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#1
Hey all.
How do I know which key change will do there and which one will do there etc.
Also what modes will switch smoothly.
#2
Key changes are usually best placed for the bridge/guitar solo. Major to minor is probably the strongest. Or raise the key by a semitone in the last chorus for a cheesy Eurovision-style ending
Quote by Andron17
Go away, I have an erection.


Bassist for Half My Kingdom.
#3
What do you know about Theory:

Writing out Major and Minor Keys, in all keys?
Harmonic analysis and notation?
Diatonic Harmony?

I can guess, probably nothing, because you're asking how to "change modes smoothly".

I'm not trying to blast you here, but you are asking things that you do not have the foundation to understand the answer.

I don't understand the persistent reluctance to learn this.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 7, 2011,
#4
yeah you could try going from major to minor or vise versa, like if your in e minor, go to g major. you could also try using the parallel mode, so if your in e minor, change to e major etc. other popular ones to modulate to would be the chord of VI, so if your in e minor, modulate to c etc. you can modulate to anything really and each has a different sound depending on where your going etc, so try out a few and see which one you like best.

also, do you know theory? cos one way to modulate if you understand theory is to use a chord that's common to both keys, and then put V-I in the new key. so say your in e minor and want to modulate to the dominant (b minor). write out the chords of both keys and see which match. for instance, using C major for that would be hard (although it could work if you use it as a neapolitan 6th in the new key) because it's not usually found in B minor. however, e minor is in both keys, chord i in e minor and chord iv in b minor, so you could go e minor, f# major b minor (iv-V-i). although if you don't understand theory ignore this last bit!
#5
Listen to songs that employ a key change:

George Harrison : While my Guitar Gently Weeps, My Sweet Lord
Eric Clapton: Layla
Johnny Cash: I walk the line -- that classic walk up a semitone
The Who : My Generation

Forget modes .... just change keys and stay focused on the major or minor key that you are using and moving to.

"Mode" is a term flagrantly overused by guitar players when they mean "scale" or, even more precisely, "Fingering". As far as modern western music is concerned, there are two modes -- major and minor. There are all sorts of shades created by the choice of harmony and melody -- but trying to nail all of that down as modal shifts makes everything far more complicated than it need be.
#6
As was mentioned a good place is for or during the guitar solo, or between parts - from verse to chorus or just for the bridge etc.

A common switch is to go up a perfect fourth. Very common in the middle 8 for early rock'nroll numbers but still very common even today. Switching between relative major and minor (Am to C for example).

You can try switching from parallal major to parallel minor or vice versa which can sound fantastic. I love the way the chorus of Six Blade Knife uses Dm to open the "chorus" but resolves on a D Major and then uses the D major to pivot back into Am territory. And the phrasing in that song is wonderful - good ol knopfler.

Norweigen Wood is a better example of a major minor tonality switch. It switches between D Mixolydian and D Dorian (actually it's E but I play it without the capo and down a whole step in D so deal with it). The verse is a wonderful (Mixolydian) melody moving over a static D major harmony.

Then it uses "Direct Modulation" to go into Dm. (That means it just goes straight into Dm without using any "setting up".)

At the end of the chorus the song sets up the change with a iim V7 I (the I being D major) so this time they use the iim V7 as pivot chords that can be part of either key so there is a pivot from one key to the other. This is "Pivot Modulation". Using chords that serve a function in both keys in order to set up a change from one to the other.

The Beatles were extremely proficient at changing keys when they wanted. This is one of many examples you could look at from their catalogue. But it's a good one because it uses two types of modulation.

You can also switch between completely different keys using those same techniques.

Another technique I've heard a few times but can't think of where off the top of my head is to use chromatic scale runs to move up to the new key.

You can also use a cycle of fifths to target the new key.

There are a ton of examples of the Truck Driver's Modulation - this is when you simply shift the key at the end of a song during a repetitive outro to give it a lift. I used to despise this as cliche and felt it was almost like cheating.

I had an argument with my daughter about this (Westlife do it a lot and she was defending them). I said it was a cheap trick that took no talent or creative thought and that it made Westlife a band of cheap tricks that lacked creative genius or intellectual substance. She countered but it works dad. They take things that are proven to work put it all together beautifully and make music that many many people the world over totally love - that takes creativity and even genius. Besides Dad, what's wrong with exploiting something that works? I had no reply.

So as an example here is Uptown Girl The original didn't have the key change but they do it at about 3:26. Here's a list of some other artists that do this too. http://www.gearchange.org/browse_by_artist.html

The door is open to go anywhere with a modulation you just have to know where you want to go and then figure out a way to get there.
Si
#7
Quote by Zen Skin
Listen to songs that employ a key change:

George Harrison : While my Guitar Gently Weeps, My Sweet Lord
Eric Clapton: Layla
Johnny Cash: I walk the line -- that classic walk up a semitone
The Who : My Generation

Forget modes .... just change keys and stay focused on the major or minor key that you are using and moving to.

"Mode" is a term flagrantly overused by guitar players when they mean "scale" or, even more precisely, "Fingering". As far as modern western music is concerned, there are two modes -- major and minor. There are all sorts of shades created by the choice of harmony and melody -- but trying to nail all of that down as modal shifts makes everything far more complicated than it need be.
In layla they go whole steps.
#8
Quote by Sean0913
What do you know about Theory:

Writing out Major and Minor Keys, in all keys?
Harmonic analysis and notation?
Diatonic Harmony?

I can guess, probably nothing, because you're asking how to "change modes smoothly".

I'm not trying to blast you here, but you are asking things that you do not have the foundation to understand the answer.

I don't understand the persistent reluctance to learn this.

Best,

Sean

I understand the music of Vai...
I can harmonise his chord and name them.
I know Major and Minor keys and all modes.
I don't know what diatonic mean but I know what tonic means which is like the ionian mode, and di means 2 or something like that.
So I guess 2 octave scales?
And yes I do know them.
#9
Quote by liampje
I understand the music of Vai...
I can harmonise his chord and name them.
I know Major and Minor keys and all modes.
I don't know what diatonic mean but I know what tonic means which is like the ionian mode, and di means 2 or something like that.
So I guess 2 octave scales?
And yes I do know them.

not sure if serious....
#10
Quote by liampje
I understand the music of Vai...
I can harmonise his chord and name them.
I know Major and Minor keys and all modes.
I don't know what diatonic mean but I know what tonic means which is like the ionian mode, and di means 2 or something like that.
So I guess 2 octave scales?
And yes I do know them.

Nah bro dia means "through" and tonic means "tone"

Diatonic goes through the tones.

It is a term that refers to the major and minor scales.

Or it refers to a seven note scale that spreads an octave into five whole steps and two half steps in which the half steps are as far away from each other as possible. (That is they have two and three whole steps between them on either side - such as in the major scale).

Some people also include the melodic and harmonic minor scales in the term diatonic.

He was asking if you understand functional harmony diatonic to the major or minor scales. This is how a tonic is established and how different chords of the major or minor scale will create a sense of moving away and then back toward the tonic through tension and resolution.
Si
#11
Quote by Zen Skin

"Mode" is a term flagrantly overused by guitar players when they mean "scale" or, even more precisely, "Fingering". As far as modern western music is concerned, there are two modes -- major and minor. There are all sorts of shades created by the choice of harmony and melody -- but trying to nail all of that down as modal shifts makes everything far more complicated than it need be.
Dissagree.
Modes do decide alot of the ambience.
Like you have lydian which gives you a maj 7 with 4 whole steps in a row giving it a dreamy whole tone scale-like sound.
Mixolydian has a dominant 7 giving it another ambience.
Phrygian for an example gives you a minor tonality with a flattened second in comparision with the aeolian (regular minor) giving it a very rough tone.
#12
hi liam,

for the love of god by steve vai starts around a "pentonic minor" melodies. i think the chords are something like Em9 and Am9 a wise choice of mode would be "A" aeolian mode.

im pretty sure at some point there is a chord called Fmaj9#11 which is basically an f major chord with the notes of an E minor chord added to it . this is the perfect tonality for the lydian mode.

so you could take a minor pentatonic melody and then move to a lydian melody by transposing one semitone higher .

Iem | Am | em | Am |
(pentatonic minor / E aeolian ...

|F | F | Em | Em |
(F lydian )

that's the only steve vai song i know much about . but i hope it still gives you some ideas for using modes with creativeness .
Last edited by ibanez1511 at Apr 8, 2011,
#13
im questioning the TS' fundamental musical knowledge, mainly because if he knew his theory properly this wouldn't be a question.

or it might be a language barrier thing i dunno
Last edited by z4twenny at Apr 8, 2011,
#14
Quote by liampje
Dissagree.
Modes do decide alot of the ambience.
Like you have lydian which gives you a maj 7 with 4 whole steps in a row giving it a dreamy whole tone scale-like sound.
Mixolydian has a dominant 7 giving it another ambience.
Phrygian for an example gives you a minor tonality with a flattened second in comparision with the aeolian (regular minor) giving it a very rough tone.


There are 4 well defined scales that hit the mark for 90% of Western Music -- Major (based on the antiquated Ionion mode) and natural, harmonic and melodic minor (based on antiquated Aeolian and Dorian modes as well as the desire for composers to use a leading tone). Modality in contemporary Western music is completely encompassed by "minor" and "Major".

There is not a lot of practical application of church modes after the Renaissance until they were rediscovered in folk song (Dvorak's Slavonic Dances, for example) and some post-bop jazz (Miles Davis' "Kind of Blue" album). They were once needed to express what pitches to use in Gregorian chants. Now that we have sharps and flats in or music nomenclature and 12 tones to an octave, we simply do not need to talk about modes ever. Anything that you want to express musically can be done by simply stating scale degrees and accidentals -- it's MUCH simpler and it reduces the already complicated vocabulary of music.

You can go and by a book that talks about the history and variety of cadences ... plagal, "amen", false, weak, "backdoor" and so one and so forth. I have read maybe 5 threads on guitar forums about cadences and yet almost any thread about music theory on a guitar forum mentions modes ... why?? Cadences are contemporary and have immediate practical applications. Church modes are almost completely antiquated. It's an obsession of guitar players that baffles other musicians. There was just a thread about passing tones here and most posters have no idea what a passing tone is. But every guitarist learns these stupid 600 year old modes .. why?
#15
Quote by Zen Skin
But every guitarist learns these stupid 600 year old modes .. why?

You do know that a chord progression starting on the second note of a major scale is automatically a dorian progression right.
And 90% of western music is covered in major and minor scales, but D dorian are the same notes as C major or because this is a minor mode A minor would be better.
The modes color it up.
And have you ever STUDIED Steve Vai or Joe Satriani,you'll see modes are very important to both.
Also modes brings structure in your solos and make them sound less random.
Soloing in E lydian where the chord progression goes from Emaj to E/F#maj.
You wouldn't play like G#minor arpeggios.
Soloing in E lydian will be that you highlight the notes that make them different from a tonic major scale.
#17
Quote by ibanez1511
hi liam,

for the love of god by steve vai starts around a "pentonic minor" melodies. i think the chords are something like Em9 and Am9 a wise choice of mode would be "A" aeolian mode.

im pretty sure at some point there is a chord called Fmaj9#11 which is basically an f major chord with the notes of an E minor chord added to it . this is the perfect tonality for the lydian mode.

so you could take a minor pentatonic melody and then move to a lydian melody by transposing one semitone higher .

Iem | Am | em | Am |
(pentatonic minor / E aeolian ...

|F | F | Em | Em |
(F lydian )

that's the only steve vai song i know much about . but i hope it still gives you some ideas for using modes with creativeness .

The chords are actually Eminadd9 and e/Fmaj.
I recognize because of the minor half step interval to major that this is phrygian.
And I think he starts of with pentatonic shapes because pentatonic shapes are also covered in the major and minor scales.
#20
TS, listen to zen. you said that any progression starting on the supertonic degree is in the dorian mode, and you called phrygian a tonality.

forget everything you know. start from scratch, and work your way up. the best way to know which change is best is to use your ear. but as far as theory is concerned, you have a lot more work to do. for now just use your ear.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#21
Quote by Zen Skin
Do if I play Gmin7 to C7 to FMaj7 ... I am in Dorian mode -- back with the monks in the dark ages.


Riiiiiiight.

Kid -- take some theory.
Could you at least explain me why you won't be in dorian?
Last edited by liampje at Apr 8, 2011,
#22
Quote by AeolianWolf
TS, listen to zen. you said that any progression starting on the supertonic degree is in the dorian mode, and you called phrygian a tonality.

forget everything you know. start from scratch, and work your way up. the best way to know which change is best is to use your ear. but as far as theory is concerned, you have a lot more work to do. for now just use your ear.

Wno the hell is TS.
But if it's about me I called phrygian a mode.
And when is a progression dorian if you know it.
#23
Quote by liampje
Wno the hell is TS.
But if it's about me I called phrygian a mode.
And when is a progression dorian if you know it.


you are.

1)

Quote by liampje
Phrygian for an example gives you a minor tonality


the only thing that gives you a minor tonality is a minor key. phrygian gives you modality. you could argue that a composition in E phrygian is in the key of E, since it centers around E, and you'd be technically correct, but that's about as far as you'll go.

2) it's difficult to construct a progression in accordance with a mode, but it's not impossible. you're saying that the progression ||: Dm7 - G9 - Cmaj7 :|| is in D dorian, but it's clearly a ii-V-I in C major. just because it starts on a D minor chord doesn't make it D dorian. modes are best used with vamps or drones. a classic D dorian vamp would be something like ||: Dm6 - G7/D :|| or ||: Dm6 - Em7 :||. if you can extend these vamps to include other chords that don't warp your modality into a relative tonality, then you can have a progression in a mode.

i'm not telling you that your knowledge is flawed for my own satisfaction, nor for the sake of putting you down. i'm telling you this so you don't completely screw your understanding of music up.

as for sean's progression - ||: Gm7 - C7 - Fmaj7 :|| this wouldn't be in dorian because the C7 - Fmaj7 strongly suggests an authentic cadence (V-I, the strongest type of cadence in tonal music) in F major.

and if you've really ever studied steve vai or joe satriani, you'll know that they maybe have two or three modal works each. using phrygian dominant over a progression in minor is not modal. it's using phrygian dominant (in this case, a minor scale with a couple of accidentals) over a progression in a minor key. it's extremely tonal.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
Last edited by AeolianWolf at Apr 8, 2011,
#24
Quote by Zen Skin

"Mode" is a term flagrantly overused by guitar players when they mean "scale" or, even more precisely, "Fingering". As far as modern western music is concerned, there are two modes -- major and minor. There are all sorts of shades created by the choice of harmony and melody -- but trying to nail all of that down as modal shifts makes everything far more complicated than it need be.

I have yet to hear a guitarist say "Dude, I totally moded this groupie yesterday."

/bad joke

OT:
TS means thread starter (or topic starter).
It's not Dorian because the chord progression doesn't resolve to D. To play a mode, one has to use a drone note or a modal vamp.

Most guitarist who think they know about modes know how to spell the modes and how they're related to the major scale but nothing about how to use it.
^^The above is a Cryptic Metaphor^^


"To know the truth of history is to realize its ultimate myth and its inevitable ambiguity." Everything is made up and the facts don't matter.


MUSIC THEORY LINK
#25
(@Wolfy)Don't you mean G7 for the dorian vamp?

Another thing to note about satriani's use of modes is that whenever he does use them, he keeps the tonal center moving. Staying in one mode for an entire piece will be boring.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at Apr 8, 2011,
#26
Quote by griffRG7321
(@Wolfy)Don't you mean G7 for the dorian vamp?

Another thing to note about satriani's use of modes is that whenever he does use them, he keeps the tonal center moving. Staying in one mode for an entire piece will be boring.


...yes, i do. great catch, man.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#27
Quote by AeolianWolf
you are.

1)


the only thing that gives you a minor tonality is a minor key. phrygian gives you modality. you could argue that a composition in E phrygian is in the key of E, since it centers around E, and you'd be technically correct, but that's about as far as you'll go.

2) it's difficult to construct a progression in accordance with a mode, but it's not impossible. you're saying that the progression ||: Dm7 - G9 - Cmaj7 :|| is in D dorian, but it's clearly a ii-V-I in C major. just because it starts on a D minor chord doesn't make it D dorian. modes are best used with vamps or drones. a classic D dorian vamp would be something like ||: Dm6 - G7/D :|| or ||: Dm6 - Em7 :||. if you can extend these vamps to include other chords that don't warp your modality into a relative tonality, then you can have a progression in a mode.

i'm not telling you that your knowledge is flawed for my own satisfaction, nor for the sake of putting you down. i'm telling you this so you don't completely screw your understanding of music up.

as for sean's progression - ||: Gm7 - C7 - Fmaj7 :|| this wouldn't be in dorian because the C7 - Fmaj7 strongly suggests an authentic cadence (V-I, the strongest type of cadence in tonal music) in F major.

and if you've really ever studied steve vai or joe satriani, you'll know that they maybe have two or three modal works each. using phrygian dominant over a progression in minor is not modal. it's using phrygian dominant (in this case, a minor scale with a couple of accidentals) over a progression in a minor key. it's extremely tonal.

So when I play like Emaj to Fmaj no drone or something.
And I would highlight the Emaj triad (E,G#,B) and play the #4 often it wouldn't be lydian?
What would it be then?
And how would I be able to approach lydian without having an E drone?
#28
Ok another question.
If I would play in E lydian and highlight the E triad tones(E G# B) and the #4 against a backing track that has Emaj to Fmaj no drone or vamp,how would I need to call it?
Emaj triad tones with the lydian scale over a not lydian chord progression?
#29
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Don't make the mistake that just because you can copy Vai and look up the names of chords, that you know what you're talking about. I can see right through you. Don't think that just because you know what a Maj7#11 is that you're suddenly knowledgable about modal playing. That's wrong too.

In short, everything you say is wrong. It's not for us to prove or defend or teach you, its for you to go learn for yourself why you are wrong, and it has nothing to do with how well you can copy Vai. You aren't Steve Vai, and you don't have the understanding of Steve Vai. Vai knows his theory, you do not.

By the way, a chord that cycles from one to the next, i.e. E to F, is a vamp, but of course you missed the Half step and if you think you're going to play Lydian over this...knock yourself out.

When you finally decide to get serious about learning theory, and realize that right now you know nothing, then we can help you. Until then, I'll cruise and let others spoon feed and wipe your mouth for you.

Best,

Sean
#30
@All the guys saying I need a drone.
This is from the book creative guitar 1 page 87.
''If you were jamming over an Am7-Bm7 progression,you'd have to use Dorian. You could establish this by pooling the notes...'' Etc.
So please don't say I don't know any theory.
The book is written by guitarist Guthrie Govan and I have a copy of the book and haven't read anything on the internet so no-one could mess with the text...
Here is a youtube vid of Guthrie Govan himself! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yPEewaalik
#31
You can parrot a lot of info, that's not in doubt - but you honestly don't understand it properly yet. And there's nothing wrong with that, nobody's born knowing everything - however not listening when somebody who obviously knows a lot more than you do tells you you're wrong is stubborn and foolish.

Sean summed it up with "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". You've introduced yourself to some advanced concepts without fully understanding the basics that would have enabled you to absorb and digest them properly.

Short answer is, you're misguided here, Sean, Zen and others are right - and if you listen to them you'll hopefully learn why you're wrong and understand things a whole lot better. If you choose to ignore them or argue the toss then they'll get bored with you and go help someone else who's willing to learn...your choice.
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#32
Quote by steven seagull
You can parrot a lot of info, that's not in doubt - but you honestly don't understand it properly yet. And there's nothing wrong with that, nobody's born knowing everything - however not listnenign when somebody who obviously knows a lot more than you do tells you you're wrong is stubborn and foolish.

Sean summed it up with "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing". You've introduced yourself to some advanced concepts without fully understanding the basics that would have enabled you to absorb and digest them properly.

Have you seen my post where I citated creative guitar (book) on modes where I was right?
#33
No one is arguing with what Guthrie Govan is saying, Guthrie is right. That's not even complicated or novel, it just shows he knows what he's talking about. If you want to copy his words and claim "knowledge" then why do you need to know how to change keys?

Answer... because you don't know theory. Guthrie Govan never said "Start on the ii chord of a scale and play chords from that key and you're automatically in Dorian"

Or to quote you directly...

"if I play Gmin7 to C7 to FMaj7 I'm in Dorian"

and

"You do know that a chord progression starting on the second note of a major scale is automatically a dorian progression right."

Even he's not that dumb to claim that. In fact, you play me that ii V I progression and manage to convincingly play Dorian and sound Modal over it, thereby establishing G Dorian, and reach topical consensus, that "wow, he did it", I'll PayPal you $50.00 immediately.

Free money mate, just say the word. One way or another you're gonna learn something from this topic.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 9, 2011,
#34
Quote by liampje
Have you seen my post where I citated creative guitar (book) on modes where I was right?

Yes, and that doesn't change the fact that you're NOT right in your understanding of what it says.

Like I said, anyone can read a book and repeat what it says, that doesn't necessarily mean they fully understood what they were reading.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
People with a duck for their avatar always give good advice.

...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#35
modes dont mean anything. all that matters is that what you play sounds good. isnt that what music is all about? people get too caught up in the technical side of things that, in the long run, dont mean anything. if you can create something that sounds good, does it matter if you know for sure what mode its in, and what degree of the scale youre playing and all this other crap? the most important thing is to have a good ear for what sounds cool, and practicing to improve your ear is sooooo much more beneficial than learning trivial concepts like modes.
#36
Quote by pointblankpb10
modes dont mean anything. all that matters is that what you play sounds good. isnt that what music is all about? people get too caught up in the technical side of things that, in the long run, dont mean anything. if you can create something that sounds good, does it matter if you know for sure what mode its in, and what degree of the scale youre playing and all this other crap? the most important thing is to have a good ear for what sounds cool, and practicing to improve your ear is sooooo much more beneficial than learning trivial concepts like modes.

My ears are good and yes it does bother me not knowing my music.
#37
Quote by Sean0913
No one is arguing with what Guthrie Govan is saying, Guthrie is right. That's not even complicated or novel, it just shows he knows what he's talking about. If you want to copy his words and claim "knowledge" then why do you need to know how to change keys?

Answer... because you don't know theory. Guthrie Govan never said "Start on the ii chord of a scale and play chords from that key and you're automatically in Dorian"

Or to quote you directly...

"if I play Gmin7 to C7 to FMaj7 I'm in Dorian"

and

"You do know that a chord progression starting on the second note of a major scale is automatically a dorian progression right."

Even he's not that dumb to claim that. In fact, you play me that ii V I progression and manage to convincingly play Dorian and sound Modal over it, thereby establishing G Dorian, and reach topical consensus, that "wow, he did it", I'll PayPal you $50.00 immediately.

Free money mate, just say the word. One way or another you're gonna learn something from this topic.

Best,

Sean

Ok it was stupid from me to say automatically.
But I was right about the fact you don't need a drone for modes...
And the backing track thing wasn't a succes but can you explain me why instead of zen who didn't gave an answer to my other question.
#38
Quote by steven seagull
Yes, and that doesn't change the fact that you're NOT right in your understanding of what it says.

Like I said, anyone can read a book and repeat what it says, that doesn't necessarily mean they fully understood what they were reading.

What don't I understand?
Any possible ideas what?
#40
Well I dunno how much help this will be... but with modulation from key to key you basically have 5 choices
1. Common chord mod
2. Common tone mod
3. Direct mod
4. Sequential/ phrase mod
5. Monophonic mod
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