#1
when a note is double flatted does that just mean that it goes back two frets? or is there some other meaning to it
#2
You got it. It goes down 2 frets.
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#4
So, E double flat = D ??? Like C double flat = Ab?
If so, then whats the point of it?
#5
Thnaks. I know stupid question but it thew me off seeing it for the first time
#6
Its really only existent from a theoretical standpoint. For instances, the key D Flat minor would have a B double flat. But in practicality, you would call the key C# Minor and call Bbb just A.
#7
Quote by Sixxology
when a note is double flatted does that just mean that it goes back two frets? or is there some other meaning to it


Yes, the important thing to realize is the reason for the double flat. The reason is that no matter what that degree of the scale may need to do, its letter never changes. So if I had a regular scale that had a certain 7th degree....and that degree was E, and I needed to make it a bb7 then that means I go back 2 half steps.

Since my original note is E, I cannot change it to anything but some 'kind' of E, so I would have an Ebb.

This is the pitch equivalent of D, but in the context of E being the 7th degree, this means that you cant change from E as the 7th to D as the 7th, because if E was the 7ths then D can only have been some kind of 6th, so I cant call a modified E some kind of D, even if the location of that modification, leads me to something that I'd commonly see as the D note, in almost every playing situation.

This helps us keep it straight, since letters never ever ever ever change, all we need to do is work out how that letter has been modified, but the letter stays the same.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Mar 21, 2011,
#9
Quote by Martindecorum
^ an easier understanding of what sean means

is that in every key

A - B - C - D - E - F -G

are always going to be there, but just get modified

Eg. so no key has A - A# in it


No diatonic key, but a certain scale certainly could have more than one instance of the same letter. So I'd want to make that distinction since people frequently miss that there are different understandings of keys...and that a key does function tonally and thus anything can be in a key, and correctly including double instances of notes.


Best,

Sean
#10
Quote by Sixxology
when a note is double flatted does that just mean that it goes back two frets? or is there some other meaning to it


yup, thats what it amounts to on guitar.

lower a note 2 semi-tones = lower a note 2 frets on guitar.

and as has been mentioned, the letter name remains.

a doubly flatted A = Abb
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#11
For example a whole dimished chord? which in terms of scale degree is 1 b3 b5 and bb7? If we had a C diminished chord: C, Eb, Gb, and Bbb? If we called the Bbb an A, or even a G##? it would be something different, depending on context?
Im still trying to get my head around this sorta thing :P
#12
Quote by cornela1
So, E double flat = D ??? Like C double flat = Ab?
If so, then whats the point of it?


Check again what the enharmonic of C♭♭ would be. (Cause it's not A♭
Si
#14
Quote by greeneyegat
For example a whole dimished chord? which in terms of scale degree is 1 b3 b5 and bb7? If we had a C diminished chord: C, Eb, Gb, and Bbb? If we called the Bbb an A, or even a G##? it would be something different, depending on context?
Im still trying to get my head around this sorta thing :P

It is so that you can see the relationship of the individual notes to the tonality of the moment.

When we see Bbb in a Cdim7 chord, the "B" registers as the 7th in our head. Writing A natural can be psychologically deceiving because it implies a 6th degree or extension when we are really trying to account for the 7th.

This enharmonic choice also allows for clear notation in context of a larger phrase. In common voice leading, that Bbb will be inclined to go to Ab. It is a more clear and concise spelling than to lead from A natural to Ab because of the directional implication; B to A is going down stepwise while A to A is ??

In today's unnatural, equal temperament tuning, these concepts of enharmonics are purely an abstraction that only serves to help your mind process information easier. However, in older temperaments, A Bb really did sound slightly different from an A# in pitch.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Mar 22, 2011,
#15
Quote by greeneyegat
For example a whole dimished chord? which in terms of scale degree is 1 b3 b5 and bb7? If we had a C diminished chord: C, Eb, Gb, and Bbb? If we called the Bbb an A, or even a G##? it would be something different, depending on context?
Im still trying to get my head around this sorta thing :P

for the record, double sharps are usually marked with Xs, so C## is usually written Cx.

The thing to remember is what accidentals are usually indicating. There most basic use is to indicate out-of-the-key leading tones. For example, the half step between the raised 7th and the tonic is very strong, with the next strongest being the 4-3 motion found in V7-I chords.

so, lets C# minor, and you find yourself moving towards the key area of V, so you want a raised fourth to increase the pull to the 5th of the scale. You would then write the raised fourth as a Fx, even though the sounding pitch is a Gnatural. But a G natural, if you wrote that, is actually the b5, which would indicate a different sort of tendency tone then a raised fourth.

It makes the most practical sense in vocal music, where the note spellings are extremely crucial to the ease of readability, and a singer would think about a #4 much differently then he or she would think about a b5
#16
Quote by Xiaoxi
In today's unnatural, equal temperament tuning, these concepts of enharmonics are purely an abstraction that only serves to help your mind process information easier. However, in older temperaments, A Bb really did sound slightly different from an A# in pitch.

I still think it matters a bit in practical performance, because a trained musician will think about a b differently then he or she will think about a sharp. A string professor once told me "sharps are intense, flats are relaxed," and I think that if the player thinks that way, then they are going to approach the notes with a different attitude.
#17
Quote by nmitchell076
I still think it matters a bit in practical performance, because a trained musician will think about a b differently then he or she will think about a sharp. A string professor once told me "sharps are intense, flats are relaxed," and I think that if the player thinks that way, then they are going to approach the notes with a different attitude.

That's part of what I meant when I said it is to help us process the information. Like I said in your sonata, the B# to Eb is a psychological dissonance in the minds of performers.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#18
Am I right in thinking that in just temperament that Bbb would not be exactly the same pitch as A?
#19
^Interesting question. There are several types of just intonation, but in any case, Bbb would probably not be enharmonic to A.