Poll: Whats the deal with Unions?
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View poll results: Whats the deal with Unions?
Screw the unions!
25 24%
Unions FTW!
63 59%
Unions?
18 17%
Voters: 106.
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#1
Well, lots of coverage of Union protests across the U.S.A. recently. There's consistently a struggle of the union laborers, who are state-employed workers such as teachers, library workers, garbage collectors, and of course many others who get a lot of benefits from the state.

Even though they admittedly get a lot of benefits, the battle against them seems to want to completely remove their influence and benefits because of it's negative impact on the state budget.

So; your opinion on these unions. Let's go.

In my opinion, state workers get too many perks, but there still needs to be a union
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#3
You've got just as much trouble in the end whether you go it alone or with a Union. They 'can' be good, but whether they end up actually being good or not is a different story.
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#4
Look at it this way, the companies are always being held at the throat because the unions just want to whine about what they 'deserve'. The leaders of the unions get paid more annually than those they represent, and what does that tell you about their motives? I disagree with the unions, your employer pays you to do your job. And, think about this as well, if an employer is being unfair to its employees, they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work. Things do balance themselves out, the unions just make things worse.
#5
I first read the title too quickly and thought it said 'Unicorns', I shall now depart.
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#6
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I first read the title too quickly and thought it said 'Unicorns', I shall now depart.


This
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#7
Quote by Draconis93
And, think about this as well, if an employer is being unfair to its employees, they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work.


You can't honestly believe that. You're wrong on two counts.

Quote by Draconis93
And, think about this as well, if an employer is being unfair to its employees, they would just quit


You honestly think that in this job market, the average worker can afford to quit his/her job due to unfair treatment? A job is a necessity, it's not an option, as you made it sound. If the economy were in better shape, you might be right. But in reality, as things are, if someone has a job, they aren't going to simply quit. They don't have that choice. It's survival.

Quote by Draconis93
they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work.


Also incorrect. Marx wrote about the labor "reserve army" of laborers. Large businesses hold the advantage over their employees in view of the fact that there's practically a mob of unemployed workers who are ready and willing to start work immediatelly when one of the employees quits.

They are replaceable. Once again, they can't quit.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#9
Quote by Draconis93
Look at it this way, the companies are always being held at the throat because the unions just want to whine about what they 'deserve'. The leaders of the unions get paid more annually than those they represent, and what does that tell you about their motives? I disagree with the unions, your employer pays you to do your job. And, think about this as well, if an employer is being unfair to its employees, they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work. Things do balance themselves out, the unions just make things worse.

Yea, because there's no unemployment?
If they'd just quit, other people would go and work there, no problem for the companies. The person who quit however is pretty ****ed since not everyone can find a new job that easy...

Also, in America unions are needed because employees basically have very little rights. But that's also because America is extremely liberal and that has as a direct consequence that you are left with very little rights (unemployment support, social housing, health insurance (really, it's still not much now),...)
Here in Europe, unions are also needed but they need to know when to stop asking for more. Really, in my country (Belgium) they're practically ****ing up the forming of a new government (interesting fact: the formation of our government has been going on for 9 months, it's a world record!). The things they ask are a bit ridiculous, and a couple of weeks ago, they agreed on some kind of reformation agreement. But when they heard the union members didn't really agree, they decided to block the agreement anyway... Seriously, they're not making themselves popular either with at least 1 strike a week.
/rant
EDIT: What SlinkyBlue said +a hell of a lot
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Last edited by poipoi at Apr 1, 2011,
#10
Quote by Draconis93
Look at it this way, the companies are always being held at the throat because the unions just want to whine about what they 'deserve'. The leaders of the unions get paid more annually than those they represent, and what does that tell you about their motives? I disagree with the unions, your employer pays you to do your job. And, think about this as well, if an employer is being unfair to its employees, they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work. Things do balance themselves out, the unions just make things worse.


So basically, employers have the right to suppress the righs of their employees, just because they pay them?

they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work


I believe that there's a funny thing called striking which has the same effect, but without quitting. These are organised by the unions and their leaders.

Please grow up.
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#11
I believe unions had their place in history but aren't needed anymore. Just look at one of the biggest companies in the world who has never even had a union and thrived, Ford. In fact back in the day Henry Ford used to hire thugs to beat up people who were talking about starting up a Union. He new it would be poison to the company.
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#12
Quote by Wylde_Guitarist
I believe unions had their place in history but aren't needed anymore. Just look at one of the biggest companies in the world who has never even had a union and thrived, Ford. In fact back in the day Henry Ford used to hire thugs to beat up people who were talking about starting up a Union. He new it would be poison to the company.


Sure, but they can't make a car for shit anymore
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#13
Quote by Draconis93
Look at it this way, the companies are always being held at the throat because the unions just want to whine about what they 'deserve'. The leaders of the unions get paid more annually than those they represent, and what does that tell you about their motives? I disagree with the unions, your employer pays you to do your job. And, think about this as well, if an employer is being unfair to its employees, they would just quit, and there would be no one to do the work. Things do balance themselves out, the unions just make things worse.


All I heard was "Aahhhm 'merican, gaawd dammit!".
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#14
I agree with the concept of unions as a way for workers to organize for fair treatment, but I feel the unions have become complacent and bourgeois themselves (/Kumanji), the very thing they're supposed to be fighting.
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#15
I don't like how decidedly black and white your poll is...

Either way, Unions are a good thing, and served a very important purpose. That being said, a lot of Unions are susceptible to corruption, they become nothing more than a lobbyist group.

Now, public workers unions in my opinion are quite a bit different from your traditional "industrial union" for the obvious fact that, most unions developed from people employed by private companies, who understandably were trying to make the biggest profit they could.
Public workers are employed by the government, quite frankly, they shouldn't need a union period.

Now, for the contemporary issue of unions: Public workers should not be surprised to see the same cuts that have been affecting other Americans for 2 years now. Collective bargaining beyond the point of inflation is a ridiculous gesture to make in this sort of time.
Cutting 7% of income to preserve over 1000 people's jobs? And they're upset about that?
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you're so clever and class less and free
But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see

A working class hero is something to be.
#16
ITT: TS can't spell the word "Onions", and everyone else has yet to realize it and keeps on discussing said vegetables. Tards.
Last edited by FrauVfromPoB at Apr 1, 2011,
#17
they help the working class avoid exploitation from the rich. whats not to love?

the argument against them tends to come from the people who want to be able to exploit others so they can get higher profits for themselves. they are terrified of the unions and will do all they can to stop them. just look at cocacola in columbia.

(also my grandad was the head of NASUWT for 20 years)
now extra flamey
#19
Quote by Ikey
they help the working class avoid exploitation from the rich. whats not to love?

Only if they choose to help you. They will never have any qualms about forcing you to pay dues though, whether they actually lend you their services or not.
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#20
Quote by rgrockr
Only if they choose to help you. They will never have any qualms about forcing you to pay dues though, whether they actually lend you their services or not.

i still respect a lot of the unions, though i do have to admit quite a few of the british ones seemed to get a bit close to new labour...

though recently they are becoming a big anticuts force exactly what we need

edit:and i think it is very important that they arnt left or right, just saying what the members think
now extra flamey
Last edited by Ikey at Apr 1, 2011,
#21
Quote by Ikey
i still respect a lot of the unions, though i do have to admit quite a few of the british ones seemed to get a bit close to new labour...

though recently they are becoming a big anticuts force exactly what we need

Well I don't claim to know much about the British unions, but over here, one of my teachers was getting fired (long story, but he did the right thing and got criticized for it), and he decided to go to the unions for help (because obviously they would help him, since he paid mandatory dues his whole career). Turns out, they don't cover ROP teachers.

Case and point: Some union practices are unethical, since they have mandatory dues but not mandatory protection.
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#23
Quote by Wylde_Guitarist
I believe unions had their place in history but aren't needed anymore. Just look at one of the biggest companies in the world who has never even had a union and thrived, Ford. In fact back in the day Henry Ford used to hire thugs to beat up people who were talking about starting up a Union. He new it would be poison to the company.
Ahh, the good old days where coercion is somehow remembered fondly. We could also take the example of the Triangle factory fire of 1911 and say that they, and their workers (mostly the workers), would have profited greatly from unions and regulations. When I say profited, I mean: not burned to death in a fire.
#24
I believe that it's actually posted in the textile industry unions that every employee has the right to not be on fire.


... I'm sorry, that's bad.

I hope that when I graduate college, there will still be a teacher's union for me to be a part of.
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#25
Quote by 剣 斧 血
I first read the title too quickly and thought it said 'Unicorns', I shall now depart.

Hahaha, this!
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#26
fuck 'em.

theyre all corrupt and theyre muddled with political agendas. all the larger ones act as lobby groups and funnel large donations to political candidates. while they generally increase wages in the sector, they always lower over all employment in the sector.

we dont need them anymore.
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#27
What? I thought this thread was about onions.

Edit: I wish I would have waited to fully grasp the topic before voting.


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Last edited by jemjabella42 at Apr 1, 2011,
#28
Quote by jemjabella42
What? I thought this thread was about onions.

That's what I thought too.

OT: I support workers' rights. But I can also see why people don't like unions. My mom owns a small business and unionized workers could hurt business a lot, so she tends to hire non-union workers. just felt like sharing.
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#30
Quote by Cianyx
Unions set out to destroy the ones they claim to protect


That is a heavy claim. Elaborate?
"The future's uncertain, and The End is always near."
-Jim Morrison
#31
I'm a Musician's Union member. Pretty much essential for me, I do some freelance work, and it's fairly common for people to not pay up.
#32
I have to decide soon which teachers union to join. I'll probably go with ATL since they say the most sensible things.


Unions are ALWAYS necessary.
#33
Unions are a necessity to ensure workers are not taken advantage of, as are certain restrictions on the power of said Unions to ensure they don't abuse their powers and monopolize the work force.
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#34
Quote by SlinkyBlue
That is a heavy claim. Elaborate?

What purpose do unions serve? It exists to supposedly protect the marginal worker, but it's usually due to union actions that the marginal worker gets cut. A firm does not have an infinite amount of resources. So, if a union pushes for a higher minimum pay rise or benefits, a firm cannot pay for all of it. Therefore, in order to meet the demands of unions, they would need to shaft some other workers. These usually are the inexperienced and young workers (marginalised workers, those whom the firm suffers least from firing). Union workers, typically those with seniority, are protected in this process. Hence you see how senior union workers would be so enthusiastic to push for higher benefits; high enough to restrict competition and low enough so that they won't get cut. Pay rise isn't the only thing included, traditionally, unions have been in support for a minimum child work age, restricted immigration etc. Furthermore, as we artificially raise the wage rate, you would find an influx of workers into that sector thus leading to greater unemployment

Quote by SlinkyBlue
Also incorrect. Marx wrote about the labor "reserve army" of laborers. Large businesses hold the advantage over their employees in view of the fact that there's practically a mob of unemployed workers who are ready and willing to start work immediatelly when one of the employees quits.

Too general of a statement to speak of. To simply say that workers do not have the same bargaining power is quite an oversimplification. You would need to look at the overall context eg. the line of work and the marginal productivity of the worker. If a worker goes up to the employer and demands a pay rise, the employer does not immediately fire him. If he did, he probably wouldn't survive in the business for long. The employer would begin weighing the employee's marginal productivity and compare it with the potential he might be getting. If a worker is extremely diligent, the employer would be less likely to fire him and risk looking for other perhaps less skilled workers (a high turnover is typically costly for business). Then there is also the case on whether the job supply and demand is inelastic or elastic. A job at Macdonalds would find you replaced really fast if you drop below your marginal productivity (because it's an easy job) whereas an employer would be reluctant to drop a specialised worker.
#37
I can't get over the arguement that they think teachers are taking all their money but how much exactly did they spend on wall street?

Saw the Daily Show when they talked about that, shanannigans
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#38
Coming from an extremely blue collar family, I'd have to say that unions are for the better. The Teamsters helped my grandfather out a lot when he worked for them and even after his retirement. I believe that collective bargaining is necessary in the workplace
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#40
Quote by Butt Rayge



Unions!


HAHA thats exactly what i read when reading the thread title. Then I realized what the thread was actually about and realized my mistake and now I'm dissapointed.
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