#1
Basically, i was watching American Pie: The Wedding last night and when Stifler gets out the school bus, the song Art Of Losing by American Hi Fi starts playing. I know and love the song so when i heard this i was happy. However, the song is a tone higher in the film than normal. This song is repeated later on in the film and is also a tone higher. I have also heard this done before in some films. Heres a video with the scene im talking about. The very first clip that is shown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwEuJ0dG-yM&feature=related

I was wondering if UG could shed some light on this as i am intrigued to know what the answer is :P Could it be some licencing issue or something?

Thanks UG!
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Quote by angusfan16
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#2
I highly doubt it's a licencing issue as they must already have the bands consent to use the song. Not entirely sure why they do it, Set Me Free by Velvet Revolver at the end of Hulk is different to the album version before, however I though that was the only one.
#3
Not sure what the deal is, but the American Pied movies have dif versions of a few songs. The other one that I know of is 3 Doors Down-Be like That. I don't think the key has chaned, just the song lyrics. Is it possible that you are in Eb by accident?
#4
Perhaps to keep the vocals away from the pitch of the voices to make them more distinguishable? It could be very confusing if the pitch of the speaking was similar to the words.
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#5
Quote by dimarzio77
Not sure what the deal is, but the American Pied movies have dif versions of a few songs. The other one that I know of is 3 Doors Down-Be like That. I don't think the key has chaned, just the song lyrics. Is it possible that you are in Eb by accident?


Nah i played the film clip against the actual song :P
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#6
Quote by doive
Perhaps to keep the vocals away from the pitch of the voices to make them more distinguishable? It could be very confusing if the pitch of the speaking was similar to the words.


Thats a very good idea actually :P That could be it!
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#7
possibly to speed it up/slow it down, so it fit the runtime for the scene (or rather, a side effect of doing so).
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#8
It could be sped up to run in the allotted time on TV, but the original producers of the film would never do that (and it's not legal to alter a sound recording like that without the licensor's permission). In this case, it's most likely because American film is shot at 24 frames per second. PAL (Eurpoean TV) runs at 25fps. The film is sped up to match the PAL frame rate. This would raise the pitch about 70 cents.
#9
different fps doesnt change the pitch of sound - the speed of the movie and audio remains the same its just that there is one frame more in a second.
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#10
Quote by jrakus
different fps doesnt change the pitch of sound - the speed of the movie and audio remains the same its just that there is one frame more in a second.


Are you kidding? What do you think has to happen for there to be one more frame per second? The film must be played back faster. A film (or any medium) played back at a faster rate than it was recorded will raise the pitch. 25fps is faster than 24fps. This is pretty basic stuff.
#11
Quote by Harmosis
Are you kidding? What do you think has to happen for there to be one more frame per second? The film must be played back faster. A film (or any medium) played back at a faster rate than it was recorded will raise the pitch. 25fps is faster than 24fps. This is pretty basic stuff.


With digital technology now we can quite easily change the pitch of a song without changing its speed.

As for "why", if it is the original recording of the song and it has been manipulated, you'll have to ask the directors of the movie.
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#12
Quote by AlanHB
With digital technology now we can quite easily change the pitch of a song without changing its speed.

As for "why", if it is the original recording of the song and it has been manipulated, you'll have to ask the directors of the movie.


Alan, I work in the industry. This is very common knowledge. Because PAL is so close to American film in frame rate, they simply play American film at the faster rate. This results in a rise in pitch of less than a semitone. Most people don't notice. In the USA, time compression does get pitched back down but not necessarily to the exact original pitch. Also, problems occur with differing sample rates - a musical recording is most often done at 44.1k; sound for film at TV are normally at 48k. Just bringing in an audio track from a CD to a film or TV production will result in a pitch discrepancy on playback. Again, often not too noticeable.
#13
Quote by Harmosis
Alan, I work in the industry. This is very common knowledge. Because PAL is so close to American film in frame rate, they simply play American film at the faster rate. This results in a rise in pitch of less than a semitone. Most people don't notice. In the USA, time compression does get pitched back down but not necessarily to the exact original pitch. Also, problems occur with differing sample rates - a musical recording is most often done at 44.1k; sound for film at TV are normally at 48k. Just bringing in an audio track from a CD to a film or TV production will result in a pitch discrepancy on playback. Again, often not too noticeable.


Interesting, but I don't think that 1fps would result in a full tone difference. It actually would be interesting then to compare the NTSC and PAL releases of DVDs against each other, most Aussie DVD players support both.

What would your theory then be on the full tone difference noticed in the song?
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#14
It could be sped up to run in the allotted time on TV, but the original producers of the film would never do that (and it's not legal to alter a sound recording like that without the licensor's permission). In this case, it's most likely because American film is shot at 24 frames per second. PAL (Eurpoean TV) runs at 25fps. The film is sped up to match the PAL frame rate. This would raise the pitch about 70 cents.

i stand corrected--that was pretty much a stab in the dark.
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#15
Quote by AlanHB
Interesting, but I don't think that 1fps would result in a full tone difference. It actually would be interesting then to compare the NTSC and PAL releases of DVDs against each other, most Aussie DVD players support both.

What would your theory then be on the full tone difference noticed in the song?


First of all, let me say that some PAL transfers actually are pitched back down (but for a TV broadcast, it's so convenient not to). I would think a major DVD release would be for sure.

No, 1fps is about 70-71 cents, certainly not a whole tone. There could be a lot of reasons that the pitch would be off a whole tone - my first question would be, where was the DVD made? Was it a black market copy? When people make illegal copies of films on various pieces of equipment, all kinds of frame rate/sample rate problems can occur. If a film, with 48k sample rate for sound, imported a CD track at 41k, and was played back at even 1fps faster, that would result in a whole tone rise in pitch. Unless a piece of music needs to be perfectly synched with the film, a film maker might not bother with a sample rate conversion (which would account for more than a semitone rise in pitch). Then, if played at 25fps you would get about a whole tone.
#16
I would consider if it was PAL/NTSC framerate difference causing pitch shift, then it would shift the entire audio track (incl. character voices). There are simple ways of changing playback tempo without changing pitch - I can do that with winamp - so I would say professional producers wouldn't miss this.
#17
Quote by doive
Perhaps to keep the vocals away from the pitch of the voices to make them more distinguishable? It could be very confusing if the pitch of the speaking was similar to the words.
I like this reason best.
Si
#18
to keep a common harmonic framework throughout the film? not entirely joking, what was the last song in? maybe they changed it because say there's three songs in a film in a row that are in E major - F major -E major, instead of having those kinda clash as it moves, it's be more pleasing to just move the middle track down a semitone and chances are no one will notice (except on guitar forums like this )

i dunno i think it sounds ok
#19
Quote by Harmosis
Are you kidding? What do you think has to happen for there to be one more frame per second? The film must be played back faster. A film (or any medium) played back at a faster rate than it was recorded will raise the pitch. 25fps is faster than 24fps. This is pretty basic stuff.


Since you state you're in the industry and I'm just speculating I maybe wrong.
So that means if a movie duration is 90minutes in 24fps - then it will be ~88 minutes in 25fps? This just sounds false to me.
In my logic a second in a movie is the same duration no mather what the fps is. Just runs smoother with 25fps because there's one frame more in it.
The same audio track should fit both 24fps and 25fps video.

Ok I read the other posts.. So a conversion to 25fps is made after the mixing in the audio and the 24fps is just sped up to 25fps for convenience sake. That means the same movie actually plays faster at 25fps. So PAL viewers experience a movie faster than NTSC viewers? I can hardly believe that.

Still I think they match the audio pitch AND video speed for DVD releases. What are you saying Morgan Freeman has a different voice in Europe?
Anyway thank you for teaching me something new.
I know Lucifer so well I call him by his first name...I say, "Hey Lou!"
#20
^Good points. Makes me wonder if they actually shoot it a lot higher and render it down to the appropriate fps for PAL or NTSC from the same higher original.

This way it wouldn't be a matter speeding up one or slowing the other. I imagine the rendering process would involve shooting at a much higher frame rate and then removing frames rather than simply speeding it up or slowing it down which seems like a rather mickey mouse approach.

I don't know though but if I were into making movies and had to worry about producing different frame rates for different regions that's how I would go about solving the problem.
Si
#21
Shooting at a more-than-nominally higher frame rate would be like shooting with slow motion cameras.

Like mentioned before, 70 cents really isn't that much. I'd show you a film that you haven't seen before filmed in 24, at 25fps, and you know what? You wouldn't know.

Yes, a movie shot in 24fps played at 25fps plays faster, that is simple math and it not negotiable.


Also, your understanding of fps is wrong.

You shoot 30 seconds of footage in 24fps. The units here are frames per second right? So this means, in those 30 seconds, there are 720 frames.

If you play 720 frames at a rate of 25 frames per second, it will take: 28.8 seconds
30 * 24 = 720 frames.
720 frames / 25 fps = 28.8 seconds.

What the heck do you guys think fast forward is? Fast forward plays things back at a higher frame rate, and the sound is always altered. Same concept.


Also, if you're a TV studio playing an american movie over PAL networks... Do you really think they care enough about the imperceptible differences to alter the entire movie? No. Thats a waste of money.


So a whole tone? The production studio could have done any number of things to the audio to make it sound different, and it is certainly not something which anyone can ascribe an explanation to with any certainty...
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