#1
what ways are there to stop pedals sucking tone?
Is there something I can do just once to stop it happening, or do I need to mess about with all the pedals individually to sort it out?

And how do I do it????

thanks
#2
what are the pedals? are you sure they're sucking tone?

true bypass loop is one way to do it, but depending on what your setup is it might be cracking a sledgehammer with a walnut kind of thing...
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Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
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Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
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#4
You need to mess around to sort it out. Try each pedal individually and make sure you consider that some cables may cause tone suck problems. So include cables in your tests. Also there are preamp buffers that you can put in your chain to help prevent tone suck depending on the source of the problem.
#5
True bypass will help considerably.
Switching off the effects loop (if it's footswitchable) may also provide you with answers, but that switches off all your pedals.

If you want to find out what's causing tone suckage, try removing all your pedals from the loop and then putting them back one by one. Also consider that a cable may cause the problem - if that seems to be the case, same procedure except with the cables.
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Last edited by PsiGuy60 at Mar 22, 2011,
#7
Quote by Dave_Mc
what are the pedals? are you sure they're sucking tone?

true bypass loop is one way to do it, but depending on what your setup is it might be cracking a sledgehammer with a walnut kind of thing...


I have a Crybaby wah, a couple of boss pedals, a korg, and an 80's DOD.
#9
Take the Crybaby out of there for now and put a Boss pedal at the beginning and at the end of your chain and see if that's better.
#10
I don't know about the people here, but I find that a good buffer is way better for your tone than true bypass. Obviously there is nothing "right", and it's completely subjective.

But anyway... I agree with the question, how do you know that you're getting tone suckage?
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#12
Quote by Offworld92
I don't know about the people here, but I find that a good buffer is way better for your tone than true bypass. Obviously there is nothing "right", and it's completely subjective.


True bypass is good to an extent. It depends on how many pedals and how long/good your cables are. Of course if buffers aren't designed well, they could be no good either.
#13
Quote by Offworld92
I don't know about the people here, but I find that a good buffer is way better for your tone than true bypass. Obviously there is nothing "right", and it's completely subjective.

But anyway... I agree with the question, how do you know that you're getting tone suckage?

It's not about being subjective. A good quality buffer is much better your tone. With True Bypass, it's like you add more cable. Eventually the signal degrades more and more. A Buffer turns the high impedance signal from the guitar into a low impedance, making it able to drive long cables with less degradation. A good Buffer > True Bypass
#14
Quote by fly135
You need to mess around to sort it out. Try each pedal individually and make sure you consider that some cables may cause tone suck problems. So include cables in your tests. Also there are preamp buffers that you can put in your chain to help prevent tone suck depending on the source of the problem.


yeah pretty much. you have a lot of pedals with buffers there, so it's just a matter of trying all the possible combinations to see if there is a noticeable difference etc.

I work on the basis that I want most (if not all) my pedals to be true bypass, then see how many buffers I need to neutralise the inevitable tone loss from true bypass and use the minimum (as too many buffers can start to stack and interact etc. and cause more harm than good if you're not careful).

Quote by Offworld92
I don't know about the people here, but I find that a good buffer is way better for your tone than true bypass.


true, but that buffer has to be good. A lot of pedals have mediocre, if not downright bad, buffers

Way I see it

good buffer > true bypass > mediocre or bad buffer

At least with true bypass I know what I'm getting- and I can buy (or build) standalone known good buffers which are well designed and which sound good, if all the other pedals are TBP.

Of course it's not always as simple as that- if i want to use a decimator (which is awesome) then it comes with a buffer. Luckily it's a pretty good buffer, so it's all good. And I don't use that many pedals so the one buffer is normally sufficient.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#15
Quote by darkwolf291
But remember...
Buffer Bypass > True Bypass as long as the buffer is good, EHX and Ibanez are two good examples of companies who use good buffers in their pedals. A Good buffer will help maintain your tonne better than a true bypass pedal.

I agree with this, if you're using a lot of pedals, somewhere in the shoegaze realm, it actually helps.
#16
Thanks for the link sethp! That looks awesome! I want to make one!
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#17
Quote by rawkandrowl
Thanks for the link sethp! That looks awesome! I want to make one!
Here's the one I made. I made a slight change in the schematic, so ask if you are interested.




Prior to wiring...

#18
so basically, if your rich and can afford custom patch cables and expensive guitar cables, keeping lines shorter, then true bypass is better?

and if you the average joe smoe with the general boss pedals, cry babys, and the live ire cables like 90% of us, get buffers? seems good to me????

ive always though about true bypass. definiely wont HURT tone, but it wont help unless your cables and pedals are of high quality. like everyone says, the weakest link. so if you have 1 crappy pedal in your chain does it pretty much kill the effect of the true bypass?

at this point with my setup, i just want true bypass to be assured nothing with color my tone. with all of my boss pedals and my cry baby, i know there are things going on. i just dont want anthing else effecting else effecting my signal.

...not to mention im using standard patch cables and guitar cables.

ps - for example guitar fetish has direct pedal couplers - ie 1 peice end to end linkage between pedals with no cable. would this help signal? its literally as direct as possible

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Straight-Male-Male-Interconnect-Perfect-for-Pedalboards_c_214.html

obviously, the bedals wouldn eed to be the same height as there is no flexibility. but if you have like 3 boss pedals, you could link them all. or roughly the same size otehr pedals. i thought about gettin me some


oh ps:

berhringer pedals kill your tone imo. ive seen it. like noticably. like jesus i took it away and its much better. not...i think maybe something is different. they SUCK tone like a Dyson vacuum cleaner.
Last edited by ikey_ at Mar 22, 2011,
#19
Quote by Griffin Effects
Take the Crybaby out of there for now and put a Boss pedal at the beginning and at the end of your chain and see if that's better.


I agree with this. The Crybaby is notorious for doing weird things when used in combination with other buffered pedals.

I agree with the others. I've always kept a Boss pedal at the front of my chain whether I actually use it or not. I started building my own buffer system based off Andertons design but then figured I was just reinventing the wheel and the Boss works fine.
#20
Quote by ikey_
ps - for example guitar fetish has direct pedal couplers - ie 1 peice end to end linkage between pedals with no cable. would this help signal? its literally as direct as possible

http://www.guitarfetish.com/Straight-Male-Male-Interconnect-Perfect-for-Pedalboards_c_214.html


I've used those and they work fine but I have seen people break them and break their pedal jacks with them. Don't ask me how, they seem impossible to break, but they managed...
#21
Quote by ikey_
at this point with my setup, i just want true bypass to be assured nothing with color my tone. with all of my boss pedals and my cry baby, i know there are things going on. i just dont want anthing else effecting else effecting my signal.



Anything and everything colors your tone in some way. Even the humidity can effect the paper in your speaker cones. Half of the fun is mixing and matching, plugging, unplugging, routing, etc to get the tone thats right for you. Whatever you do, keep notes! Sometimes a pedal sounds like crap in one position in your chain but good someplace else.
#22
It is my understanding that what is lost in the signal (the suck) is signal strength and some treble (or high end roll off.)

I have experimented with different orders and such, but the best solution is to put whatever modulation effects you can't put in the FX loop (if your amp has one) is to isolate them with a loop pedal.

In the absence of that, I have found that placing an extra EQ pedal in the chain to boost signal and add treble before the pedal that sucks tone when off to give good results.

Or use an EQ at the front emphasizing treble and a clean boost at the end of the signal chain to account for the sucking pedals.

Unfortunately, it also has side effects. Boost = gain = more potential noise thus necessitating a noise gate.

So, it is either remove the pedals you are not using much altogether, isolate some in a loop, or add more pedals.

Mmmm, more pedals.

Honestly at the point you have 10-20 ft of cable and added more than a boost, an EQ, a wah, delay and some chorus to the chain, it becomes a battle and some suck is to be expected.

Alas, the life of a cheap gear whoar. All suck and no pay.
Last edited by irnmadn88 at Mar 22, 2011,
#23
Quote by ikey_
so basically, if your rich and can afford custom patch cables and expensive guitar cables, keeping lines shorter, then true bypass is better?

There is no difference in quality from a $20 shielded cable and a $120 Shielded cable. They are all the same thing. Copper in a plastic shield wrapped in plastic for shielding and two jacks. The whole Gold plated thing is bullshit as well. A Cable's a Cable. If it's shielded it's fine.
#24
Quote by darkwolf291
There is no difference in quality from a $20 shielded cable and a $120 Shielded cable. They are all the same thing. Copper in a plastic shield wrapped in plastic for shielding and two jacks. The whole Gold plated thing is bullshit as well. A Cable's a Cable. If it's shielded it's fine.


What you want to look out for is the capacitance of the cable. The lower the better. Cheaper cable usually have a higher capacitance and you can loose some treble. Longer cables = more capacitance no matter the quality.
#25
Quote by ikey_
so basically, if your rich and can afford custom patch cables and expensive guitar cables, keeping lines shorter, then true bypass is better?...


Build your own cables. You control the quality, length, etc.
And its far less costly
#26
i dont trust myself. if good with tools, but not too great with electroncis. i can solder, but meh. if i were to do it myself it would be george Ls solderless system. but again...expensive.

i would buy a cable for the assurance its durable, LOW noise, and yes made with better materials with a high quality jack and solid wiring so that its going to last. monsters lifetime worranty is tempting. hearing demos if elixer cables is also tempting. they seem to make a difference.

but for the most part my cheapo cables hold up. i live with a band, and after about 2 years of gigging i think they have only broken 3 cables, 1 from accident, 1 stopped working, and 1 doesnt work well and crackles.

other than that, live wires work. however, if my setup i have run ofthe mill patch cables, a 10-12 foot limewire, and a 20 foot cheapo monster (decent for bedroom practice cause i can walk around freely in my big ass room.....ipractical for a stage. i also bought another 15 footer before i realized the effect of long cables.

so, minimum i have about 30+ foot of budget cables and pretty common pedals. i wonder what the effect is. i wonder if i bought a NICE cable, and some direct pedal couples (no cable) from GFS how much it would help.

irmaden - yeah. but at that point your adding so many pedals your doing a tap dance. your adding pedals just to use other pedals. thats silly in my book. simplicity is nice. even for common gigging musicians, i rarely see more than 6 pedals on a board....cause its a pain.

only people i see with massie boards are ones with huge professional quality hard cases and a pro patch cable custom setup. like a 1 time, do it for life investment. nobody has shit that big to fool with it all the time. silly.
#27
If you get the "direct patch cables" get the ones with the offset. The ones that go straight across don't work well at all because pedal jacks are differently spaced from the bottom of the pedal and you will find that they don't come out of some pedals straight (kind of tilted upward or downwards) and lift pedals off the ground. That's why they break.
#28
If you're trying to maintain your guitar tone with a group of pedals you could try the Radial Dragster. It's a buffer that is small, relatively cheap, and works. Neil Zaza showed me this little thing a few years ago and if it's good enough for him, it's good enough for me. I still keep my pedals to a minimum of about 4 pedals at once though. I don't see a need in compensating for that few amount of pedals.

http://www.tonebone.com/tb-dragster.htm
#29
Quote by darkwolf291
The whole Gold plated thing is bullshit as well. A Cable's a Cable.


Not to mention if you use gold plated everything needs to be gold plated. Dissimilar metals will oxidize.
#30
well if i was using direct it would be for similar pedals. like i have 2 boss pedals i use right now, im pretty sure boss pedals all have exact formats. for that i would use the straight ones and keep regualr patch cables for pedals of different brands
#31
Quote by ikey_
well if i was using direct it would be for similar pedals. like i have 2 boss pedals i use right now, im pretty sure boss pedals all have exact formats. for that i would use the straight ones and keep regualr patch cables for pedals of different brands


If you are talking about the Boss jacks lining up to use the direct cables, they don't line up. I've tried a ton of them and most actually don't line up right. Get the offset ones.