#1
Hey everybody. no this is not that typical harmonizing thread.
I'm here to offer to talk about Harmony and Counterpoint music. the latter can't go without the former I say.

What are some good starting points for both? I have some ideas nad have written few inventions/canons (though they weren't anything special cause I was rather experimenting) and I have theory and composition knowledge. The question of mine is gonna be what books or internet recourses are good for developing the skills further. I'd love some straight info instead of like 100 pages of just philosophy if you know what I mean
#2
You can't go wrong with Piston. I have his Harmony, counterpoint and orchestration books, can't say I've looked at the orchestration book much yet, but all the books are of the highest standard of knowledge.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Mar 29, 2011,
#5
I really like species counterpoint, although I know a lot of people don't and think it's too tedious or something, but quite frankly it's a great way to learn counterpoint and voice leading.

Fux's book is a great and concise example (the original example for that matter), but another one with more expansion on the idea is Modal Counterpoint: Renaissance Style by Peter Schubert. It has a lot of good exercises that are more pedagogical than Fux's straight cantus firmus exercises.

For Harmony you can't really go wrong with Piston or the alternative route would be the Schenker/Schacter/Salzer books. I work out of a book that is more Schenker influenced, but I think the differences are mostly in analysis, not exactly sure though.
#6
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I really like species counterpoint, although I know a lot of people don't and think it's too tedious or something, but quite frankly it's a great way to learn counterpoint and voice leading.

Fux's book is a great and concise example (the original example for that matter), but another one with more expansion on the idea is Modal Counterpoint: Renaissance Style by Peter Schubert. It has a lot of good exercises that are more pedagogical than Fux's straight cantus firmus exercises.

For Harmony you can't really go wrong with Piston or the alternative route would be the Schenker/Schacter/Salzer books. I work out of a book that is more Schenker influenced, but I think the differences are mostly in analysis, not exactly sure though.


this.

basically, you've already found everything you'll ever need as far as harmony and counterpoint go. piston for the former and fux for the latter.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#7
for harmony piston is pretty much unsurpassed, it's just such a damn good book! fux is good and it's what we used for college, but it was written like half a millennium ago! still a good book, but for harmony i'd recommend piston. it even goes up to some (although not much) atonal harmony, but it's more the basics before you go on and study it further rather than just in itself. but yeah, get it!
#8
For 20th century harmony...

Twentieth century harmony: Creative aspects and practice / Vincent Persichetti.

The technique of my musical language - Olivier Messiaen
#9
Quote by Vendetta V
Hey everybody. no this is not that typical harmonizing thread.
I'm here to offer to talk about Harmony and Counterpoint music. the latter can't go without the former I say.

What are some good starting points for both? I have some ideas nad have written few inventions/canons (though they weren't anything special cause I was rather experimenting) and I have theory and composition knowledge. The question of mine is gonna be what books or internet recourses are good for developing the skills further. I'd love some straight info instead of like 100 pages of just philosophy if you know what I mean

Are you talking tonal harmony? Or are we talking 20th century / post tonal harmony?
#12
^^ yeah that's also true... could anybody really analyze for me Tocatta and fugue in Dm? tocatta only or may be the first bit of fugue as well?? like the first 2 minutes of it... why i picked this one up? because i just know it by heart and it'll be easier to understand by just reading
#13
I am an expert on tonal harmony.You can ask me anything related to that and i would really give satisfactory answers
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#14
Quote by Vendetta V
^^ yeah that's also true... could anybody really analyze for me Tocatta and fugue in Dm? tocatta only or may be the first bit of fugue as well?? like the first 2 minutes of it... why i picked this one up? because i just know it by heart and it'll be easier to understand by just reading


The point is that YOU analyze the piece, not look at someone else's analysis.
#15
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
The point is that YOU analyze the piece, not look at someone else's analysis.


This. Analyze as much as you can, if you're struggling with something, ask about it here.
#16
well I have so many questions. I'd want to understand teh theory behind all his accidentals he throws in that piece all the time but doesn't really sound dissonant... like all the B and B flat all the time... idk.. that's why i'd loev someone's analysis to see how it all goes... I don't know as I said I'm not much experienced in it...
#17
Start learning functional harmony. You can describe a lot about what Bach does (almost everything) by understanding the rudiments of how chords function and progress. The idea of [tonic funtion - subdominant function - dominant funtion - tonic function] can basically describe the majority of what Bach (or any tonal composer) does.

On a related note, I'm completely fed-up with the theory text at my Uni, so:

To anyone who has studied out of the Piston, did you study out of the 4th/5th edition or one of the earlier ones? I've read some reviews that say the later editions were butchered by Mark DeVoto and I'm wondering if it would be worth it to seek out an older copy, or if the newer versions are fine.
#18
well I have so many questions. I'd want to understand teh theory behind all his accidentals he throws in that piece all the time but doesn't really sound dissonant... like all the B and B flat all the time... idk.. that's why i'd loev someone's analysis to see how it all goes... I don't know as I said I'm not much experienced in it...

without looking at the score or being familiar with the piece, id imagine if its a tocata in d minor, the b and b flats are coming out of different forms of the minor scale (melodic vs. natural or harmonic), its possible he wanted a minor ii chord (when you'd want the B, as Bb would give you a half diminished seventh chord or a diminished triad) or a fully diminished vii chord (where you'd want a Bb).
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
#19
Quote by SteveShing
I am an expert on tonal harmony.You can ask me anything related to that and i would really give satisfactory answers


I really appreciate that, but what I am really wanting, and which is more in context with this conversation, is information on online business degrees.

Could you help?

Sean
#20
Quote by tehREALcaptain
without looking at the score or being familiar with the piece, id imagine if its a tocata in d minor, the b and b flats are coming out of different forms of the minor scale (melodic vs. natural or harmonic), its possible he wanted a minor ii chord (when you'd want the B, as Bb would give you a half diminished seventh chord or a diminished triad) or a fully diminished vii chord (where you'd want a Bb).


yeah this makes sense... I was thinking he was going thru natural and probably harmonic minor...

anyways hmm about those chords... I was also trying to get into all those Neapolitan chords and whatnot but got really nothing
#21
Neapolitan 6th chords are first inversion bII chords. They are generally used as pre-dominants, and sound pretty badass
#23
Quote by griffRG7321
Neapolitan 6th chords are first inversion bII chords. They are generally used as pre-dominants, and sound pretty badass


they're great, especially when going to the tonic instead, much more bad ass! yeah if it's in the minor key a lot of accidentals are gonna be coming out of the melodic minor scale.

also keep in mind that so much music like this modulates every few bars, or even for one bar so if you see a clump of accidentals, there's a good chance that it's in a related key (particularly in the minor because you'll need both the 6th and 4th sharpened even to get to the most closely related key).

so, most importantly i'd say keep in mind that there's a lot of modulations anyway.

also, i have the piston devoto one and it's still great although i've never read the other one so i don't have anything to compare it to, it is still a great book though!
#25
Quote by griffRG7321
Neapolitan 6th chords are first inversion bII chords. They are generally used as pre-dominants, and sound pretty badass

so say in Cmaj the bII is Db Fb Ab (i wrote it so that i don't make it enharmonic from Cmaj) and so the first inversion is Fb Ab Db resolved in C maj??? (sorry if my terminology is lacking, I studies half of my classical knowledge in Russian)
#26
N6 in C is F Ab Db. "bII" is a misnomer because the N6 is actually derived from the iv chord.
#27
Quote by gavk

also, i have the piston devoto one and it's still great although i've never read the other one so i don't have anything to compare it to, it is still a great book though!


Alright cool, thanks.
#29
Quote by Vendetta V
errm i dont get it ...


OK, the iv chord (in C) is F Ab C. It's common for a iv chord to precede a V or i64 chord. Somewhere down the line, composers started substituting the C in the iv chord with Db, thus creating F Ab Db (what we call the N6 chord). This opened up new melodic possibilities - for example, Db moving to the leading tone then the tonic, etc. N6 basically functions the same as iv or ii, iiº.
#30
Quote by griffRG7321
French sixth in 2nd inversion? Sounds more like an altered dominant. Wouldn't the figuring for that be 7/b5/# ?

Its just a standard V4/3 with b2 in the bass instead of 2.

Its called the French 4 3 because it IS the Fr+6 but transposed to function as the dominant.

its easier to see when related as pitch classes (in C, the Fr+6 beginning on 0):
Fr+6 = T0 {0,2,6,8} (do, re, fi, le)
Fr4/3 = T5 {5,7,11,1} (fa, sol, ti, ra)

Just put into the right inversion, and viola.
Last edited by nmitchell076 at Mar 31, 2011,
#32
Substitute for iiº, yes. I suppose it could also sub for V if the I chord is major (to make a Phrygian cadence), but typically, N6 is pre-dominant.
#34
listen to anything by Bach to be honest, with the sheet music in front of you as well. In particular, look at the Well Tempered Clavier or his organ preludes and fugues. He was a genius, so best go for him.
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