#1
this is not a question about how to use modes or whatever, this is a question of why every1 asking those questions are so poorly informed.

in the modes sticky there is stuff about modes that i couldn't learn from my piles upon piles of music books. obviously thats why every1's confused, people who make hese threads make them because their exposure to modes came from poor sources. why do these sources suck dirty rectum at teaching people? if u can't teach modes right, don't teach them at all

anybody have theories as to why this crap happens?
#3
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26181138&postcount=9

There's the answer to a lot of things. Incidentally, this was poted in a modal topic.

You may not like the answer but there it is.

Bon Appetit.

As for books and such - I think we've accepted a very poor standard of what it means to really "teach" The presentation of information, isn't teaching, in my opinion, they could care less if you learn, their data is raw resources, and you're on your own. From my perspective, my idea of teaching is my commitment to you that you are going to learn. If I can't do that, or you know most of what I'd teach, I'm not going to presume to offer something that would teach you.


Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 17, 2011,
#4
because people who don't know jack shit about music other than how to play power chords and 2 or 3 scales learn from poor sources and pay it forward.
Anfangen ist leicht, Beharren eine Kunst.
#5
Quote by Sean0913
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showpost.php?p=26181138&postcount=9

There's the answer to a lot of things. Incidentally, this was poted in a modal topic.

You may not like the answer but there it is.

Bon Appetit.

that was such a confusing way to say it. the cheese metaphor just ****ed me in the brain and i couldn't read any further...but im guesing u told me something like "give up modes" or "find a pivate teacher" in which case i dont need to hear it, im not asking about modes, im asking about people who suck at teaching modes, and i think the 2nd half of ur post answered that for me
#6
because most guitar players don't know shit.
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
#7
I'd assume it's because modes aren't particularly relevant anymore in the grander scheme of things, therefore there's no reason for a music textbook to spend a lot of time on them or go into any depth or detail. It mystifies me why there's such a hard on for them in the guitar community - indeed it's been that way since I started playing so it's not even the internet's fault

As far as websites go, anyone can make a website - unfortunately one of the main reasons people make websites is because they love themselves, not because they know what they're talking about. Like AeolianWolf said, it's the blind leading the blind. Presumably using the Guitar Grimoire for directions.
Actually called Mark!

Quote by TNfootballfan62
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...it's a seagull

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#9
Because what a guitar player means by "mode" is a scale.

Which is not what a mode is.

And guitar players try to make stuff sound complicated to make up for their lack of musical training.

A decent teacher will say "Forget modes! Learn tunes, sight reading, lead sheets, chord progressions, cycle of 5ths, 3 and 4 part harmony, rhythm, more rhythm, Afro-Cuban rhythm, swing rhythm, cadences, leading tone chord solos ...."

But the average dim-witted kid at GC just wants to SHRED! .. and sound like every other terrible zit faced kid at GC who has no concept of anything musical and can't even name the notes he is playing.

I could be wrong.

But I doubt it.
#10
I think it's because someone (most likely a beginner) reads somewhere that each mode has a certain "flavor", or "sound" to it, and they think that if they take advantage of that they will make awesome music. A lot of people it seems assume that picking the "right scale" is the way to make you music sound like you want it to sound. It probably stems back to a bad understanding in music theory, that music theory is a tool to write songs for you. As a result people rush into modes without fully even understanding what a major scale.

As for why modes aren't taught in detail in books and other resources, I think it's because modes are a very ancient form of scales (not the right word, but I can't think of a better word). I remember watching a documentary on the evolution of music theory, which said that modes were created by the Greek a long time ago (which is why the modes are given Greek names). This was before many of the concepts we use today were even created, such as chordal harmony. Modal music back then was just a group of people all singing the same notes, without any chords or anything to back them up. That is probably where the concept of each mode having a different flavor came from. Modern music nowadays though makes good use of chords, except modes weren't created to be used over chords, so using modes over the regular diatonic scale chords isn't gonna be the same, which is why you need a pretty solid understanding of theory to get modes to work.

Since modes are techinically ancient, I guess books don't feel the need to go into that much detail, whereas having a good solid base in the major and minor scales is probably more importnant.

Just my 0.02 cents though, tbh I don't even know if any of my info is right, but it kinda makes sense right?
Last edited by zincabopataurio at Apr 17, 2011,
#11
Quote by TMVATDI
this is not a question about how to use modes or whatever, this is a question of why every1 asking those questions are so poorly informed.

in the modes sticky there is stuff about modes that i couldn't learn from my piles upon piles of music books. obviously thats why every1's confused, people who make hese threads make them because their exposure to modes came from poor sources. why do these sources suck dirty rectum at teaching people? if u can't teach modes right, don't teach them at all

anybody have theories as to why this crap happens?


The same reason that most tabs on the internet are wrong......anyone can post. No experience or qualifications required. It gives people the opportunity to jump from novice to Guru without actually going through the process. No offense intended but I would consider a big percentage of advice at this forum to have the same problem.


Quote by steven seagull


As far as websites go, anyone can make a website - unfortunately one of the main reasons people make websites is because they love themselves


yup thats the main reason people make websites. LOL

You're on to something though with the "anyone can make one" idea. Kinda like posts here. I wonder if people post here because they love themselves. hmmmm
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 17, 2011,
#12
I only love myself because nobody else does
Actually called Mark!

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...it's a seagull

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i wanna see a clip of a recto buying some groceries.


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#14
Modes were used centuries ago, and have these fancy greek names, so people (notably guitarists) tend to think of them as exotic and put them on this pedestal. Really, few people acknowledge that tonal music was derived from the modes (specifically aeolian and ionian) as a way to add variation and complexity, rather than the other way around. The modern incorrect view of modes is that they add a new element of complexity and opportunity within the tonal realm, when in reality all of that opportunity for complexity is contained within the tonal vocabulary already.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#15
I dunno. I think that a lot of people want to enter at the "high level" of music theory, so just cut straight to the "top", get whatever tidbits they can understand then run away. They don't realise that music theory is like maths to the extent that if you don't understand the fundamentals, you won't understand the advanced portions.

So they take these tidbits, and put themselves out to be experts, teaching the tidbits to the extent they can understand them, and this "knowledge" is then passed onto the next bunch of people.

The amount of videos on youtube teaching modes is quite amazing, and a lot of them start with "I'm going to teach you how to play the modes in C major". Passing on the knowledge to a mass audience.

Basically it's just the blind leading the blind.

Recently the bass player in my band started teaching himself theory, he mentioned this in passing at practice and after I messaged him going "oh, if you read anything saying "modes", ignore it". It so turned out he was half way through a flawed explanation of modes on the internet. So he must have followed some logical path on the internet to end up with "modes" within his first week of looking at music theory.

The singer in one of my bands recently went on a rant about modes and how everybody thinks they're so great, when they're just "the major scale starting on a different note". Now I know why he was angry with modes, he's actually a relatively good muso with good foundation in music theory. He didn't understand why all these people playing "modes" were just playing the major/minor scales and calling it something else. It's what initially confused me too.

So there are some good sources for teaching modes, but they're quite useless if you don't understand everything that goes before it.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
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#16
strickly there ain't no rules in music
what it really have are the pattern that sounds good
and theory only use the words some up the feelings but how can you get that without experimence it
so try hard dig out your soul to find out what modes really mean(the feeling giving by the sound of differrent modes)
just like normal major
#17
Quote by food1010
Modes were used centuries ago, and have these fancy greek names, so people (notably guitarists) tend to think of them as exotic and put them on this pedestal. Really, few people acknowledge that tonal music was derived from the modes (specifically aeolian and ionian) as a way to add variation and complexity, rather than the other way around. The modern incorrect view of modes is that they add a new element of complexity and opportunity within the tonal realm, when in reality all of that opportunity for complexity is contained within the tonal vocabulary already.

Quote by AlanHB
I dunno. I think that a lot of people want to enter at the "high level" of music theory, so just cut straight to the "top", get whatever tidbits they can understand then run away. They don't realise that music theory is like maths to the extent that if you don't understand the fundamentals, you won't understand the advanced portions.

So they take these tidbits, and put themselves out to be experts, teaching the tidbits to the extent they can understand them, and this "knowledge" is then passed onto the next bunch of people.

etc... (sorry just read Alan's post above I was going to quote the whole thing but my post would have been way too long hahaha)


I personally love both of these explanations, and they seem to really sum it all up.

guitarists, since they really don't have to get through any theory at all (seriously they don't need to be able to read music or anything as long as you can read numbers and count frets you can play your favorite guitar riffs) to learn to play anything don't feel like they need more than a basic explanation as opposed to an actual understanding of each concept. and as you get higher into the more "useless" info (before you flame I'm not saying that any theory is useless I'm merely saying that some theory is way more useful than others, and usually needed to understand the less used things) the information becomes more conveluted and they begin to atribute these things to being more or less complex or useful than they really are, depending on who you are talking to and what they are talking about.
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Some pieces are only meant to be played by people with six fingers on their fretting hand. Sorry.
#18
'Cuz modes are incumbent upon good knowledge of scales, which are incumbent upon basic interval theory, all of which is incumbent upon memorizing the guitar neck up and down for real world application (not strictly necessary but really helps not getting whiplash from looking at the book/page every two seconds)

As for books and such - I think we've accepted a very poor standard of what it means to really "teach" The presentation of information, isn't teaching, in my opinion, they could care less if you learn, their data is raw resources, and you're on your own
Which is why I think it's funny when people say using YouTube disqualifies you as being self taught. What a croc, a youtube video (or even a good book for that matter) can't analyze your playing and offer you advice.