either ignored or I kill the thread. I barrage the people I chat with from this forum with jazz and I study and listen to it nonstop.

That said, Im a realist and I hate the elitist crap about appreciation you just gave me. I like all music and I don't have to tolerate BS about listening.

and that's unique to jazz? you never hear wannabee shredders playing crappy out of time arpeggios with a shitty, generic Ibanez tone, and no feel? I do, all the time


No, but there's a difference, in order to play it you have to accept the fact that you have to study and shed for a long time, something someone in this generation of instant gratification might not particularly want.

The amount of discipline and training needed to start playing decent jazz guitar is maybe a quarter of what you need to spend on a horn, so naturally you get more people that just wank nonstop on it compared to a horn (not that there's no wanking on horns).

Im not saying there aren't any jazz guitarists that are interesting, Vic Juris for example, thats why I said 90% instead of 100%. It might be me (well I guess the others in this thread as well) but jazz guitar doesnt have the intensity I like.

tbh, I don't see how you could know what "liking a jazz tune is about", when you don't even like it in the 1st place. Entire tracks of jazz are definitely enjoyed by those that appreciate the music.


Music that relies heavily on improvisation is about all the little moments and jazz which is group improvisation can have little things you missed even after a couple hundred times of listening. Little microscopic things done by players can ripple through to the rest of the group and as a rhythm player, thats what does it for me.

About the majority of new jazz, it's crap. Fullstop. Too systematized, too traditionalist and barely any innovation, and for a style that is all about that its pretty sad, I'd rather listen to the old masters to be frank.
#17
Quote by Pillo114
Well, well the advocate of the devil has finally shown his face.




LOL, I don't see it that way.


Quote by Pillo114


That said, Im a realist and I hate the elitist crap about appreciation you just gave me. I like all music and I don't have to tolerate BS about listening.




Elitist crap eh? You ever hear the cliche "the pot calling the kettle black".... If not look into it, and then read your own post. While your at it, look up the words elitism/elitist.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 18, 2011,
#18
Quote by Pillo114
About the majority of new jazz, it's crap. Fullstop. Too systematized, too traditionalist and barely any innovation, and for a style that is all about that its pretty sad, I'd rather listen to the old masters to be frank.


I'd respectfully have to disagree, who are some modern jazz artists you listen to? To me, guitarists like Kurt Rosenwinkel, Mike Moreno, and Ben Monder, pianists such as Robert Glasper, Aaron Parks, and Brad Mehldau, and horn players like Joshua Redman, Christian Scott, and Ravi Coltrane are all pushing jazz in new directions, and for the most part with little pretension. Traditionalist is probably the last word I would use to describe the music of any of the artists I mentioned, take a listen to Ben Monder or his work with the Maria Schneider Orchestra if you haven't already. Very innovative, very interesting, and with great artistic merit.
Get baked, study theory.

Quote by :-D
Why are you bringing Cm into this?
#19
imo a lot of jazz soloing is wankery. which is precisely why my interest is being a spastically complicated rhythm player. i find rhythm jazz and smooth solo jazz (like the amazing grace cover in my prof.) much more enjoyable. it's still a bit self indulgent, but ive found that good rhythm (read: not "ok" rhythm players, truly talented rhythm players) players are really a very rare thing, whereas many jazz players who solo sound just "meh", so i hope to become an outstanding rhythm-guy, not a soloer.

still, it depends on the definition of wankery - is giant steps wankery because it's fast? (i dont personally think so). All subjective. to me, wankery is sacrificing musicality for "lolol look how quickly i can move my fingers".
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
Last edited by Banjocal at Mar 18, 2011,
#20
^^^
edit: To Instrumental

I got a couple Aaron Parks charts I had to learn actually, Peaceful Warrior is such a good tune, although I like him better with Rosenwinkel instead of his own group. The Dave Liebman tribute to Ornette is a pretty incredible album that came out last year too.

Thats the current cream of the crop though, and you could never consider that to be the majority of the jazz scene in a million years. It's almost like saying Radiohead is the face of pop music, of course its going to make the genre look innovative.
#21
Quote by Pillo114
^^^
edit: To Instrumental

I got a couple Aaron Parks charts I had to learn actually, Peaceful Warrior is such a good tune, although I like him better with Rosenwinkel instead of his own group. The Dave Liebman tribute to Ornette is a pretty incredible album that came out last year too.

Thats the current cream of the crop though, and you could never consider that to be the majority of the jazz scene in a million years. It's almost like saying Radiohead is the face of pop music, of course its going to make the genre look innovative.


Well I definitely think you ought to look around a little more still, cause there's quite a few fantastic artists out right now. I can't emphasize checking out Ben Monder enough, if you haven't. One of the best guitarists in the world I'd reckon.

As an aside, I'm playing Peaceful Warrior on a friend's music diploma recital, should be a lot of fun. Nemesis and Harvesting Dance are awesome tunes as well.
Get baked, study theory.

Quote by :-D
Why are you bringing Cm into this?
#22
Quote by GuitarMunky

I used to not appreciate jazz as well..... then I STARTED listening.


Ahaha, I love Jazz! I'm just saying Jazz Fusion turned me off it initially because I associated Frank Gambale with all Jazz

I've been working on some solo guitar arrangements of Duke Ellingtone tunes recently. Really enjoying them! Jazz is such a vague term, I don't think anyone could really say they don't like at least some element of it.
Not a huge fan of bees
#23
Quote by GuitarMunky
LOL, I don't see it that way.


Elitist crap eh? You ever hear the cliche "the pot calling the kettle black".... If not look into it, and then read your own post. While your at it, look up the words elitism/elitist.


Why don't you take a rest? Your act is getting old and boring. You're always in here stirring things up by making outlandish pronouncements and presumptions against people, and its uncalled for. You clearly demonstrate this childish snide eye-rolling sarcasm, or else you overstep the boundaries of good taste and respect for others by presuming upon others abilities like "I don't see how you can know anything about liking a Jazz tune", for no good reason. You know its all about taste and preference and its very subjective. There's no set way to appreciate something.

It's individual, and you step way out of line when you turn around with quips like...

"justifying your lack of appreciation for something that you know is highly regarded"

Give it up, people like what they like. There's no justification needed, this isn't some high court tribune, and people can like what they like, and should be able to function just fine in this topic without the ignorant quips.

Mods you may want to lock this, because clearly this needs to be dealt with before it becomes a firestorm, which is what its about to become.

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 19, 2011,
#26
Quote by griffRG7321
What have my drunk ramblings started

He's a good guitarist, it just doesn't do anything for me, I don't like the sound of jazz guitar, I do like jazz piano though.


I love jazz guitar that's all I play
isn't this just beautiful ( benson in this case)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4Yr9sF6ZwQ
Last edited by jayx124 at Mar 19, 2011,
#27
Quote by Sean0913
Why don't you take a rest? Your act is getting old and boring.


because I have as much right to post here is anyone. and I could comment on your act as well.


Quote by Sean0913

You're always in here stirring things up by making outlandish pronouncements and presumptions against people, and its uncalled for.


I believe this is YOU stirring things up here sean.

Quote by Sean0913

You clearly demonstrate this childish snide eye-rolling sarcasm, or else you overstep the boundaries of good taste and respect for others by presuming upon others abilities like "I don't see how you can know anything about liking a Jazz tune", for no good reason.


You clearly misrepresent my demeanor, and I had a good reason.


Quote by Sean0913



It's individual, and you step way out of line when you turn around with quips like...

"justifying your lack of appreciation for something that you know is highly regarded"


It's not a quip. It's my honest opinion, and at least I had the guts to say it.


Quote by Sean0913

Give it up, people like what they like. There's no justification needed, this isn't some high court tribune, and people can like what they like, and should be able to function just fine in this topic without the ignorant quips.


Why don't you give up? talk about lack of justification. I wasn't even talking to you in the 1st place.

Quote by Sean0913

Mods you may want to lock this, because clearly this needs to be dealt with before it becomes a firestorm, which is what its about to become.

Sean


^ nice tactic. get last word, ask mods to close.

nice try


Quote by Sean0913
Yeah, cooler heads prevailed.

Sean



ummm yeah


Quote by Gelato
Ahaha, I love Jazz! I'm just saying Jazz Fusion turned me off it initially because I associated Frank Gambale with all Jazz



Oh I know, I was actually just making an added point. I remember not digging it when I was younger, but then at some point I started to really listen to what was going on and developed an appreciation for the style. I'm glad I did!

Quote by Gelato

I've been working on some solo guitar arrangements of Duke Ellingtone tunes recently. Really enjoying them! Jazz is such a vague term, I don't think anyone could really say they don't like at least some element of it.


that sounds like fun
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 19, 2011,
#28
^both of you, stop arguing. im with sean on this (forum lurker here), but arguing is just as bad, stop spamming up the thread with this immature crap.
Quote by EndTheRapture51
who pays five hundred fucking dollars for a burger
#29
Quote by Banjocal
^both of you, stop arguing. im with sean on this (forum lurker here), but arguing is just as bad, stop spamming up the thread with this immature crap.


no offense, but don't tell me how to post. If someone quotes me, I have a right to respond.
your only making it a bigger deal now.
shred is gaudy music
#30
Quote by GuitarMunky


Oh I know, I was actually just making an added point. I remember not digging it when I was younger, but then at some point I started to really listen to what was going on and developed an appreciation for the style. I'm glad I did!


I don't think anyone on this forum passively listens to music, if someone said they don't like Derek Bailey, I'm not going to disregard their opinion and tell them they aren't LISTENING to music...that's just absurd.
#31
Quote by griffRG7321
I don't think anyone on this forum passively listens to music, if someone said they don't like Derek Bailey, I'm not going to disregard their opinion and tell them they aren't LISTENING to music...that's just absurd.


Look when a person says this...


Quote by Pillo114
Most of the time is like swimming in an ocean of crap, especially the newer it gets. Trying not to offend the entire population of this forum, but jazz guitar sucks 90% of the time because its all just nonstop wankery.




and then goes on to say what listening to Jazz "is all about"..


THAT is absurd.


and to get back to the OP...


Quote by tehREALcaptain
I don't know if anyone here has discovered this, but smalls jazz club (NYC club that gets a lot of great modern talent to perform) has a HUGE archive of old performances, and a live stream, all free of charge.
if your into that kind of thing, its an easy way to spend a couple hours listening to great, live, free music:
http://www.smallsjazzclub.com/index.cfm?itemCategory=32334&siteid=272&priorId=0&banner=a



^ nice find, thanks for sharing.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 19, 2011,
#32
and then goes on to say what listening to Jazz "is all about"..


THAT is absurd.


and to get back to the OP...




Have you ever gone and seen live jazz and jazz jams (see the topic? Live Jazz?) in your life? A hefty amount of it is just awful. It's not that the genre sucks, it's that there's a disproportionate amount thats just not good. Same with Classical composition, Oh NOES ABZURDx2.

Get your head out of your butt man.

nice find, thanks for sharing.


Hahahahahahhahahaha Second page in you post that? Sounds like you're really interested...
Last edited by Pillo114 at Mar 19, 2011,
#33
Quote by Pillo114
Have you ever gone and seen live jazz and jazz jams (see the topic? Live Jazz?) in your life?


Yes, I have

and the topic btw, wasn't "give me your opinion on live jazz".... (have you read the OP?)

Quote by Pillo114

A hefty amount of it is just awful.





that's your opinion. Shared by some by not all.
Quote by Pillo114


It's not that the genre sucks, it's that there's a disproportionate amount thats just not good. Same with Classical composition, Oh NOES ABZURDx2.

Get your head out of your butt man.


^ you could say that about any genre, and it'd still be just opinion.


and I would consider the person looking to justify their absurd generalizations as the one with the head up their butt.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 19, 2011,
#34
Quote by Banjocal
imo a lot of jazz soloing is wankery. which is precisely why my interest is being a spastically complicated rhythm player. i find rhythm jazz and smooth solo jazz (like the amazing grace cover in my prof.) much more enjoyable. it's still a bit self indulgent, but ive found that good rhythm (read: not "ok" rhythm players, truly talented rhythm players) players are really a very rare thing, whereas many jazz players who solo sound just "meh", so i hope to become an outstanding rhythm-guy, not a soloer.

still, it depends on the definition of wankery - is giant steps wankery because it's fast? (i dont personally think so). All subjective. to me, wankery is sacrificing musicality for "lolol look how quickly i can move my fingers".


Good post that seems to have been overlooked. Jazz soloing is not inherently total wankery; it's what you do with it that matters. Charlie Parker almost always incorporated really fast runs into his soloing but it still works because it's so musical and brilliantly done. Giant Steps is also very musical in my opinion. Just like the fast versions of Zappa's Black Page are also very musical. It's not just about playing fast vs. playing slow. Someone playing fast to mask their musical inability is not going to sound good at all, but someone playing fast because they feel it better expresses their artistic goals (not to make jazz soloing sound like some holy ritual) stands a very good chance of sounding musical.