#1
Hello

I was wondering how you would go about with learning intervals
completely(as in master it)

How do you relate it for example a riff that consists of 5 notes(with different intervals)

will I relate it to the root always? Will I analyze it this way?

First 2 notes : Root to minor third

3rd note : Root to perfect 5th

4th - 5th note : Root to diminished 5th to minor 6th

Is that how I analyze intervals?

Then Modes

Modes cannot be applied to tonal music correct? but all those scale degrees mirror
major and minor scales with flattened or sharpened note, they just start at a different note other than the root correct? Sorry if you're getting tired of this question cause I'm just trying to filter out the misinformation about them and reaffirming if what I know is true or not.

Thanks for your help
#2
Quote by gothblade
Hello

I was wondering how you would go about with learning intervals
completely(as in master it)

How do you relate it for example a riff that consists of 5 notes(with different intervals)

will I relate it to the root always? Will I analyze it this way?

First 2 notes : Root to minor third

3rd note : Root to perfect 5th

4th - 5th note : Root to diminished 5th to minor 6th

Is that how I analyze intervals?

Then Modes

Modes cannot be applied to tonal music correct? but all those scale degrees mirror
major and minor scales with flattened or sharpened note, they just start at a different note other than the root correct? Sorry if you're getting tired of this question cause I'm just trying to filter out the misinformation about them and reaffirming if what I know is true or not.

Thanks for your help

Yeah usually you would say it that way, some people might say it after each successive interval but I don't like that method. You could for example say the major scale is tone, tone,semi-tone,tone, tone, tone, semi-tone.

Modes are the result of changing the root but not the notes, and it's about resolving to it, not just starting on it. But, as others will tell you I'd definitely not want to go there yet. Study the major scale in great depth if you haven't already done so. You're not missing out on anything.
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#3
Use the First 2 notes- Root to (interval), then for each note after that, you base it on the interval from the note before it. So for your example

1st 2 notes- Root to minor third
3rd note-minor third to perfect 5th (major 3rd)
4th note- perfect 5th to diminished 5h (minor 2nd)
5th note-diminished 5h to minor 6th (major 2nd)

That's how I usually do it, it helps with learning the intervals. Also, a slightly more mundane btu equally effective way is to learn how many frets are between each interval and use that knowledge to figure them out.

And for Modes, I think that's right, they're just scales that start on a different note in the key, and focus on the root note of that scale, not the tonic of the key.

Ex] C Major- you want to use E Phrygian, start on E, scale is E-F-G-A-B-C-D-E, and (optional) you can base the song around the E note.

Hope that helped!
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#4
@ Venice King

Thanks I guess I need to study the major scale a bit more but at very least I'm in the right track

@thePTOD

So the root won't be the reference point of the next interval Thanks that kinda cleared up stuff hehe

And about the modes well so It's just a E Minor scale then with a flattened 2nd if you're talking about it tonically then

Thanks again.
#5
Quote by gothblade
@ Venice King

Thanks I guess I need to study the major scale a bit more but at very least I'm in the right track

@thePTOD

So the root won't be the reference point of the next interval Thanks that kinda cleared up stuff hehe

And about the modes well so It's just a E Minor scale then with a flattened 2nd if you're talking about it tonically then

Thanks again.

That is not the only way to do, I'd go as far to say it's actually a less common way of doing.

Major scale is
major second
major third
perfect fourth
perfect fifth
major sixth
major seventh
octave

To change the major scale to a minor scale you could say "flatten the third, sxith and seventh degrees"
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#6
@Venice King

I didn't know that way was uncommon hehe

I just got it from Troy Stetina's Fretboard mastery (I'm reading it right now)

Thanks again for your help.
#7
In fairness I guess it's about preference, which is fine. Just be aware of both approaches.
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#8
I usually relate intervals to the root note in a melody. But I tend to have the same question as you, TS, as in is it the correct way to do it and is it actually the way our ear relates the intervals. Maybe if you hold or accent the 5th (or any other scale degree) then the following intervals start relating to the fifth or something.

I've only read about modes quite passingly, so I don't really have a firm understanding on them. But the way I see it, is that you choose a root chord (Fmaj in F lydian for example) that is stable and then you pick another chord that has that augmented 4th (B in F lydian), but at the same time makes the Fmaj function as the root chord. So you can accent the F on the root chord and augmented 4th on the second chord without any unwanted dissonance or tension that might lead back to the major tonality. Like if you try to incorporate the augmented 4th into the Fmaj then you might notice that its quite unstable (Fmaj7#11 for example), because the augmented 4th (F - B) wants to resolve to the minor 6th of E - C.
But, like I said, don't take this explanation as a complete truth until someone more competent in modes approves it
Last edited by -Mantra- at Apr 18, 2011,
#9
I don't know if this is clear, but it's important to know the root note isn't always the first note of a given riff, it could easily start on something other than the root. And usually, you refer to the notes you're using in relation to the root note (like 3rd, 5th, b5th, 6th) but when you're actually describing an interval it would be from one note to the next. Like from minor third to perfect fifth, you would just call that interval a major third.
#10
Normally, I'd stay clear of topics like this, but your questions are a bit better.

The only thing I would suggest is master the Major scale in it's entirety. Sit down and learn how to write out every single major scale.

I'd relate things to the tonal center, root. when it comes to analyzing a riff. My question for you, is "ok, so you relate notes of a riff interval wise. What does that tell you? Do you know how to take that data load and....do something with it? If so, what do you do with it afterwards? What's the end game?"

Those "different" notes in modes as you characterize them, will FUNCTION as flavor notes in Major or Minor keys usually, nothing more. You could do the same thing randomizing outside and inside notes, functionally, speaking.

Sean


Quote by gothblade
Hello

I was wondering how you would go about with learning intervals
completely(as in master it)

How do you relate it for example a riff that consists of 5 notes(with different intervals)

will I relate it to the root always? Will I analyze it this way?

First 2 notes : Root to minor third

3rd note : Root to perfect 5th

4th - 5th note : Root to diminished 5th to minor 6th

Is that how I analyze intervals?

Then Modes

Modes cannot be applied to tonal music correct? but all those scale degrees mirror
major and minor scales with flattened or sharpened note, they just start at a different note other than the root correct? Sorry if you're getting tired of this question cause I'm just trying to filter out the misinformation about them and reaffirming if what I know is true or not.

Thanks for your help
#11
@Venice King

Yup

@-Mantra-
So you're talking about modal chord progressions? I'm kinda still learning to understand what modes really are though and like people said, It's not really important to me right now but at least I get an overview with what you're talking about

Thanks

@jazz_rock_feel

I didn't think of it that way...You're right some riffs and songs don't start on the root. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind

@Sean0913

Will do sir. I guess my knowledge of the major scale is still a bit lacking.
My endgame I guess is to learn song parts instantly just by hearing them and I guess intervals can help me achieve that.

Well I guess that's that for me asking about modes. The internet has confused me too much about them and I just started to realize what they're about and they aren't really involved in Western Music I think. So just accidentals will be fine for giving flavor to solos and whatnot then?
#13
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Yep, you got it on the modes deal. If you ask most non-guitarist musicians about using modes they'll be like lolwut? They're not that useful.


Thanks. This site really helped me understand them now
A lot of guitarists overglorify the stuff and it becomes lost in a sea of misinformation
Last edited by gothblade at Apr 18, 2011,
#14
Quote by gothblade
Well I guess that's that for me asking about modes. The internet has confused me too much about them and I just started to realize what they're about and they aren't really involved in Western Music I think. So just accidentals will be fine for giving flavor to solos and whatnot then?


They are in folk music.
#15
Quote by gothblade
Thanks. This site really helped me understand them now
A lot of guitarists overglorify the stuff and it becomes lost in a sea of misinformation

+1
So many times new guitarists post on here "zomg modes are amazing, look i can use them in tonal music and all my idols do"
This is a refreshing statement to hear from someone who is starting out.

I'm not expert on modes, or theory, I'm just aware of them and tend to stay clear of them. They have no real use in the music I listen to, play or write and maybe one day in the future I'll get into them!

Definatley listen to Sean, he knows his stuff!
#16
Quote by gothblade


@Sean0913

Will do sir. I guess my knowledge of the major scale is still a bit lacking.
My endgame I guess is to learn song parts instantly just by hearing them and I guess intervals can help me achieve that.

Well I guess that's that for me asking about modes. The internet has confused me too much about them and I just started to realize what they're about and they aren't really involved in Western Music I think. So just accidentals will be fine for giving flavor to solos and whatnot then?


I think theory as a whole will help you do that, but, not intervals in and of themselves. Maybe I'm being a bit too strict, but to me an integral part of learning songs, is understanding them as a whole as in the big picture.

I was recently hired on as a guitarist for an up and coming Texas artist, and at the first meeting last Friday night I shadowed everything he did. The manager and producer were both there. The artist was showing me something he called "a hard song to get" and was showing me these chord changes, making sure I got it. After one pass I said, yeah I see what you're doing, and it came out something like this:

"Yeah I see, you're going to the 4 (IV) and the 1 (I) two times, and then the flat 7 (b7) to the 5 (V) and back to the 1 (I)..."

The artist looked at me like I'd just explained something to him in Chinese. The Producer quickly called out "Don't worry, he's got it! lets play"

It's times like these, that I feel thankful to know how to see the big picture. I learned his whole CD in 2 days to where I could play every song that first meeting. The guys was visibly shocked, especially after he'd heard that I never play or do country. But, I could see the whole song, and I have a good ear. I don't think I'd have gotten the song just with intervals however. The big picture was invaluable to me.

Many times through out the night he would be talking and say "these songs are difficult, I know..." and the producer and I would make eye contact and share a quick smile.

End of this story is I've got the gig, and now all I have to do is tighten up with the rest of the band, before we strike off next month on tour.

Point is, that you want to make learning theory a priority because it explains so much about what you are doing as a whole, that it makes playing music and creating music so easy to follow, than memorizing a bunch of Eb's and Ab's.
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 18, 2011,
#18
Quote by Sean0913
I think theory as a whole will help you do that, but, not intervals in and of themselves. Maybe I'm being a bit too strict, but to me an integral part of learning songs, is understanding them as a whole as in the big picture.

I was recently hired on as a guitarist for an up and coming Texas artist, and at the first meeting last Friday night I shadowed everything he did. The manager and producer were both there. The artist was showing me something he called "a hard song to get" and was showing me these chord changes, making sure I got it. After one pass I said, yeah I see what you're doing:

"Yeah I see, you're just going to the 4 (IV) and the 1 (I) two times, and then the flat 7 (b7) to the 5 (V) and back to the 1 (I)"

The artist looked at me like I'd just explained something to him in Chinese. The Producer quickly called out "Don't worry, he's got it!" Lets just play"

It's times like these that I feel thankful to know how to see the big picture. I learned his whole CD in 2 days to where I could play every song that first meeting. The guys was visibly shocked, especially after he'd heard that I never play or do country. But, I could see the whole song, and I have a good ear. I don't think I'd have gotten the song just with intervals however. The big picture was invaluable to me.

Many times through out the night he would be talking and say "these songs are difficult, I know..." and the producer and I would make eye contact and share a quick smile.

End of this story is I've got the gig, and now all I have to do is tighten up with the rest of the band, before we strike off next month on tour.

Point is, that you want to make learning theory a priority because it explains so much about what you are doing as a whole, that it makes playing music and creating music so easy to follow, than memorizing a bunch of Eb's and Ab's.


That's really cool I guess that's what I want to be able to do at the very least be able to easily learn a song like what you did there. Guess It's a long way ahead for me yet

Congrats sir
#19
Quote by gothblade
That's really cool I guess that's what I want to be able to do at the very least be able to easily learn a song like what you did there. Guess It's a long way ahead for me yet

Congrats sir


Thanks, it's weird. I didn't mean to steal your thunder though... I just thought my experience is a good recent example on what knowing theory can do for you when wanting to learn songs and understand how to derive the notes using more than just intervals.

My point in this, is, when you know theory, as a whole, and it can be done, I teach this stuff all day long, then figuring things out becomes a lot less work, and easier to do. Like anything, exposure to doing these things, and time and practice play a large part. I should say, applied theory - I'll say it again, if you know the notes on your neck, then the first thing to do is start learning your major scale. Figure out their construction and start writing them all out.

By the way, I offer a free guitarist mentoring service, so, if you want some guidance, PM me and I'll help you along! Just check my mentoring link below and shoot me a PM, I'll do my best to help!

Best,

Sean