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#1
So I've been researching neuroscience and music lately and happened across a supplement that is a cholinergic precursor called alpha-GPC. Choline being a primary neurotransmitter that provides structural integrity for the brain and signaling roles for synaptic transmission. Took a few and had at least a 10% increase in accuracy when playing guitar and retaining memory was boosted too. I was able to pick up on learning parts to songs from bands i like a lot faster. Anyone try this at all? (<---ergo, weird question) if any of you do, let me know how it went for you. Thanks!
#4
Quote by Bob.Ego
So I've been researching neuroscience and music lately and happened across a supplement that is a cholinergic precursor called alpha-GPC. Choline being a primary neurotransmitter that provides structural integrity for the brain and signaling roles for synaptic transmission. Took a few and had at least a 10% increase in accuracy when playing guitar and retaining memory was boosted too. I was able to pick up on learning parts to songs from bands i like a lot faster. Anyone try this at all? (<---ergo, weird question) if any of you do, let me know how it went for you. Thanks!

And how the fudge do you actually measure that?

Be VERY careful where you go with this...
Actually called Mark!

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#5
Quote by steven seagull
And how the fudge do you actually measure that?

Be VERY careful where you go with this...


You can relax, choline is an essential nutrient found in most of the food you eat, eggs, lecithin and milk primarily. Although if you can get the supplement it would have a higher bioavailability.

I just popped this into amazon: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_0_9?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=alpha+gpc&x=0&y=0&sprefix=alpha+gpc

Or you could just go to any run of the mill health nut store.

Its completely safe to take. The 10% was a rough estimate but that is a good thing to be wary of. I'd love to find an accurate way to measure that. Maybe the control could be the length of time it takes for comprehension of new material by ear vs. without? Anyways if your worried about it just do your research.
#7
Quote by Bob.Ego
Its completely safe to take. The 10% was a rough estimate but that is a good thing to be wary of. I'd love to find an accurate way to measure that. Maybe the control could be the length of time it takes for comprehension of new material by ear vs. without? Anyways if your worried about it just do your research.

It'd be a good experiment... but not with that control. Remember you have off days and on days. As well as days where you're too tired and don't take-in as much. You also have days where your mind is on other things.
#8
that sounds interesting; if it works.
found this:
http://www.healthiertalk.com/alpha-gpc-focus-memory-and-cognitive-ability-2863

apparently its pretty good for you, as far as helping maintain neuroplasticity and even moderate alzheimers (which is what lets us keep learning as adults). the main issue is what is an effective dose, as plenty of supplements are sold at ineffective doses, meaning they won't really help, according to a quick survey of google; the 300 mg seems to be the average amount per pill, and most give you a 60 pill supply---meaning a bottle, at an effective dose will last about 2 weeks. is that worth the money?
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
#9
Chlorine is also present in most tap water. It is used to stop it from catching germs.

So drink more water and see how it affects your playing.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#11
Quote by axemanchris
It wasn't a typo. I thought maybe he meant chlorine too, at first.

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=Choline

CT




Still a load of crap to me anyways. Just a get rich scheme for guitar. If we were to follow the diets of our favourite musicians, well, let's just say we wouldn't feel very good.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#13
Quote by AlanHB


Still a load of crap to me anyways. Just a get rich scheme for guitar. If we were to follow the diets of our favourite musicians, well, let's just say we wouldn't feel very good.


A get rich quick scheme? That's retarded. I had no idea spending money on a supplement that's known to contribute to neural health can make you rich, please enlighten me. And no one made any references to the diet of any musician.
#14
Quote by Bob.Ego
A get rich quick scheme? That's retarded. I had no idea spending money on a supplement that's known to contribute to neural health can make you rich, please enlighten me. And no one made any references to the diet of any musician.


I don't think he meant 'get rich quick' literally. And you reffered to this nutriant being found in certain of foods, implying that the right diet could make you a better guitar player, or at least that's how I interpreted it.
Last edited by JetPackBlues at Mar 29, 2011,
#16
BS or not.... if people want to discuss it, I'm willing to keep it open until the discussion itself gets stupid.

CT
Could I get some more talent in the monitors, please?

I know it sounds crazy, but try to learn to inhale your voice. www.thebelcantotechnique.com

Chris is the king of relating music things to other objects in real life.
#17
From what little understanding I have or neurology, doesn't the affect of learning something result in new neorological pathways in the brain?

I suppose if something makes that process happen quicker, it could hypotheticaly improve guitar skills, but I'd be sceptical of something like this, after all it could just be a placebo effect.
#18
Quote by Bob.Ego
A get rich quick scheme? That's retarded.


Sorry I should have pointed out it was a metaphor. A reference to a shortcut etc.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#19
Why wouldn't you be skeptical?

Look I get that a lot of people here are leery of this. The point of opening this thread was to see if there is anyone else who has experimented with different ways of approaching guitar. I understand people are going to be saying:

"oh well that's just bullshit" because knee-jerk reactions to ideas just come with the territory. Especially when your behind a keyboard. I'm wary of potential spammers within an internet community. That's fine. I have ZERO financial interest in this. You'd think if I had a financial incentive in the first place I'd have lead you in a much more finite direction.

The idea is, there is more than one way to do anything. So far all the conventional feedback i get for asking this question from other forums is, "Just keep playing guitar dude" Really?

No shit.

This is not an attempt to shirk putting in the hours to play an instrument. It's what you can do to accelerate the process within that time. Good thing none of you are in the NFL. Your telling me you wouldn't hack an aspect of your physiology that's completely safe (so i'm obviously not talking about HGH and steriod abuse) and available in several forms to improve a skill? Only the dose makes the poison.

I know I said you can get it from food like lecithin or eggs. You could do a high dose lecithin diet. Have you tried it? I have, Lecithin comes in a bag of little yellow beads that have the consistency of earwax and tastes like shit. And eggs? Try not to clear the room by farting a symphony after you digest several of them. Thanks but i'll take the capsule with a compound that i wasn't psychologically primed to expect anything from when i noticed a difference in performance and did a little research. It just happened to work.

It's completely plausible that there is a placebo effect. That's why they test in group settings to determine that. So why not hold a simple experiment? If anyone here takes it, Alpha GPC, Choline pills, foods high in choline content, wherever the hell you get it, put in your two cents and tell the rest of the forum in this thread your experience. From what I understand anything that starts with an aceytl-group which is an organic compound is your best bet because it crosses the blood brain barrier.

From the looks of it scientists have been studying analogs of choline and their effects on neuromuscular memory for quite a while:

-http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1967.tb53788.x/abstract

-http://jp.physoc.org/content/117/2/241.full.pdf (see summary, point 4.)

-http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/neu.480170206/abstract

This isn't to suggest anything absolute but hey, if you think it's bullshit, and you care enough, prove the hypothesis wrong.
#20
Quote by Bob.Ego
I was able to pick up on learning parts to songs from bands i like a lot faster. Anyone try this at all?


The thing that really helped me in learning music by ear was to practice doing it. It's kind of an old fashion concept, and not something that impresses people when you tell them about it, but in actuality it is highly effective. And nobody needs a scientist or statistics to understand that.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Mar 29, 2011,
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky
The thing that really helped me in learning music by ear was to practice doing it. It's kind of an old fashion concept, and not something that impresses people when you tell them about it, but in actuality it is highly effective. And nobody needs a scientist or statistics to understand that.


Again, missing the point. Repetition to acquire a skill is a given. And its more timeless than old fashioned. I'm saying there's more than one way along WITH repetition that could help. That's all.
#22
Quote by Bob.Ego
Why wouldn't you be skeptical? ......

This isn't to suggest anything absolute but hey, if you think it's bullshit, and you care enough, prove the hypothesis wrong.


I never said it's bullshit, but why go for things that could work when you can instead rely on foods that have already been proven to improve your guitar playing ability?





Figure out what these guys are eating and you'll be on the same guitar level.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#23
It's a pretty much a given fact that a healthy balanced diet is good for the brain which in turn is good for learning stuff, and for a long time oily fish that's high in omega-3 fatty acids has been considered as a good 'brain food'. Infact you can get omega-3 capsules for that very reason, so it's not unreasonable to assume there are other substances that have a similar effect. But the important thing to remember is that any suppliment will generaly only work as part of a healthy diet.

No one's saying it wouldn't work, but it would work on different levels for different people, depending on their diet and their body's metabolism. For some, it's likely that it would have no percievable effect, so we really shouldn't be treating it as a wonder drug.
#24
Thanks for posting this. I'm a bit of a gym junkie. There are some supplements I've taken for the gym that have had an effect that I simply couldn't attribute to placebo. Hence I'm willing to give things a try, as long as they don't endanger my health. I've been taking ALCAR (Acetyl L-Carnitine) for a while and this appears to have some mild neurological benefits. After reading your initial post I did a bit of reading on the 'net. It seems the combination of ALCAR and Alpha-GPC should yield some really positive results, so I've ordered some Alpha-GPC. Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated.
#25
Quote by andrew_k
Thanks for posting this. I'm a bit of a gym junkie. There are some supplements I've taken for the gym that have had an effect that I simply couldn't attribute to placebo. Hence I'm willing to give things a try, as long as they don't endanger my health. I've been taking ALCAR (Acetyl L-Carnitine) for a while and this appears to have some mild neurological benefits. After reading your initial post I did a bit of reading on the 'net. It seems the combination of ALCAR and Alpha-GPC should yield some really positive results, so I've ordered some Alpha-GPC. Thanks for the heads up, much appreciated.


Haha thats awesome! Thanks for checking it out and taking the 5 seconds it takes to research it instead of shitting on the idea like some of the other thizzed out butt-fuc kers i've gotten responses from. Lemme know how it goes for you.
#27
Quote by AlanHB


Still a load of crap to me anyways. Just a get rich scheme for guitar. If we were to follow the diets of our favourite musicians, well, let's just say we wouldn't feel very good.


What if my favorite musician is John Petrucci >_>
#28
Quote by Bob.Ego
Haha thats awesome! Thanks for checking it out and taking the 5 seconds it takes to research it instead of shitting on the idea like some of the other thizzed out butt-fuc kers i've gotten responses from. Lemme know how it goes for you.


Y'know, there are much better ways of convincing people of your point of view than throwing insults at them. Infact, it is usualy the case that 'polite' debate stands a much better chance of changing someone's mind than convincing them that you're simply insolent.
#29
Quote by SlackerBabbath
Y'know, there are much better ways of convincing people of your point of view than throwing insults at them. Infact, it is usualy the case that 'polite' debate stands a much better chance of changing someone's mind than convincing them that you're simply insolent.


Good one, guy who assumes I'm referring to him or anyone on this thread. Thank god you added italics to your words and bad spelling or I really wouldn't have been able to gauge the seriousness of your witty yet passive aggressive repartee.

Come on now buddy. Let's not get all crazy with the stilted language. I've posted on other forums besides this one. And I'm just being honest. There are a lot of thizzed out buttfuc kers out there.
#30
i prefer the phrase "poopieheaded meaniefaces" myself, but to each their own.

On topic, though, I can see both sides of the argument. It could potentially work, but I doubt it would have much more than a marginal benefit, seeing as it's a nutrient you already get through normal foods. I do think that doses large enough to see a noticeable improvement will develop some physical dependency on that amount of nutrient, though, so I wouldn't advise it.
#31
Quote by -Blue-
i prefer the phrase "poopieheaded meaniefaces" myself, but to each their own.

On topic, though, I can see both sides of the argument. It could potentially work, but I doubt it would have much more than a marginal benefit, seeing as it's a nutrient you already get through normal foods. I do think that doses large enough to see a noticeable improvement will develop some physical dependency on that amount of nutrient, though, so I wouldn't advise it.


Anyone who takes it should know the dose makes the poison. Just use discretion. You could say the exact same thing about vitamin C.
#32
Quote by Bob.Ego
Good one, guy who assumes I'm referring to him or anyone on this thread. Thank god you added italics to your words and bad spelling or I really wouldn't have been able to gauge the seriousness of your witty yet passive aggressive repartee.

Come on now buddy. Let's not get all crazy with the stilted language. I've posted on other forums besides this one. And I'm just being honest. There are a lot of thizzed out buttfuc kers out there.


You said, "shitting on the idea like some of the other thizzed out butt-fuc kers i've gotten responses from", so unless you've posted this "idea" somewhere else and have "gotten responses", we can only assume you must be talking about someone on this thread. Although I didn't think you were referring to me personaly because I haven't actualy shitted on the idea.

I hope my spelling in this post is up to your high standards, I wouldn't want it to detract from the point I was trying to make which was simply that talking crap to people just makes them wanna ignore you.
You obviously care a great deal about getting your point across to as many people as possible, so I just thought it may help you to know that.

Sorry if I offended you in any way.
Last edited by SlackerBabbath at Apr 2, 2011,
#33
I have no idea what your agenda is or where you're going with this...however I suspect it won't be going any farther on UG.

http://forums.smnnews.com/showthread.php?p=3701999#post3701999

http://www.metalthrone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=232171

looks like everyone else thinks you're full of shit too...do you have a valid reason for joining this forum other than to spout quasi-scientific bollocks? Or are you just adopting the scatter-gun approach inthe hope that someone listens?
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#35
I'll only be convinced that something like this works if there is research done with a statistically significant conclusion stating that choline-precursor supplements improve memory and cognition.

Bear in mind that what we have so far is this:

1. Studies of choline and choline analogues in molluscs and house pets -- animals with physiological profiles appreciably different from homo sapiens.

2. Studies suggesting improved recovery after neural damage if the patient is given these choline-like drugs.

3. Studies in normal humans, which have no statistical significance.

It does not follow logically from any of these that a normal specimen of homo sapiens will therefore have better memory or cognition if given the drug. Therefore it should be studied conclusively before any judgements are made.

Also bear in mind the placebo effect: if any 10 people are given tablets that contain no active substances, and are told that the tablets will do X (where X is something like cure their athlete's foot or improve their memory or drive evil spirits away) then 3 people out of the ten will report that X has happened to a degree. So for anything to have a statistically significant effect it must at least be more effective than a placebo.

So without real evidence, the people marketing choline supplements are selling you something that they claim makes you smarter without any real evidence, and the stuff they're selling is found in a normal healthy diet anyway. I won't pay for it.

/2c

EDIT: Whoops, looks like it turned ugly
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Last edited by Sewe Dae at Apr 3, 2011,
#36
Quote by steven seagull
I have no idea what your agenda is or where you're going with this...however I suspect it won't be going any farther on UG.

http://forums.smnnews.com/showthread.php?p=3701999#post3701999

http://www.metalthrone.net/forum/showthread.php?p=232171

looks like everyone else thinks you're full of shit too...do you have a valid reason for joining this forum other than to spout quasi-scientific bollocks? Or are you just adopting the scatter-gun approach inthe hope that someone listens?


Hahaha, nice, i'm glad that provoking your interest with my responses has given you the inspiration to look up where I actually put the question. Now if YOU just put that in the right direction and proved my original question wrong, then we'd be getting somewhere here. Otherwise quit being such a nervous maid and leave the conversation.

Take it from Sewe Dae, although he didn't cite any evidence of where he came up with that (can't bag on him for that though, I've only been able to provide three so far) he said something that makes sense in ways that can be referenced.

Anyone who goes in here and takes the time to respond must care in some way, but why they care at all is the real kicker, and these are the haters I'm referring to. Not the average joe's who look at it and provide either a small contribution or just indifference and don't reply at all because they don't feel the same way you do about your precious forum. Could be because you feel I invaded your little place to escape and feel justified with shooting an idea down because rationalizing that it is a marketing scheme is just an easy default conclusion. Whatever. I could care less what your actual reasons are.

Of course everyone else thinks I'm full of shit. What do you expect? What I didn't conceive was how stupid the responses would be. Not the individuals that added to the conversation with rational responses that may or may not be right. I'm referring to the idiocy it would take to assume I'm from a company promoting a product with a generalized opening like that.

Let's think hypothetically here, you would think if I was working for a company that sold alpha-gpc or anything under the sun that I would lead you to a specific source BECAUSE THERE'S MORE THAN ONE VENDOR AND MILLION DIFFERENT RESELLERS. Yeah, brilliant marketing. I put out a post in an already saturated industry and hope that somehow someone here will buy my specific brand instead of lending a random competitor business. Way to go.

The-point-of-the-post-is-to-see-if-others-had-tried-it.

My question was just a crap shoot and I've had fun with it so far. I put it out as a friendly question to see who would say what, and it was just too funny to read what people would say. So on one forum I stuck with the chatter, the other I mirrored their responses and talked shit right back to them, and others didn't even give responses at all. So what? It was such a basic question. "Hey I found this, have any of you tried it?"
Last edited by Bob.Ego at Apr 3, 2011,
#37
So basically you're a troll ?

That's what I figured.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#38
So basically you're a troll ?

That's what I figured.


I love when the last post in a thread sums it up lol.

OT: in my opinion those types of supplements help in as much as having a balanced diet. Since they are in fact supplementing something you are supposed to have. However, I find it unlikely that even if you do gain minute amounts of retention capability from this thing it will be worth the price. IMO practice guitar more take less pills eat healthy get good rest stay hydrated lol. Needless to say I won't be buying this crap. I already spend enough money on this hobby for tangible results I am not throwing money at it for something that night make something 10% better lol.
#39
^Supplement = additional. Supplements are to be taken in conjunction with a balanced diet not to provide something you're missing from an unbalanced diet.
........................

Well with regards to creatine I'd be surprised if there are many elite athletes that don't use creatine. It has many health benefits including improvements in brain function. Creatine is naturally produced by the body. You should load and dose properly. It's not steroids or close. It's about as close to steroids as an asprin is to a speedball (an intravenous cocktail of heroin and cocaine).

I had a look around when he first posted this and it's easy to find articles supporting what he's saying in regards to alpha-GPC. Many of those are bodybuilding sites but there are also some that are purely approaching this from the point of view of brain function and alphaGPC, omega3, gingko biloba, a range of vitamin B are described as supplements that can improve focus and cognitive function.

There is good reason to be skeptical of course. As with all supplements much of the supporting science is questionable and results are debated. Many websites will overstate and inflate the effectiveness of supplements. Side effects particularly long term side effects are sometimes not well known and even if they are known they are not well publicized.

It doesn't take much on google to find one supplement company or another in legal trouble over illegal advertising strategies. Even legal advertising strategies when it comes to this kind of thing are completely immoral and misleading.

I've tried creatine and couldn't tell you if it gave results. It's a pretty common supplement and it's benefits are fairly well accepted. The problem was when I used it I also changed my diet and exercise count and strategy. I saw very good and impressive physical changes within a short period but there were too many changes to show what contributed how much. I also saw very positive changes in my mental state and again don't know what contributed to that specifically. I think it was the whole package.

The supplement thing can be taken too far though. Creatine is pretty low key as are protein powders. When you start getting into pharmaceutical grade powders that look like they smoke when you open the bottle you have to question if you're on the slippery slope. You can start messing your body up slowly without realizing it and without noticing the small cumulative changes in your mood or overall wellbeing. Focusing only on the promised result you assume you are improving your health without realizing your kidneys and liver are getting fuc kked up. You got to be careful when you start messing with your body's natural state.
------------

I think the effectiveness of AlphaGPC on learning and instrument would be a tough thing to document accurately. You would have to do cognitive tests on numerous occasions and tests to gauge dexterity and coordination and how long it takes to learn a new song error rate etc.

But you would need a sufficiently large number of people musicians at various levels of experience over the age of 18. You would need enough to blindly split into three or four groups. One would be on a placebo one on a small dose one group on a moderate dose and one group on a higher dose then take regular measurement of their progress before then perhaps over a period of perhaps three months. You would need to track and/or control their practice routine so that the groups were equal in regards to practice time and strategy. Then see if any groups show faster improvement on their instrument than the others.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Apr 4, 2011,
#40
I think it's time for this to be closed. All parties have had their say. I'll give you guys time to make your closing submissions.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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