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#1
So I was thinking the other day about how each particular amp usually has some quality that you love but some quality that is lacking, but can be found in another amp.

Why doesn't someone make some sort of "super amp"? Maybe professionals do this already but I have not heard of it?

For example, you love the sound of a diezal or uberschall but want a crispier clean (say shiva clean) Take your amp head and mod it to include the shiva circuit in it? But you also love Marshall JCM 800 as well...include that circuit in it as well?

Im not talking about short cutting...(for example modeling amps). Im talking about building legit circuits to exact specifications and incorporating them into one amp head. Maybe you need more room for tubes/transformers? Maybe develop a more efficient design when it comes to space - you're amp would not be much bigger than a typical 100 watt head.

Imagine owning a 100lb behemoth head that has an Engl/bogner/deizal gain, fender cleans, maybe even your favorite pedal is modded into the amp as well. Maybe you want to stick a fender Tubescreamer and vintage MXR phase 90 circuit in the amp head as well? You can control these pedals via external footswitch.

Just a thought....
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Last edited by psychosylocibin at Apr 7, 2011,
#2
sounds like it would over heat like a mother ****er.
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#3
Yea its possible in theory but who wants the amp head alone to be the size of a fullstack??
Get an axe-fx
#6
Short summary: You can do whatever you want circuit-wise, but it would end up like the all-star game in baseball: lots of talent on paper, but totally stupid and impractical in practice.

Long version:
The first problem with that is that often, especially with amps of very large gain difference, the power amp design won't allow for certain types of tones. For example, you could have a Fender type clean channel on a Bogner but since the bogner has to have a real stiff, heavy filtering section to keep it stable under high gain, it's not going to sound like a fender.

The second problem is that it's totally impractical, from dozens of standpoints. More complicated circuits get expensive, they interact in unexpected ways, and perhaps most importantly, the benefits are tremendously small. For example, you say that you want a super high gain amp with fender cleans. No matter how well you design that amp, it's never going to have cleans as good as an amp designed only to do a great fender clean. Then what you've done is made a really expensive amp that does two things nearly as well as two less expensive individual amps. Unless you get to the Axe-fx, where you have dozens of amp models, the idea of a 'super amp' is pretty impractical. If you're truly designing two "whole amps" into one head, you might as well just have two amps. If you're not, then you're compromising, and it's not going to be as good.

Case in point: ever tried a Peavey Penta?

Edit: I don't mean to say that you couldn't make an amp with 2 or 3 very differently voiced channels that you really like. What I'm saying is that if you approach it thinking it's going to be a no-compromises, be-all end-all amp, you're dreaming.
#7
A lot of professionals use multiple amp setups.
What?! There's a clean channel on my amp?!

Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
omfg i totally forgot about that, you sir are jesus christ.
#8
My PHaez is like that. Its a daisycutter (slo like), in the high gain channel, and has a fender blackface circuit for cleans.

Thats probably explains its size.

Lately I found the best thing is an amp modeller, with an evans amp. EVerything off for cleans to use the amps cleans..., and simulations on for high gain. Its a beautiful thing, and portable as it can get in a live gigging rig.
#9
Quote by Roc8995
Short summary: You can do whatever you want circuit-wise, but it would end up like the all-star game in baseball: lots of talent on paper, but totally stupid and impractical in practice.

Long version:
The first problem with that is that often, especially with amps of very large gain difference, the power amp design won't allow for certain types of tones. For example, you could have a Fender type clean channel on a Bogner but since the bogner has to have a real stiff, heavy filtering section to keep it stable under high gain, it's not going to sound like a fender.

The second problem is that it's totally impractical, from dozens of standpoints. More complicated circuits get expensive, they interact in unexpected ways, and perhaps most importantly, the benefits are tremendously small. For example, you say that you want a super high gain amp with fender cleans. No matter how well you design that amp, it's never going to have cleans as good as an amp designed only to do a great fender clean. Then what you've done is made a really expensive amp that does two things nearly as well as two less expensive individual amps. Unless you get to the Axe-fx, where you have dozens of amp models, the idea of a 'super amp' is pretty impractical. If you're truly designing two "whole amps" into one head, you might as well just have two amps. If you're not, then you're compromising, and it's not going to be as good.

Case in point: ever tried a Peavey Penta?



interesting points.....makes sense.

Now on another note since you mentioned AXFX- if you had enough processing power, couldn't you design a modeler that is virtually indistinguisable from the real thing. After all, the "tube amp" sound is in the sound waveform..why not just model it. Hell, replicate a tube amp waveform of XXXX amp by finding the correct algorithim and stick an advanced modeling enginer made of 50 quad core processors - instant undistinguisable perfect tube tone.


I assume since Ive never heard of a peavey penta, that is must fail pretty horribly.
Current Gear

Bogner Uberschall
Mesa Dual Rectifier (Old Version)
Orange Closed Back 2x12 Cab with V30's
PRS Custom 24 Top 10 with 57/08 pickups
Schecter Hellraiser
Breedlove Atlas AD20
A bunch of pedals
#10
Quote by psychosylocibin
interesting points.....makes sense.

Now on another note since you mentioned AXFX- if you had enough processing power, couldn't you design a modeler that is virtually indistinguisable from the real thing. After all, the "tube amp" sound is in the sound waveform..why not just model it. Hell, replicate a tube amp waveform of XXXX amp by finding the correct algorithim and stick an advanced modeling enginer made of 50 quad core processors - instant undistinguisable perfect tube tone.


I assume since Ive never heard of a peavey penta, that is must fail pretty horribly.


ya, its called the axe-fx. Its not identical, especially the way it "feels" when you play it. But sonicly, its almost indistinguishable when you tweak it enough. Sometimes "enough" is a lot though...
What?! There's a clean channel on my amp?!

Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
omfg i totally forgot about that, you sir are jesus christ.
#11
It's not that simple. You can't just 'measure a waveform.' I think any of the engineers at line 6 would cry if you tried to tell them it was just a matter of processing power. It's not. These amps are dynamic systems, and there are literally thousands of variable inputs and interactions that go into creating their sound.

Finding the waveform is very analogous to mapping human DNA. It has been done, but it cost billions of dollars and decades of research by brilliant people. Modeling is getting there, and I really believe that at some point it's going to be good enough to replace tubes, but the issue is in the modeling, not the processing.
#12
It'd still require AD/DA conversion, which is lossy in itself.
Valves "process" your sound in a way that is gunna be pretty difficult to replicate digitally, since computers either do something or they dont, it doesnt really allow for the variance, nuances and response that valves/analogue circuitry has because of how inefficient it is.

Not saying it cant be done, but we arent there yet.
Last edited by beckyjc at Apr 7, 2011,
#13
A lot of the 'advantages' of amps are mutually exclusive. For example, the vintage 'sag' of old tweed amps versus the solid state rectifier crisp attack on some modern metal amps. I feel like running a good modeler through a good power amp/speaker cab will get the job done.
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#14
Quote by Roc8995
It's not that simple. You can't just 'measure a waveform.' I think any of the engineers at line 6 would cry if you tried to tell them it was just a matter of processing power. It's not. These amps are dynamic systems, and there are literally thousands of variable inputs and interactions that go into creating their sound.

Finding the waveform is very analogous to mapping human DNA. It has been done, but it cost billions of dollars and decades of research by brilliant people. Modeling is getting there, and I really believe that at some point it's going to be good enough to replace tubes, but the issue is in the modeling, not the processing.


To elaborate on what I said above, we put the axefx next to my biddies mesa boogie roadster for a tone test. The built in model was really, really close. We threw one of the axefx digital eq "pedals" in front of the amp and it was a perfect copy. I was very amazed. It didn't do my splawn very well though...
What?! There's a clean channel on my amp?!

Quote by GoodOl'trashbag
omfg i totally forgot about that, you sir are jesus christ.
#15
Randall MTS is what you are looking for i think.
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#16
Quote by psychosylocibin


Imagine owning a 100lb behemoth head that has an Engl/bogner/deizal gain, fender cleans, maybe even your favorite pedal is modded into the amp as well. Maybe you want to stick a fender Tubescreamer and vintage MXR phase 90 circuit in the amp head as well? You can control these pedals via external footswitch.

Quote by psychosylocibin


favorite pedal is modded into the amp as well. Maybe you want to stick a fender Tubescreamer and vintage MXR phase 90 circuit in the amp head as well? You can control


Quote by psychosylocibin


Maybe you want to stick a fender Tubescreamer and vintage MXR phase 90

Quote by psychosylocibin


fender Tubescreamer


WAT


On a more serious note, this isn't a particularly practical way of doing things. The circuit would be pretty complicated and difficult to fix. It would be easier to have separate amps. And building pedals into the amp restricts their location in the signal chain and if you ever want to move it you would have to have an amp tech sort it out.

Basically it's impractical. Probably possible.

But still impractical.
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#18
This thread is great. And I would lvoe this amp. BUT I doubt these amp companies would team up. Maybe Bugera can pull it off.

But even if you could do it, make it small enough and cost efficient. It would still be lacking something.

There is always more.
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#19
Quote by psychosylocibin
After all, the "tube amp" sound is in the sound waveform..why not just model it. Hell, replicate a tube amp waveform of XXXX amp by finding the correct algorithim and stick an advanced modeling enginer made of 50 quad core processors - instant undistinguisable perfect tube tone.

yeah man, why don't no one just do that! It's as simple as that!
#20
Quote by WtrPlyr
yeah man, why don't no one just do that! It's as simple as that!



Come on, you telling me you don't have access to a supercomputer
Current Gear

Bogner Uberschall
Mesa Dual Rectifier (Old Version)
Orange Closed Back 2x12 Cab with V30's
PRS Custom 24 Top 10 with 57/08 pickups
Schecter Hellraiser
Breedlove Atlas AD20
A bunch of pedals
#22
It would cost a shit ton of money, be extremely heavy and be completely impractical.

Just buy a Diezel and a Splawn/Rivera/Orange and A/B/Y them if you REALLY need the versatility.
Quote by Dave_Mc
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#24
Quote by guitarpatrick66
Come on guys. Everybody knows the line 6 spider is the ultimate super amp.



True...I just paid 3 grand for mine.
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#25
Quote by Roc8995
Short summary: You can do whatever you want circuit-wise, but it would end up like the all-star game in baseball: lots of talent on paper, but totally stupid and impractical in practice.

Long version:
The first problem with that is that often, especially with amps of very large gain difference, the power amp design won't allow for certain types of tones. For example, you could have a Fender type clean channel on a Bogner but since the bogner has to have a real stiff, heavy filtering section to keep it stable under high gain, it's not going to sound like a fender.

The second problem is that it's totally impractical, from dozens of standpoints. More complicated circuits get expensive, they interact in unexpected ways, and perhaps most importantly, the benefits are tremendously small. For example, you say that you want a super high gain amp with fender cleans. No matter how well you design that amp, it's never going to have cleans as good as an amp designed only to do a great fender clean. Then what you've done is made a really expensive amp that does two things nearly as well as two less expensive individual amps. Unless you get to the Axe-fx, where you have dozens of amp models, the idea of a 'super amp' is pretty impractical. If you're truly designing two "whole amps" into one head, you might as well just have two amps. If you're not, then you're compromising, and it's not going to be as good.

Case in point: ever tried a Peavey Penta?

Edit: I don't mean to say that you couldn't make an amp with 2 or 3 very differently voiced channels that you really like. What I'm saying is that if you approach it thinking it's going to be a no-compromises, be-all end-all amp, you're dreaming.


+1

Couldn't have put it better myself.
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#26
i can do pretty good with my nitro+promod+bassman build some form of rack with that and space for pedals and rack gear, add in a midi switcher, and you would be good.

i want a diezel now. gas kicking in. but i wont get a diezel. first i am going to do some more building.
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#27
didnt line 6 just make something similar?
i think its the DT series.
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#28
Quote by maddnotez
This thread is great. And I would lvoe this amp. BUT I doubt these amp companies would team up. Maybe Bugera can pull it off.

But even if you could do it, make it small enough and cost efficient. It would still be lacking something.

There is always more.

Its only a matter of time.
#30
Quote by AcousticMirror
I could do it.



Do it up, Sign me as your first endorsee.....I sold zero records this year but next year will be different
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#31
Sounds like you just described the Randall M and Egnater modules.

And why not just buy an AxeFX. It's close enough.
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#32
ya i'll build something for the first person who can tell me what they want without using the words

clean
fender
marshall
vox
hiwatt
any brand names at all actually
british
crunch


there's more. i can't think of it right now.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#33
Chewy darkish middy and with good highs.

Get on it.
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#34
you could make this "super amp" with no compromises, but it woul probably be about 10 feet tall, weigh 1000 pounds, and cost 50000+

so the moral of the stroy is....buy the actual amps for less


oh, and acoustic mirror, when i hit notes on my low B i want it to go BOW BOW BOW and when i hit non-distorted chords i want it to sound like a gospel chorus is singing each note while standing in a circle around me with each of them singing into a mic being run through an eventide space and the edge's shimmer patch
Originally posted by primusfan
When you crank up the gain to 10 and switch to the lead channel, it actually sounds like you are unjustifiably bombing an innocent foreign land.


╠═══════╬═══════╣
τλε τρπ βπστλεπλσσδ
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#35
Quote by InanezGuitars44
you could make this "super amp" with no compromises, but it woul probably be about 10 feet tall, weigh 1000 pounds, and cost 50000+

so the moral of the stroy is....buy the actual amps for less


oh, and acoustic mirror, when i hit notes on my low B i want it to go BOW BOW BOW and when i hit non-distorted chords i want it to sound like a gospel chorus is singing each note while standing in a circle around me with each of them singing into a mic being run through an eventide space and the edge's shimmer patch


http://dl.dropbox.com/u/7394209/6v6ex.mp3
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#36
so AM, can you make me an amp that has the EXACT OPPOSITE tone of that clip? i'd buy it.
Originally posted by primusfan
When you crank up the gain to 10 and switch to the lead channel, it actually sounds like you are unjustifiably bombing an innocent foreign land.


╠═══════╬═══════╣
τλε τρπ βπστλεπλσσδ
╠═══════╬═══════╣
#37
Quote by AcousticMirror

ahh acoustic mirror.... proof that 10 grand worth of gear cant make a bad ear for tone and shit playing sound like angel sex.
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Last edited by the_white_bunny at Apr 7, 2011,
#39
Quote by InanezGuitars44
so AM, can you make me an amp that has the EXACT OPPOSITE tone of that clip? i'd buy it.


yeah there we go. that's how that works.

ya the little matchless clone i built is downstairs right now. i'll grab it to record in a bit.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#40
Quote by the_white_bunny
ahh acoustic mirror.... proof that 10 grand worth of gear cant make a bad ear for tone and shit playing sound like angel sex.


Someone sounds bitter.

Anyway, OP, what came to mind from your topic title would be the Randall RM series or the MTS. Of course, they have a pretty neutral power amp section, so they don't really nail the amps, but they get pretty close.
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