#1
I feel like this is a cloudy topic. I know there is a difference. I understand that anything that doesn't follow the regular I IV V blues progressions can be considered jazz blues. In my high school jazz band I took a solo in All Blues, Miles Davis, and I used a regular pentatonic/blues scale type of idea for it. My band director told me that if I wanted to solo in this song I'd have to cut out the rock influenced crap. I asked him if he wanted me to use mixolydian type of sounds and he said yes.

So I just wanted to know what the difference between a regular blues and this jazzy type of blues with different tags and what not. The progressions are identical but from what I've picked up so far the improvising process seems to be different. Can someone explain. I'm new to the more jazzed up type of blues.
#2
Your band director sounds like an opinionated, biased jerk.

That said, I think its jazz influenced ideas, Larry Carlton, Robben Ford are great at these sorts of ideas. How to explain it...its just something that I can hear, more outside playing, use of passing tone chromatics, and a lot more dead on chord tone soloing or by implication.

Sean
#3
As far as I'm concerned, jazz and blues were the exact same thing from the inception of the style. The difference boils down to the solos, if the soloists can play bop (be-bop) then people call it jazz. If the soloists can't play bop, then people call it blues.
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#4
A) Miles would have punched him in the face, if he heard him say that. And B) Listen to the notes that make sense to play over the changes, that's the only way to sound good, if he doesn't like what comes out, he doesn't like music that resolves properly.
#5
the "Jazz Blues" has an actual numerical formula to it, unlike the simplistic 12 bar blues.. the Jazz Blues has numerous ii V Is in different keys.. Ill write it out if anyone wants to know
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#6
Thanks people. So from what you are all saying I guess I should stay away from blues scales and pentatonics to use more advanced methods of soloing? Also, Seymour would you consider All Blues, jazz blues? I didn't really see any ii V I 's in there.. it's literally a a regular blues with like one tag of the 5th moving up a half step for a measure. I thought I could just use a what I used to use for "regular blues" since it's pretty similar, but I guess not haha.
#7
I dont want to be the first to say it but All Blues is modal. If you listen to the pianist in the recording he's not playing your average blues chord comping.

Can it be played like a regular blues? Sure but it definitely wasnt intended to be a bebop style jazz blues in Kind Of Blue.

That said, there's no real template for jazz blues. It's the same 12 bar structure, and the musicians are usually the ones who put in all the chord subs and superimpositions over that form. So just because a lead sheet or real book might say a certain tune is just a plain I IV V 12 bar blues doesn't mean it's going to be played strictly that way.
#8
this is the most basic form of jazz blues:

F7 | Bb7 | F7 | (C-7) F7 |
Bb7 | Bdim7 | F7 | D-7 |
G-7 | C7 | F D-7 | G-7 C7 |

at least, when someone calls a blues on a gig, unless it's highly specific like "Freddie" or a bird blues or trane blues, this is what I play.
#DTWD
Last edited by primusfan at Apr 11, 2011,
#9
Quote by Doodleface
As far as I'm concerned, jazz and blues were the exact same thing from the inception of the style. The difference boils down to the solos, if the soloists can play bop (be-bop) then people call it jazz. If the soloists can't play bop, then people call it blues.


... ...
#DTWD
#10
The changes by themselves don't need to be too complex in order to designate the song as "jazz blues." Take Thelonious Monk's stuff, for example. He did a lot of straight I-IV-V progressions for a lot of songs, but I wouldn't call any of them "blues" in the typical sense. In this case, Miles is making the I-IV-V progression very jazzy, which means that you don't want to blues it up by throwing in a bunch of pentatonic licks and bends. A little sprinkle of pentatonic lines is okay here and there, but you don't want it to dominate the sound of your solo. You'd be best off using a different mixolydian scale over each chord, practically shifting key centers to the IV and V when those chords come around. You don't have a lot of time on each one, but it's enough time that you can develop some interesting lines with each scale shift. Remember, this song was recorded during Miles' modal jazz phase. It's not supposed to sound like a straight blues in the key of G. Each new chord presents a different canvas on which to paint interesting melodic ideas. Just lay off the bends, slide chromatically into some of your notes, and play off of the horn solos to find some ideas. Oh, and keep it cool - it's a really laid back song.
#11
also, you should learn a transcription of a chorus or two of miles' solo on that tune. if he complains then, laugh your ass off at him.
#DTWD
#12
Alright sounds good. I like the idea of keeping it modal and trying a mixolydian scale with each 7 chord. I have another interesting question. Anything else you guys recommend besides mixolydian? Like the arrangement we are playing has so #9 chords so does anyone think an altered scale would work, or is that just too much? Sorry for all the questions haha. I appreciate all the tips though. I like getting different perspective on things.
#13
To be honest, the altered scale would sound pretty out of place if you just tried to start throwing it over those chords. It's doable, but the other altered tones would likely clash too much in such a simple context. If you want to hit the #9 tones, just throw that minor third interval in there without thinking of switching scales. It's easier to make that small adjustment than it is to completely switch the scale you're using and risk sounding out of place. Remember - you can do a lot more than you think with phrasing. You don't need to switch scales to sound different or fresh. In fact, if all you do to keep from sounding stale is use a new scale, you're going to seriously neglect your phrasing skills and end up running the same patterns over a new scale every time you take a solo. If you want to sound a little more outside the box, resolve your lines to something other than the root, third, or fifth of the chord you're on. In this case, try the #9s and the 7s.
#14
Quote by Glen'sHeroicAct
The changes by themselves don't need to be too complex in order to designate the song as "jazz blues." Take Thelonious Monk's stuff, for example. He did a lot of straight I-IV-V progressions for a lot of songs, but I wouldn't call any of them "blues" in the typical sense. In this case, Miles is making the I-IV-V progression very jazzy, which means that you don't want to blues it up by throwing in a bunch of pentatonic licks and bends. A little sprinkle of pentatonic lines is okay here and there, but you don't want it to dominate the sound of your solo. You'd be best off using a different mixolydian scale over each chord, practically shifting key centers to the IV and V when those chords come around. You don't have a lot of time on each one, but it's enough time that you can develop some interesting lines with each scale shift. Remember, this song was recorded during Miles' modal jazz phase. It's not supposed to sound like a straight blues in the key of G. Each new chord presents a different canvas on which to paint interesting melodic ideas. Just lay off the bends, slide chromatically into some of your notes, and play off of the horn solos to find some ideas. Oh, and keep it cool - it's a really laid back song.


Yes, yes yes ....

You can play a 12 bar I-IV-V "bluesy" of "jazzy".

One of the huge differences is the groove. Shuffles and boogies tend to be less jazzy. Jazz blues has "swing" .. and, as they say, if you don't know what it is you don't got it!!!

All Blues and all the tunes off "Kind of Blue" are just that -- kind of blue .. but also "modal". Miles lines up Coltrane and Adderly, Chambers and Evans and said "Ok -- we're going to be playing around with these scales and some of these changes" and they came in the day of the session (the album was recorded in two days -- TWO MOTHERF*CKING days!) and started blowing and one of the finer recordings ever was made.

Like Glen said -- Blue Monk is straight up I-IV-V but Monk does all this crazy chromatic stuff to really push it out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQfjm1m9MEI -- Joe Pass ripping up the guitar on "Joe's Blues" -- now that's swing!!!!
#15
1. All blues is not standard it's time sig is 6/8
2. rhythmic - blues is more shuffle and jazz blues is swinging
3. harmony - the basis is the same but jazz blues will embellish the progression with subs and tension notes
4. solo - blues will mainly solo using pentatonic /blues scale jazz blues will use all the improv arsenal of the jazz
Last edited by jayx124 at Apr 12, 2011,
#16
Ive seen so much mis information its hurting..
Blues Progression-
I7-I7-I7-I7
IV7-IV7-I7-I7
V7-V7-I7-I7

Jazz Bluess Progression-
I7-I7-I7-v7 I7-
IV7-#IVo7-III7- vi7
ii-V7-iii7 VI7-ii7 V7-

Bebop/ JAZZ feature progressions- ii7-V7-IM7 (Major)
iihalf-dim- V7- i7 (Minor)

You then get into extended cycle of fifths turnarouds, upper extensions yadayada

Ill put more up late if anyone wants

Charlie Parker is awesome
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#17
Quote by seymour_jackson
Ive seen so much mis information its hurting..
Blues Progression-
I7-I7-I7-I7
IV7-IV7-I7-I7
V7-V7-I7-I7

Jazz Bluess Progression-
I7-I7-I7-v7 I7-
IV7-#IVo7-III7- vi7
ii-V7-iii7 VI7-ii7 V7-

Bebop/ JAZZ feature progressions- ii7-V7-IM7 (Major)
iihalf-dim- V7- i7 (Minor)

You then get into extended cycle of fifths turnarouds, upper extensions yadayada

Ill put more up late if anyone wants

Charlie Parker is awesome

You're right, there is a pattern that most "jazz blues" tends to follow, and it isn't a simple I-IV-V format. However, that particular progression still isn't the absolute standard when it comes to jazz blues, and has been altered in many ways by various musicians, charlie parker in particular. For example, those first three bars of I7 you put in that progression likely would have been thrown out and substituted with some ii-V stuff, like on Au Privave. In any case, you're right about there being sort of a basic format for the common jazz approach to blues, but I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that if you use the term "jazz blues," you absolutely have to be referring
to a I7-I7-I7-v7 I7-IV7-#IVo7-III7- vi7-ii-V7-iii7 VI7-ii7 V7- progression. These are all very loose terms we're dealing with here, and it seems that the key thing the TS is having trouble with is figuring out how to approach a blues-based song in a jazz setting. In that light, I'd say that arguing over the dictionary definition of "jazz blues" is just splitting hairs.