#1
I mastered the natural minor scale (I know all the notes across the fretboard)...... Now I want to master another scale. I really want to learn the harmonic minor or would it benefit me if I learnt the major scale first?

Thanks
#2
I like the minor harmonic.

The major scale, if you don't know it already would be a necessary step. I know it's just the minor scale but resolving to its third degreee instead, but there's a whole different mindset playing major as opposed to minor.
Last edited by Namaste196 at Apr 9, 2011,
#3
You know it all over the neck, that's not mastering it, that's just you remembering some shapes.

Learn the Major scale and the minor scales and make music with them.
#4
Quote by griffRG7321
You know it all over the neck, that's not mastering it, that's just you remembering some shapes.

Learn the Major scale and the minor scales and make music with them.

Yes, you should learn the theory and know how you can play the scales over chord progressions and make music from it
#5
I'm pretty new to theory. But I thought scales were like c major, c minor, a major, and b minor. Is there just an all encompassing natural minor scale? I'm a bit confused.
#6
The weight scale
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#8
I like your use of the word master I haven't used it since I was 7 and would say I mastered the slide at the park

And yea I would say learn the major scale next
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#9
Quote by Namaste196
Nup.

Lol thanks for the reply. Quick and to the point.
#10
Quote by FireFromTheVoid
I like your use of the word master I haven't used it since I was 7


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NANA NA NANA
NANA NA NANA
NA NA ANAN
A NA NANA

MASTER MAsTER
#12
I'd say learn major... and this is coming from a guy who disregards diatonic scales when writing music almost entirely. After you learn both the major and minor scales, modes will be easier to understand than if you only knew minor. You don't know what I'm talking about with modes yet, most likely, but after you "master" the major scale, then I'd suggest looking into that.
#13
the major scale. i doubt you've actually mastered the natural minor scale, but you should definatly spend a lot of time on the major scale.
all the best.
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#15
Quote by kodyk666
I'm pretty new to theory. But I thought scales were like c major, c minor, a major, and b minor. Is there just an all encompassing natural minor scale? I'm a bit confused.
Well, if you "know the major scale" or "the natural minor scale," that means you understand how to construct that scale on any given root, for example, G minor, F major, Ab minor, etc.

On topic, learn the major scale first, TS. Everything in modern music is relative to the major scale. Harmonic minor only has one note different than the natural minor, so there's really not much to learn anyway.
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Last edited by food1010 at Apr 9, 2011,
#16
Quote by Metallica_JHC21
Yes, you should learn the theory and know how you can play the scales over chord progressions and make music from it


I know those bro. >_>
I know how to construct scales and "stuff" aswell.


So am gonna go with major scale for now.
#17
Quote by MaddMann274
I know those bro. >_>
I know how to construct scales and "stuff" aswell.


So am gonna go with major scale for now.


then construct for me natural minor scales on Bb, C#, and Ab.

you don't actually have to do it here in the forum. you don't need to prove anything to me or anyone else. but if you can't do it within 10 seconds, you haven't "mastered" the natural minor scale. if you can't do it at all, you're don't even know it.
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#18
Quote by AeolianWolf
then construct for me natural minor scales on Bb, C#, and Ab.


Bb, C, Db, Eb, F, Gb, Ab
C#, D#, E, F#, G#, A, B
G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, F#

#19
Quote by MaddMann274


G#, A#, B, C#, D#, E, F#



Ab, Bb, Cb, Db, Eb, Fb, Gb
#20
newbie here. if i learn C Major scale. will i have to learn A-B etc. too? or you just learn major scale and arrange it for each note like using a formula or technic? maybe a stupid question but i am newbie thanks
#21
Fender,

Kind of, you start that same scale on a different root note, but the intervals remain the same, so the same thing you learned as a G Major scale, can be moved up 2 frets and now played on A and it's an A major scale. Knowing the notes on the neck is very useful for this kind of application. A formula is a good word for it. Also I reccomend the Major scale because everything that we understand about music theory is based around it as a starting point.

For example, if we say b3, what we mean is, if we took a regular Major scale and kept everything the same, but lowered the 3rd note of it by 1/2 step, that's the location and identification of the b3.

Hope that helps!

Best,

Sean
#23
go from Scales to Modes now. I liked what I saw at http://www.fretjam.com/guitar-modes-2.html, that looked like a really good introduction to including modes with scales...you want to hear a good example of neoclassical inclusion of Modes in modern (or at least semi-modern...) listen to Brian May guitar work in the song Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (off the top of my head)...it's gonna be fast, but with that song, there's tablature all over the internet for it, & a great short cut that I found, is Power Tabs...look in to Power Tabs...
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#24
Quote by Mazz-
go from Scales to Modes now. I liked what I saw at http://www.fretjam.com/guitar-modes-2.html, that looked like a really good introduction to including modes with scales...you want to hear a good example of neoclassical inclusion of Modes in modern (or at least semi-modern...) listen to Brian May guitar work in the song Bohemian Rhapsody by Queen (off the top of my head)...it's gonna be fast, but with that song, there's tablature all over the internet for it, & a great short cut that I found, is Power Tabs...look in to Power Tabs...


NO

Seriously, to the TS and you Mazz, stay away from modes. You clearly don't understand modes, or tonal harmony for that matter, and neither does the one who wrote that article.

Modes will not benefit either of you in your stage of musicianship, it will only mislead you. This may sound like I'm bringing you down, but that's just the nature of working with modes.
#25
Quote by MaddMann274
Ain't that the same?


to a guitarist who can't read music, yeah. i guess that explains the sarcasm face.

they sound the same, but that's it. if you still disagree, consider the properties of the words "shown" and "shone" or "buy" and "by" or any other homophones you can come up with.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#26
Chromatic scale

Wise words from Anthony Wellington, "The word chromatic comes from the Greek word chroma, which means color. If you wanna add color to your playing, learn how to use every note." (or something like that)
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#27
Quote by AeolianWolf
to a guitarist who can't read music, yeah. i guess that explains the sarcasm face.

they sound the same, but that's it. if you still disagree, consider the properties of the words "shown" and "shone" or "buy" and "by" or any other homophones you can come up with.


I'm not sure your analogy holds, since those words do sound the same but mean very different things, while the notes in question not only sound the same, they are the same. I understand the naming conventions in written music and the reasons for them, but your explanation appears unconvincing?

(No disrespect, I've read your posts for quite a while and you know more than I do, but it seems you may have missed the mark here? On the other hand, I could be totally FOS...)
#28
Quote by MaddMann274
Ain't that the same?


Technically. But it did say "The Ab minor scale". So why would you name it G#?
#29
Quote by Arby911
I'm not sure your analogy holds, since those words do sound the same but mean very different things, while the notes in question not only sound the same, they are the same. I understand the naming conventions in written music and the reasons for them, but your explanation appears unconvincing?

(No disrespect, I've read your posts for quite a while and you know more than I do, but it seems you may have missed the mark here? On the other hand, I could be totally FOS...)


don't worry, no disrepect taken.

see, though, the thing is that Ab and G# are not the same. they sound the same*, sure, but they're not the same. Ab is written as an A with a flat sign. G# is written as a G with a sharp sign. an E major chord is never constructed with an Ab. an F minor chord is never constructed with a G#. it's always going to be E G# B and F Ab C.

just like the words in the analogy, they sound the same, but they are named differently depending on the context. putting the sound aside, an Ab is no closer to a G# than it is to a B or an Eb.

*and they are only the same for instruments which are not capable of producing variations in pitch. this applies to pianos and fretted string instruments (i.e. guitars) first and foremost. yes, it is possible to to play such pitch variations on a guitar, but that necessitates the use of bending which, while it is an easy technique, is difficult for people who don't really understand the differences between G# and Ab. and if you don't understand the differences in sound, don't despair - it takes an extremely advanced ear to hear those microtonal qualities. on fretless instruments (instruments capable of producing tones between the 12 in our system), Ab will be closer to A, while G# will be closer to G. but, honestly, the differences in written notation are enough to distinguish the two notes.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#30
Quote by AeolianWolf
Ab will be closer to A, while G# will be closer to G. but, honestly, the differences in written notation are enough to distinguish the two notes.


I was with you up till this point.

Ab5 and G#5 are EXACTLY the same note, 830.609hz to be specific. There are no differences, microtonal or otherwise. On a piano you play them on the exact same key, on a guitar on the exact same fret.

The difference is in, and only in, the naming convention 'rules' (key signature dependent) so as to make communication with other musicians more precise.

If that's what you meant, but I'm reading it wrong, my bad?
#31
Quote by Arby911
I was with you up till this point.

Ab5 and G#5 are EXACTLY the same note, 830.609hz to be specific. There are no differences, microtonal or otherwise. On a piano you play them on the exact same key, on a guitar on the exact same fret.

The difference is in, and only in, the naming convention 'rules' (key signature dependent) so as to make communication with other musicians more precise.

If that's what you meant, but I'm reading it wrong, my bad?


that was my primary point, yes.

but on violin, neither G# nor Ab have that exact frequency. G# is slightly less than that, Ab is slightly more than that. so the identities of G# and Ab are different.

however, for pianists and guitarists who play fretted guitars, they're the same note, so that principle doesn't really apply for us. even though i'm a classical pianist and a fretted guitarist, those notes don't really have any bearing for me. i am, however, an orchestral composer, so i need to know when to use an Ab or a G# (though even then, that's only when i'm composing in a more modern style -- for classical style, i generally just go by nomenclature convention, like you said.)
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Last edited by AeolianWolf at Apr 15, 2011,
#32
however, for pianists and guitarists who play fretted guitars, they're the same note, so that principle doesn't really apply for us. even though i'm a classical pianist and a fretted guitarist, those notes don't really have any bearing for me. i am, however, an orchestral composer, so i need to know when to use an Ab or a G# (though even then, that's only when i'm composing in a more modern style -- for classical style, i generally just go by nomenclature convention, like you said.


thats interesting, I've never really heard that, but it makes sense. what do you do in a situation where it would be substaintially easier for a player to read something using enharmonic spellings (like a run of G -Ab-Bb-B-Db-D over a G7ish harmony?) ? or even a situation where your enharmonically renaming neopolitan chords to function like a dominant? do you do it one way on your score, and then do it differently with transposed parts/transposed score? also, how do you deal with altered but tonal harmonies, that may be weird to read but are not quite 20th century kind of music? is this just with orchestral strings, or does it apply to wind and brass instruments as well (which are capable of similarly precise intonation, but where fingerings are pre-set--aside from trombone which obviously does not have preset fingerings)?
all the best.
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#33
Quote by tehREALcaptain
thats interesting, I've never really heard that, but it makes sense. what do you do in a situation where it would be substaintially easier for a player to read something using enharmonic spellings (like a run of G -Ab-Bb-B-Db-D over a G7ish harmony?) ? or even a situation where your enharmonically renaming neopolitan chords to function like a dominant? do you do it one way on your score, and then do it differently with transposed parts/transposed score? also, how do you deal with altered but tonal harmonies, that may be weird to read but are not quite 20th century kind of music? is this just with orchestral strings, or does it apply to wind and brass instruments as well (which are capable of similarly precise intonation, but where fingerings are pre-set--aside from trombone which obviously does not have preset fingerings)?


well, let me point out that i'm not competent on violin. i don't play it. but i know many string players, and have learned extensively for them.

however, in composition, i tend to go by writing rules, unless i specifically hear the Ab being closer to the A than the Ab i can play on piano or guitar (or some such similar situation).

if i don't hear any such notes while composing the run you have suggested above -- i'd notate it as G G# A# B C# D (assuming it's ascending, of course).

as far as dealing with more modern tonal harmonies, i tend to use accidentals that make more sense. i tend not to enharmonically rename things - i tend to name them based on their function. generally, flats (as accidentals) want to descend, and sharps (as accidentals), want to ascend. if i borrow chords, i use the accidentals as they are spelled logically in the chords themselves.

i should also point out that it's very rare that i hear the G# and Ab as being different notes. it has happened, but more often than not, i use them as enharmonic equivalents. i just bring up this argument for the sake of correctness, since Ab and G# are not precisely the same pitch.
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#34
Quote by AeolianWolf
i just bring up this argument for the sake of correctness, since Ab and G# are not precisely the same pitch.


Can you point me to any reference material that supports this? I'm somewhat of a pedant in regard to electronics and mathematics, especially as regards sound and to me if the notes in question aren't at the frequency I specified, they are out of tune. (Not that I have a good enough ear to hear it, but my tuner can...)
#35
Quote by Arby911
Can you point me to any reference material that supports this? I'm somewhat of a pedant in regard to electronics and mathematics, especially as regards sound and to me if the notes in question aren't at the frequency I specified, they are out of tune. (Not that I have a good enough ear to hear it, but my tuner can...)


i found this explanation from someone claiming to have a PhD:


Let's consider the problem under the point of view of tuning:

Some instruments, like the piano, have a finite number of keys, but those keys should be able to perform a much higher number of different notes.
These instruments need then to be "tuned", i.e., one needs to make some sort of "reasonable" choice and "merge" pitches that are close enough into one single key.

"Temperament" is precisely the operation consisting of making this kind of choices and compromises, so that an almost infinite number of notes can be played by a small, finite number of keys.

In most temperaments, Ab and G# have very close pitches; moreover, with equal temperament (the most used temperament in modern keyboard instruments), they have exactly the same pitch. That is why these two notes are most often (but not always !) materialized by one single key on the keyboard, which "serves" either as Ab and G#, like in the modern piano keyboard.

So from the point of view of keyboard tuning, one could say that Ab and G# are (mostly often) the same thing.

But if we consider the problem under the perspective of tonal function, things are completely different: there is no tonal scale using Ab and G# at the same time, with the same function. Here are some examples: in Eb major,
Ab is the 4th degree in the scale and would tend to go down, attracted by the semitone below it (the 3rd degree), specially if it is the 7th of the dominant chord, Bb. Using G# in such context would be counter-intuitive as G# is not part of Eb major scale.

On the other hand, in A minor, G# is the 7th degree of the scale and would tend to act as the leading tone and go up, attracted by the tonic (A). Similarly, Ab would not be appropriate in such context.

This is specially sensible with some instruments, as the violin, which allow the musician to "adjust" the pitch of each note according to its tonal function;
it is very common to hear a violinist produce G#'s higher in pitch than Ab's.

So from the point of view of tonal function, one could say that Ab and G# are totally different.


he's saying that G#s produced by some violinists are higher than the Abs, which is the complete opposite of what i understood. i understood that Ab was closer to A, and G# was closer to G. maybe the educators i work with either weren't clear or don't know as much as i think they did.

i think i'm just going to start calling G# and Ab complete enharmonic equivalents, avoid the confusion.

dodeka, if you're reading this, we'd appreciate your input.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#36
Quote by AeolianWolf
i think i'm just going to start calling G# and Ab complete enharmonic equivalents, avoid the confusion.



First, thanks for not taking my contrariness personally, since it was never meant that way. Kudos for keeping it informational!

Second, I get what they are saying (or at least I think I do...you play slightly above or below the note pitch to generate a better lead in for the next note?), but I guess I think that your determination quoted above is the best course of action.

That being said, I have a semi-related question for you. Do you know how the current note frequencies were arrived at? Seems our musical progenitors could have at least had enough courtesy to end them on whole numbers, instead of byzantine decimal points...
#38
Quote by -Blue-
You don't know what I'm talking about with modes yet, most likely, but after you "master" the major scale, then I'd suggest looking into that.

oh god this is the worst piece of advice i've ever seen given to a guitarist haha

but seriously, it hurts to see these threads. it does. and i was making them just less than a year ago lol. seriously for people like me and the guy who started this thread, who for whatever reason just can't have a real, private teacher, there needs to be a RELIABLE source of information to learn from, a good website or a book series or something...this website and my pile of hal leonard books come the closest but there are still pretty big flaws, this is why all these guitarists go on the internet saying "i've totally mastered this scale, but it doesn't sound right for my next song, which scale sounds happy???" the amount of miseducation around is hard to look at, and it sucks knowing i myself am i victim of it.

and i haven't read this entire thread yet, but i'm guessing every1's told you its not "mastered" yet just because you know the notes? learn the major scale and learn how music is really made from it, chord progressions, improvisation, etc.