#1
my band and i are having trouble hearing the rhythm guitar. his sound is very scooped and i assume thats the problem. hes running a metal core through the clean channel and i was wondering how to get a better tone so we can hear him
this signature has my gear in it. nothing more, nothing less

Gear
Ibanez S770PB
Jackson Rhoads
Custom Strat
Agile Al 3100
Rainbow Music Shop Custom Les Paul
Dunlop Crybaby Wah
Bugera 6260 212
Line 6 Spider III
#2
STOP SCOOPING MIDS.


the guitar is a midranged instrument, if you scoop the mids you wont be able to hear him over the bass and drums.


volume could also be an issue.
#3
in ear monitors?
Belief is a beautiful armour but makes for the heaviest sword.
#4
Quote by rickyj
STOP SCOOPING MIDS.


the guitar is a midranged instrument, if you scoop the mids you wont be able to hear him over the bass and drums.


volume could also be an issue.

This
Quote by MangoStarr
i think i love you
#5
Increase the mids.

As "cool" as scooping sounds, you lose like 90% of your volume in the mix. There's a reason why anyone who knows anything about sound mixing will tell you to never scoop the mids.
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


Fender MIM Stratocaster
Fender Jaguar Bass
Epiphone EJ200 Super Jumbo
Fender Excelsior 13w
Acoustic B300HD (with matching 1x12 cab)
BOSS BD-2W
NYC Big Muff Pi
#6
Quote by kangaxxter
Increase the mids.

As "cool" as scooping sounds, you lose like 90% of your volume in the mix. There's a reason why anyone who knows anything about sound mixing will tell you to never scoop the mids.



inb4 "dimebag scoops mids! lawloloool"
#7
we've tried. i have his bass low and turned his mids up. it sounds muddy as poop and idk what else to try
this signature has my gear in it. nothing more, nothing less

Gear
Ibanez S770PB
Jackson Rhoads
Custom Strat
Agile Al 3100
Rainbow Music Shop Custom Les Paul
Dunlop Crybaby Wah
Bugera 6260 212
Line 6 Spider III
#8
Quote by meow1992
we've tried. i have his bass low and turned his mids up. it sounds muddy as poop and idk what else to try


What settings are you using/what amp, guitar and pedals? What is your other guitarist using?

inb4 "dimebag scoops mids! lawloloool"

Dimebag's tone sucked donkey dick and you know it.
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


Fender MIM Stratocaster
Fender Jaguar Bass
Epiphone EJ200 Super Jumbo
Fender Excelsior 13w
Acoustic B300HD (with matching 1x12 cab)
BOSS BD-2W
NYC Big Muff Pi
#10
loads of metal guitarists scoop mids, i played enter sandman live a few months back as the rythm guitarist with mids scooped and i was fine
#11
my tone is good to go. my partners using a marshall-type of amp with the metal core. the clean channel is set with the bass at 4, mids at 7 and treb at 6. pedal bass is at 3 and treb is at 5 with dist at 6
this signature has my gear in it. nothing more, nothing less

Gear
Ibanez S770PB
Jackson Rhoads
Custom Strat
Agile Al 3100
Rainbow Music Shop Custom Les Paul
Dunlop Crybaby Wah
Bugera 6260 212
Line 6 Spider III
#12
Quote by nojeremy
a better guitar?


The same will happen with a billion pound guitar..

Sounds like hes EQ-ing his Equalizer.
Put one of them all at 12 oclock
if you keep eqing ur eq's you cant hold control of it, its getting waaaaaaay to muddy,

Bass 7 Mids 5 Treble 8, Worked great with marshalls
Last edited by Dennis_SG at Apr 20, 2011,
#13
Quote by kangaxxter



Dimebag's tone sucked donkey dick and you know it.



i agree.
#14
Quote by meow1992
my tone is good to go. my partners using a marshall-type of amp with the metal core. the clean channel is set with the bass at 4, mids at 7 and treb at 6. pedal bass is at 3 and treb is at 5 with dist at 6



The problem seems odd. The settings seem right, yet if he's still having this problem, it might be more about his equipment, not about what he's doing with it.

So, what guitar is he using, and what type of marshall? Model names would be preferred. The more information you provide the easier this will be.

Also, If you aren't hearing him through the mix, the solution may reside in your gear. Having two guitarists can have the problem of just making mud, often times you have to change the settings for both players until you have something you are content with.
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


Fender MIM Stratocaster
Fender Jaguar Bass
Epiphone EJ200 Super Jumbo
Fender Excelsior 13w
Acoustic B300HD (with matching 1x12 cab)
BOSS BD-2W
NYC Big Muff Pi
#15
Quote by rickyj
STOP SCOOPING MIDS.


the guitar is a midranged instrument, if you scoop the mids you wont be able to hear him over the bass and drums.


volume could also be an issue.
Bullshit.

You turn him up. A lot of guitar sounds are actually quite powerful with scooped mids. Listen to some Thrash for instance. Powerful as hell, scooped mids. Why? THEY TURNED THE VOLUME UP.
#16
whats are the amp wattages and pa speaker wattages being used onstage?

i have a very low wattage amp (30 watts, and its basically a hybrid amp. multiple tubes but not full tube circuit. half stack 4x10) anyhow, my other guitarist has a tiny fender combo 60 watt (all tube. 1x15) i play a les paul, he plays a g&l strat

we both run through the pa, his 'master' on his amp is probably 1.5/2 and mine is just over halfway.

even though my amp is WAY less powerfull, due to my (almost exessive) midrange i ALWAYS pop through the mix like crazy. i have a very lynyrd skynyrd tone and he has a more scooped, trebly (almost punkish) tone. wattage isnt always everything...

my point is MIDRANGE always cuts through the mix like a knife, as previously stated in the posts above... i think i just felt a story might help haha
#17
I hate this "is scoped mids better" thread, lets face it,

There is no such thing as the best sound,

Try rolling back mids, if that doesnt solve it, its not the mids.
#18
Quote by crazysam23_Atax
Bullshit.

You turn him up. A lot of guitar sounds are actually quite powerful with scooped mids. Listen to some Thrash for instance. Powerful as hell, scooped mids. Why? THEY TURNED THE VOLUME UP.


im gonna disagree and ask you to read my previous post. i feel once you start turning the guitars up in the mix to make them come out more, thats when everybody starts turning up to compete and eventually frequencies start getting crossed out and overpowered and it just turns to loud noise.

ive played with metal bands, blues bands, jazz bands ect and always come across certain groups who constantly feel turning something up is the best way to fix a bad mix... some of the best mix's ive ever heard have been at reasonable volume where everything has headroom...

i could be wrong.
#19
The Metal Core is probably a lot of the problem. But like said, we need to know exactly what his gear is, so we can identify the probably problem.
Spin 'round carousel when your horse isn't screwed in.

My band:
Fractured Instinct
(For fans of Death/Groove/Prog Metal)

Ibanez RGA42E
Ibanez S420
LTD H-301
Ibanez RG520
Peavey Predator USA
Douglas Grendel 725
Line 6 Pod HD500X
#20
Quote by legion69
whats are the amp wattages and pa speaker wattages being used onstage?

i have a very low wattage amp (30 watts, and its basically a hybrid amp. multiple tubes but not full tube circuit. half stack 4x10) anyhow, my other guitarist has a tiny fender combo 60 watt (all tube. 1x15) i play a les paul, he plays a g&l strat

we both run through the pa, his 'master' on his amp is probably 1.5/2 and mine is just over halfway.

even though my amp is WAY less powerfull, due to my (almost exessive) midrange i ALWAYS pop through the mix like crazy. i have a very lynyrd skynyrd tone and he has a more scooped, trebly (almost punkish) tone. wattage isnt always everything...

my point is MIDRANGE always cuts through the mix like a knife, as previously stated in the posts above... i think i just felt a story might help haha


It might also be that your speakers are driving almost twice as much air as his. Speaker size has a huge effect on volume. A 5W 1X12 is practically twice as loud as a 5w 1X6. If you tried plugging any 30w into your 4X10 cab, it would sound louder than any almost any other head plugged into single 1X15.

EDIT:
You turn him up. A lot of guitar sounds are actually quite powerful with scooped mids. Listen to some Thrash for instance. Powerful as hell, scooped mids. Why? THEY TURNED THE VOLUME UP.

If you mic'd a fart and plugged it through an 1000w speaker it would cut through the mix, too, but it wouldn't sound any less like a fart.

Besides, EQ'ing is all about the economy of sound. A guitar with a high mid-range at low volumes will cut through the mix a lot easier than a guitar with scooped mids at high volumes. At a certain point you are putting a lot of power into your mix and not getting the sound that you need.

Plus, you'll lose the guitar to the sound of the bass, bass drums and cymbals, if you scoop the mids (Unless you just play through a really ****ing loud amp, which then you'd lose the bass and the cymbals). At certain frequencies you begin competing with other instruments that are much, much better at controlling those frequencies than a guitar is. It's why bassists and drummers have to be in sync--so that they're complimenting, not competing with each other.

Scooping the mids is fine for "loads of metal players", but loads of metal players also don't know the first thing about sound engineering or EQ'ing (which is don't scoop the mids).
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


Fender MIM Stratocaster
Fender Jaguar Bass
Epiphone EJ200 Super Jumbo
Fender Excelsior 13w
Acoustic B300HD (with matching 1x12 cab)
BOSS BD-2W
NYC Big Muff Pi
Last edited by kangaxxter at Apr 20, 2011,
#21
Quote by kangaxxter
It might also be that your speakers are driving almost twice as much air as his. Speaker size has a huge effect on volume. A 5W 1X12 is practically twice as loud as a 5w 1X6. If you tried plugging any 30w into your 4X10 cab, it would sound louder than any almost any other head plugged into single 1X15.



i see your point and agree, but i dont think it would be quite like that would it... it would be too hard to measure 60 watts through 1x15 vs. 30 watts through 4x10 in my opinion. not to mention the differences in power between hybrid vs true tube circuit design

so with that logic, if i ran 2 4x10 cabs (4 ohms paralel) would it be louder decibels than 1 4x10 running at 8ohm?
#22
Quote by legion69

so with that logic, if i ran 2 4x10 cabs (4 ohms paralel) would it be louder decibels than 1 4x10 running at 8ohm?


**** if I know, I use combos.
Actually, I go by Dave, but there are already too many Daves on this forum.


Fender MIM Stratocaster
Fender Jaguar Bass
Epiphone EJ200 Super Jumbo
Fender Excelsior 13w
Acoustic B300HD (with matching 1x12 cab)
BOSS BD-2W
NYC Big Muff Pi
#24
It might just be your volume, but if you're so stupid that you leave the volume too low and then wonder why you can't hear anything then, well..... just stop playing.

It's far more likely to be your mids and that godforsaken metal core pedal.


The way I see it, band mix from the rock and metal rhythm guitarist's perspective goes like this:

Your job is to fill out the sound, to provide a basic floor that's consistent that everything else will build off of. You need a sound that fills in the gaps the other instruments leave without overshadowing them.

You're not going to out-bass the bass guitar and drums, so don't even try. Your bass control should be kept pretty much in the middle of its range.

You're not the lead guitar, you don't need to cut through to the front of the mix ever so don't try to max out your treble and presence knobs.

If you think you should be heard over the vocals then you're simply a gigantic twat. Your volume should sit below both the bass guitar and lead guitar. On level with or just above the drums is perfect.


So that's bass, treble and excessive volume thrown out. So what have you got left? Sensible use of mids and clever gear selection.

People seem to think mids need to either be rolled all the way back or maxed out. That's stupid. We have variable knobs and not 2-position flick switches for a reason. Stick your mids at 50-66% depending on if you have a thick or thin-toned guitar and pickups. That's enough to keep your playing well defined and to make you audible without having to rely on pure volume but it's not so much that you'll get confused with the lead guitar.

Throw the metal core pedal out. Pedals with "metal" in the name almost always come with scooped mids and compression on the bass regardless of where you put their tone controls and the ML-2 isn't even that great of a pedal. If your amp can't get metal enough by itself and you do need a distortion pedal then invest in a really good standard distortion pedal rather than anything called "metal". Most good and iconic metal tones were made with standard amps with standard overdrives in front of them, most standard distortion pedals capture this sound while metal ones **** it up. The Boss DS-2 and MD-2 are good basic distortion units and the Digitech hardwire SC-2 is pretty much the only distortion pedal you should ever need, though it does cost a little more than most.

Don't use really aggressive pickups unless the lead guitar and bass are also doing so. A rhythm guitar with a Dimarzio X2N and a lead guitar with a Fender Telecaster Texas Special is always going to sound unbalanced.

Open-back cabs help fill a space with more even sound while closed-back cabs pretty much just project a wall sound in one direction. Even with the same guitars into the same amps with the same EQ and using the same speakers, having one cab open-backed and the other closed-back can do a lot to seperate rhythm from lead respectively.


Being a good rhythm player is one of the hardest jobs in the band because it requires more restraint than anything else, other than maybe the synth player if you have one. Playing rhythm is all about knowing your place and covering everone else's asses. Simply being heard shouldn't be your main concern. It's simple to fix unless you're a moron, in which case you're going to be a crap rhythm player anyway.




Longest. Post. Ever.
#26
Quote by grohl1987
Simply being heard shouldn't be your main concern. It's simple to fix unless you're a moron, in which case you're going to be a crap rhythm player anyway./QUOTE]
Everything you said was all cool, until you said this.
He's not the rhythm player, he's the lead player. His issue isn't that he can't hear himself, but rather that he can't hear the other guitar player.



Please actually take the time to read the OP when responding to a thread, especially when it might help calling him a moron when you have absolutely no reason to.

ANYWAY, on topic:
Like grohlnumbers said, the Metalcore pedal isn't your friend here. What's the on-board gain like on his amp? Have you actually tried it? You really don't even need THAT much distortion. I've found that, when playing in my band, if I use less gain for my rhythm tone, I can get just as heavy a tone with a lot less mud, and I'm no longer competing with the other guitarist. He can fill the nice, rough, grainy parts, and I can have something smooth for my sound. ERRBODYHAPPY
Fender 72' Deluxe Tele
Schecter Damian Elite 7
Fender '62 Reissue Jazz Bass (MIJ)
Peavey XXX 212 (back on the East Coast)

Macbook Pro 15" Retina
Logic Pro X 10.0.7
Revalver 4
LePou Amp Sims
Ignite Amp Sims
LeCab2
RedWirez Impulses
#27
Quote by kumamilesbear
Please actually take the time to read the OP when responding to a thread, especially when it might help calling him a moron when you have absolutely no reason to.
OP asks the question, I respond to OP. Half the time you can tell people are asking awkward questions pretending someone else wants to know to avoid themselves some embarrassment. That may or may not be the case here; frankly, I don't care either way. Alternatively, someone might search for this kind of info later. It's easier to digest information when it's addressed as if to you than to a third party.

Lead guitarists should really learn and think about this stuff anyway. I've seen way too many local rock and metal bands where neither guitarist knows how to work around and with the other.
#28
Quote by rickyj
inb4 "dimebag scoops mids! lawloloool"

most guitarists with sooped tones scoop their mids with graphic or parametric EQs as opposed to the standard 3-band EQs on their amps, so they are just scooping out a section of the midrange and not the whole lot.
I like analogue Solid State amps that make no effort to be "tube-like", and I'm proud of it...

...A little too proud, to be honest.