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#1
Hey all.
I don't know if this is right since it's alot of time ago when I heard it.
So this guy said ''ok now I'm gonna play in G major,the third saddest key.''
I don't know if I'm twisting his words but is it true that you have the saddest key or something?
#2
Quote by liampje
Hey all.
I don't know if this is right since it's alot of time ago when I heard it.
So this guy said ''ok now I'm gonna play in G major,the third saddest key.''
I don't know if I'm twisting his words but is it true that you have the saddest key or something?


seriously?
shred is gaudy music
#3
there is never anything said about anything in a major key, unless some accidentals get thrown in there
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#4
Quote by liampje
Hey all.
I don't know if this is right since it's alot of time ago when I heard it.
So this guy said ''ok now I'm gonna play in G major,the third saddest key.''
I don't know if I'm twisting his words but is it true that you have the saddest key or something?

Honestly?
#5
Dminor.
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#7
Maybe he was playing a mode of major but didn't call it a mode?
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#10


no, it's the same, a major key is a major key, it depends what you do with it.

older composers thought that certain keys had colours associated with them, like D major was gold, there's a famous anecdote with stravinsky, but i can't be bother'd typing it! so people thought that there was feelings associated with each key, it's kinda up to yourself if you feel it. there's not exactly a clinical way of measuring it though..


actually, what key is no surprises in? i vote that key! (thom yorke's face)
#11
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#13
Quote by liampje
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrJuzHY2O4
at 0:39 he says it and I made a mistake it was g minor but then he says now I'm going to the more sad F major.
Btw when he solos over the F major does he play Mixolydian?
And over the G minor aeolion?
The F major mixolydian is what I heard clearly.
The G minor thing is forced listening.


You ever see Spinal Tap?

(the dude in that video has).

he was trying to be funny by referencing the movie.
shred is gaudy music
#14
I think it depends on what you play it over. I don't a clue how it works though, since I do everything by my gut (and I'm in minor modes most all the time anyway).
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#15
He was making a joke.
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#16
I have seen a very interesting table once, about the different modes and a feeling in relation to the mode.
It is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode) at the "Western Church" topic, in "use". It is how someone interpreted the modes, but it's also very interesting to know. And I think it is a study in ancient music, not the modern modes.

It would be a good subject of study.
Last edited by LucasSG at Apr 14, 2011,
#17
Quote by LucasSG
I have seen a very interesting table once, about the different modes and a feeling in relation to the mode.
It is here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musical_mode) at the "Western Church" topic, in "use". It is how someone interpreted the modes, but it's also very interesting to know. And I think it is a study in ancient music, not the modern modes.

It would be a good subject of study.


but these are different modes, the major scale is the ionian mode. he's talking about if they're transposed to different notes, does it sound happier or sadder.
#20
It's all the G minor scale, because both of those chords are in the key of G minor. Nothing to do with modes here.
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#22
Quote by food1010
It's all the G minor scale, because both of those chords are in the key of G minor. Nothing to do with modes here.

Guess what G minor scale with Fmaj chord =mixolydian.
If nothing would've done with modes he wouldn't play anything as backing.
Because actually modes work on how your brain sort of calculates the interval and I could hear a clear dominant seventh in his playing.
#23
Liampje, I said it before in another thread, but I'll just restate my opinion:

You're getting in way too deep, way too fast.

Take a few steps back, and start again with basic theory, and applying it, until you understand it.
#25
Quote by liampje
Guess what G minor scale with Fmaj chord =mixolydian.
If nothing would've done with modes he wouldn't play anything as backing.
Because actually modes work on how your brain sort of calculates the interval and I could hear a clear dominant seventh in his playing.


Pretty sure there was a massive thread recently pointing out that you have a flawed knowledge of modes. As a general rule for you, if the song is in a major or minor key, modes do not apply.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#26
Quote by liampje
Guess what G minor scale with Fmaj chord =mixolydian.
If nothing would've done with modes he wouldn't play anything as backing.
Because actually modes work on how your brain sort of calculates the interval and I could hear a clear dominant seventh in his playing.


he's in the ionian mode! omg now the lydian! OMG NOW THE MIXOLYDIAN!?!? WTF!?!?!? - liampje

no, that's I IV V, as other people have said, learn basic theory first, you need to walk before you can run. don't build on a flawed foundation. there's no point when if you just pace yourself for a bit longer you could have a good foundation.

learn functional harmony and let it sink in. don't move on until your comfortable with it and its concepts, cos at the moment, your clearly not.
Last edited by gavk at Apr 14, 2011,
#27
Quote by liampje
Guess what G minor scale with Fmaj chord =mixolydian.
If nothing would've done with modes he wouldn't play anything as backing.
Because actually modes work on how your brain sort of calculates the interval and I could hear a clear dominant seventh in his playing.
Look, I'm gonna be real straight about this and say, that's not how modes work. Forget what you know about modes for now and focus on tonal harmony.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#30
Quote by liampje
I already got it but can you please answer my question on if this guy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkrJuzHY2O4 plays mixolydian over the Fmaj chord and aeolian over G minor at 0:52 he starts.


No, he doesn't. You have a guitar teacher, ask him.

Sean
#31
In all seriousness, certain keys do have certain feelings associated with them. It is entirely coherent to claim that "(insert key here) is the (adjective)est key."

This comes primarily from the layout of various instruments used. For example, the key of D major is a "stately" or "royal" key (as seen in Bach's "Quoniam Too Solus Sanctus" from the B minor Mass) because of the way timbre works on orchestral instruments. In this key, Horns, Cellos, and Bassoons are all very resonant (the Cello, for example has 2 strings whose fundamental is a member of the D major chord, one of these being D itself, making the resonance of that string particularly strong in this key. All this lends itself to an extremely warm tone quality produced by cellos in this key).

This same idea can apply for all manner of different keys, which of course changes based upon the orchestration and instrumentation of a given piece of music. The saddest key for a brass ensemble would not be the same as the saddest key for a solo piano piece. However, it is entirely coherent to argue that any particular key is "the saddest" for a given instrument.
Last edited by nmitchell076 at Apr 15, 2011,
#32
^ while some of what you posted is true the ts isn't that far i don't think. as for the timbre of the instruments while what you said is true to a degree i think that in mass orchestrations (umpteen cellos, violins, woodwinds etc) the fundamental gets reinforced by all those other instruments regardless of key. also you could theoretically get instruments retuned for the specific key of the song and it would still maintain a similar timbre (assuming you don't rearrange it for a giant leap in any direction) theres been lots of discussions on this in MT and the general consensus is that while it is true to some to degree, to the average non musician it doesn't bear a lot of relevence as they aren't listening for it, i never hear my friends say "oh thats in C# i can tell by the timbre, its more ______ than this other song in this other key"
#33
Regardless of whether or not it directly relates to TS's post (I'll admit it might be beyond the scope), I think its a conversation worth having, so mind if we discuss it a little bit?

Quote by z4twenny
^ while some of what you posted is true the ts isn't that far i don't think. as for the timbre of the instruments while what you said is true to a degree i think that in mass orchestrations (umpteen cellos, violins, woodwinds etc) the fundamental gets reinforced by all those other instruments regardless of key.

While this is true, there is a very different texture to a piece when things are being artificially reinforced vs using pitches that naturally resonate with the instrument. The difference in effects available to an orchestrator between the two are so significant, I feel, that key selection can constitute a major, significant expressive device in orchestration/composition.

To use an example, suppose a piece is in Bb major and the trumpets have a simple arpegiation of the I chord. This arpeggiation (fingered open, 12, open, open) would resonate extremely well in the trumpets, since it uses the "open" horn alot. However, were this same piece simply written in the key of C major instead, this figure (now being fingered 13, 2, 12) would resonate in a much different, more closed way. Nearly the same timbre effect differences would be experienced in the clarinet section. These differences mean that in a key of Bb major, a composer looking for a rich, warm sound in an arpeggiation of the I chord would be inclined to use the clarinets and trumpets for the section, as opposed to other instruments. Further, if he were to use this, he would probably be more inclined to reinforce the 5th and the root, as opposed to the third, since these notes are open on the trumpet and since the 5th would also be extremely resonant with the French Horns. To reinforce the third, he might choose the Cellos, since, as already mentioned, D is an open string for them. These expressive choices are very significant, such that the juxtaposition of the exact same figure (still on I) replaced by a different tambral group (shall we say, violins, oboes, and trombones) could constitute a major texture shift

Thus, though often mass orchestrations are used to "cover up" the harmonic disadvantages many instruments have in any given key, key choice itself still remains a major expressive device, as the tone qualities available in each key very significantly from one another.
Last edited by nmitchell076 at Apr 15, 2011,
#34
Different instruments have different tine qualities at different points in their range. An Oboe in it's lower register will sound thick and heavy, in it's middle, Warm, penetrating and reedy, get too high and it will sound too thin and ineffective.

There are differences with all other instruments, Play a chord progression in the lower range of the guitar, then play it a 5th higher, notice anything different about the tone?
#35
^ obviously yes, the tone moves up (or down) but something as simple as tuning a guitar a step up (or capoing the second fret) can alter where that open fundamental sits. im not saying different instruments don't have different ranges, obviously they do. what i'm saying is that the actual key when it comes to the listener isn't that important, i don't think the average person is going to think one song sounds more _____ than another simply because of the key its written in. i've found it has more to do with the song writing and instrumental arrangement than the actual key. like i said before, i've never heard someone point out that a song sounds a specific way because of the key it sits in .
#36
Quote by liampje
Guess what G minor scale with Fmaj chord =mixolydian.
If nothing would've done with modes he wouldn't play anything as backing.
Because actually modes work on how your brain sort of calculates the interval and I could hear a clear dominant seventh in his playing.


please. no. just stop.

to whoever said that there's nothing sad in a major key, you're really mistaken. ever heard the beginning few measures of the theme from the shawshank redemption?

and there really is no "saddest key". it's more what you do with the notes you have than the notes themselves.

personally, i think Ab sounds somber, but it's not cut-and-dried -- far from it, actually. it all depends on how you use it.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#37
well tell you what. they always say Major is happy Minor is sad. Not always (any advanced musician will approve this). It all depends on how you use it all. Music is a huge universe and there are so many possibilities. anyways to say G major is sadder than say C major is just stupid imho.
#38
Ok so first everybody told me you need a drone or vamp to play a mode.
As far as I know a sustaining F major chord is sort of the same as a drone.
And as far as I know in the key of G minor an Fmaj would give you a dominant seventh.
And dominant is mixolydian.
So anyone please tell me what I've done wrong here and tell it to me exactly.
#39
Everything you just said is wrong in one way or another. Sustaining an F major chord is not a drone, sustaining one note is a drone or pedal point, a single note, not a chord, just a note. Playing a single chord is just playing a single chord, and if it's an F major chord you're in F major. An F maj in G minor is not a dominant seventh, it's just a normal seventh. F major fits into the key of G minor, although typically you do raise the leading tone (i.e. F-F#) to create a dominant function chord, but you can also leave it natural.

Dominant is not mixolydian, I don't even know what that means. Dominant is dominant. The dominant is the fifth scale degree and dominant function chords happen when a chord is, or functions like, the chord built from the fifth scale degree.

TL;DR: THERE IS NOTHING MODAL ABOUT PLAYING F MAJOR IN G MINOR. AT ALL.
Last edited by jazz_rock_feel at Apr 15, 2011,
#40
Quote by z4twenny
^ obviously yes, the tone moves up (or down) but something as simple as tuning a guitar a step up (or capoing the second fret) can alter where that open fundamental sits. im not saying different instruments don't have different ranges, obviously they do. what i'm saying is that the actual key when it comes to the listener isn't that important, i don't think the average person is going to think one song sounds more _____ than another simply because of the key its written in. i've found it has more to do with the song writing and instrumental arrangement than the actual key. like i said before, i've never heard someone point out that a song sounds a specific way because of the key it sits in .

Well I was thinking from a compositional standpoint, not a listening standpoint. What I was getting at I think pertains to what you are getting at, what creates the mood of a piece is the compositional process involved. What I was getting at was that the choice of key can be (if used correctly) an incredibly potent compositional device, since certain keys would allow certain processes and certain tone qualities to be put forward easier then other keys. Thus a really skilled composer would probably choose his key very carefully in order to make the most of his expressive statements.

I was simply looking at it from the standpoint of creation, whereas you seem more to be looking at it from a listener's standpoint, which I was confused about originally
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