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#1
So...

As many of you know, a dog named Jon Venables and some other guy brutally murdered a 2 year old boy [James Bulger] on the 12th of November 1993. The pair of them abucted the toddler and then tortured and killed him. There may have been sexual abuse in there too. They did horrid things, such as throw bricks at James, drop a TEN KG metal bar on him and tie him to train tracks.

I'm not done yet.

The killers were 10 years old at the time.
Anyway, after the scum were jailed, they were released and given NEW IDENTITIES.

Do you think this can be justified?
I'm talking about the new identities part.


I don't think they should have got new identities. They should either
1. Have to live with what they've done and be harassed for it etc
2. Be sentenced to death. I don't care if they were 10 at the time.
Before you even play the "They're only 10!" thing, bear in mind that this murder was brutal, shocking and plain disgusting. What kind of 10 year old does this?
3. Sentence the sick f--cks to life imprisonment. I mean it when I say LIFE. They took away Bulger's oppurtunity to grow up and have a life. Venables and Thompson should never have that oppurtunity.

So pit, what do YOU think?

EDIT: Venables was re-imprisoned for having child porn on his computer.
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Last edited by Woffelz at Apr 21, 2011,
#2
i agree with you, i also think that the murderers parents need to have some charges for not raising their own kids properly.
IT'S OVER 9000!!!!
#3
Mate thats not all one of the kids that did this has been done on charges of having indecent pictures of children on his personal computer. The system is all wrong dude.

And to answer your question, No I don't think its justified its pretty shamefull that we protect people like this. Thats all I have to say
#4
Edit: ^^ Yep I added that to the OP

I want John Venables and the other dick skinned alive and slowly burned in acid.
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Last edited by Woffelz at Apr 21, 2011,
#6
I can see why this would anger you or anyone else for that matter. But your version of justice disturbs me alittle. Sorry dude

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
#7
Quote by Dirge Humani
I hope you never get put on jury duty.


You better hope you don't get prosecuted.
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#8
What do you suggest instead?

They have done sick, sick, sick things. I remember first reading about this when I was a lot younger (being about the same age of the murdered lad when it happened) and actually losing sleep over it/being affected by hearing what they did.

As someone who studies criminal law in the UK I have to learn a lot about these sorts of cases and the courts have to find a middle ground between what the general public want (lynching it would seem) and what the courts feel is appropriate.

It's annoying that things like this are completely blown out of proportion by the media and people feel some sort of personal vendetta against the perpetrators. Yes it was disgusting and vile and I think they should be locked up for a lot longer, but you have to remember it's the courts that deal punishment out, and they have seen so so so many cases along these lines, do you think you know better than people who deal with this stuff every day?

Just an aside, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you dude.


edit: typos and also; the title of the thread is pretty misleading.

RMF


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And not waving but drowning.
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.
Last edited by Mr. La Fritz at Apr 21, 2011,
#9
Quote by Mr. La Fritz
What do you suggest instead?

They have done sick, sick, sick things. I remember first reading about this when I was a lot younger (being about the same age of the murdered lad when it happened) and actually losing sleep over it/being affected by hearing what they did.

As someone who studies criminal law in the UK I have to learn a lot about these sorts of cases and the courts have to find a middle ground between what the general public want (lynching it would seem) and what the courts feel is appropriate.

It's annoying that things like this are completely blown out of proportion by the media and people feel some sort of personal vendetta against the perpetrators. Yes it was disgusting and vile and I think they should be locked up for a lot longer, but you have to remember it's the courts that deal punishment out, and they have seen so so so many cases along these lines, do you think you know better than people who deal with this stuff every day?

Just an aside, I'm not agreeing or disreeing with you dude.


Shouldn't the public decided?
After all, the killers did brutally kill a toddler and they posed a threat to the public/society
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#11
Erm... no they shouldn't because 90% of people are ignorant on the subject of punishment, case in point, this thread. If you make a set of rules for two guys, you have to use those rules on EVERYONE or the system is even more 'currupt' (as you call it) than it is now.

There's a reason why we leave it up to judges to decide on punishments.

RMF


I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.
#12
Judges think it's fair to give two vile murderers a new life?
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#14
Quote by Woffelz
Shouldn't the public decided?

In no ****ing way should the public decide. Is a lynching mob really your idea of justice?

After all, the killers did brutally kill a toddler and they posed a threat to the public/society

And they have now served their time, what more do you want?
#15
Do you actually know what sentences they served? Do you actually know the laws surrounding homicide and it's punishments? Until you do it's pretty difficult to pass comment on what 'should' or 'shouldn't' happen to murderers.

They will never have a 'new life' due to the constant harrassment from the media and public. They were pretty much ****ed up in prison too as far as I recall cause all the other inmates targeted them so badly.

This is why I hate this debate cause I always sound like I'm sticking up for them, when obviously I think they should suffer in prison more, however vigilante justice ain't good in my opinion...

RMF


I was much further out than you thought
And not waving but drowning.
I was much too far out all my life
And not waving but drowning.
#16
Quote by T.s.e
In no ****ing way should the public decide. Is a lynching mob really your idea of justice?


And they have now served their time, what more do you want?


Yes it is. Lol

They hurt the public. It's fair the public decide what happens to em.
They should have been abusing Bulger in the first place.
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#17
They should've stayed in prison. They pretty much have been let off the hook.
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#18
Quote by SlipknotRule93
They should've stayed in prison. They pretty much have been let off the hook.


Yeah

Venables got put back into prison for possession of child porn
Woffelz

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#19
Quote by Woffelz
Yes it is. Lol

They hurt the public. It's fair the public decide what happens to em.

They should have been abusing Bulger in the first place.

I assume they were tried by a jury of their peers. So there you fucking go, case closed.
#20
Quote by Nothingface
I can see why this would anger you or anyone else for that matter. But your version of justice disturbs me alittle. Sorry dude

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"



Correction:

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world have one eye each, which merely reduces depth perception. Unless there's an odd number of people in the world, in which case one lucky guy does become blind."
#21
My aunt was the public liason officer for the Bulger family from when the murder happened to when the kids got sentenced, she saw how it affected the family first hand. She met the killers, and admits that there's more to what the media put out. They were mentally insecure from what i can gather, so condemning them because of this is maybe a little too far.
They've done their time for that murder and now they've grown and had counselling they're different people.
Of course it's still disgusting, but imprisoning them at such young ages has affected them psychologically as well. The child porn on Venables computer was probably a product of being ostracized by society and not growing up experiencing the world as a 'normal' child would.
#22
Quote by Woffelz
Yeah

Venables got put back into prison for possession of child porn


But didn't he get let out again, or was the other one who was in trouble recently?
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#23
Quote by Woffelz
They hurt the public. It's fair the public decide what happens to em.

No they didn't, they hurt a boy called James Bulger.


I'm sorry but the idea that you or any of the public whose pretty much only source of information on this case is the media, and source on the criminal justice system is most likely near NOTHING, know how better to handle this than proffessionals who deal with this every day, have been educated for years in handling such matter, and actually knew every situation surrounding this case is ridiculous.

These guys won't have just been turfed loose or anything, shoved out the prison door with a fresh passport and a "goodbye, good luck!" they will have been monitored by parole services for quite some time, been placed on the sex offenders register i would imagine, have a criminal record...
They didn't get "off the hook", they were tried to give an opportunity to live a useful life rather than being a burden on everyone being locked up for something they did when ten years old.
#24
Quote by FrauVfromPoB
Correction:

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world have one eye each, which merely reduces depth perception. Unless there's an odd number of people in the world, in which case one lucky guy does become blind."


you disagree with Ghandi. Fair one
#25
Quote by SG_dave
My aunt was the public liason officer for the Bulger family from when the murder happened to when the kids got sentenced, she saw how it affected the family first hand. She met the killers, and admits that there's more to what the media put out. They were mentally insecure from what i can gather, so condemning them because of this is maybe a little too far.
They've done their time for that murder and now they've grown and had counselling they're different people.
Of course it's still disgusting, but imprisoning them at such young ages has affected them psychologically as well. The child porn on Venables computer was probably a product of being ostracized by society and not growing up experiencing the world as a 'normal' child would.

basically this (except the part about my aunty being the public liaison officer).

I could understand people wanting them to spend longer in prison before being given a second chance, but they were kids. Seriously ****ed up kids, yes but kids nevertheless.

Give them the opportunity to have a life. If they **** up again (as one already has) then by all means put them back in prison but I think they were young enough to have a chance at rehabilitation.
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Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#26
Quote by Woffelz

They hurt the public. It's fair the public decide what happens to em.

Your stupidity hurts me. I'm part of the public. Does that mean that I get to decide whether or not to dip you in a vat of acid?
#27
Quote by Nothingface
Mate thats not all one of the kids that did this has been done on charges of having indecent pictures of children on his personal computer

Wait, hold up, you mean there's laws against that?
#28
Quote by Woffelz
Shouldn't the public decided?
After all, the killers did brutally kill a toddler and they posed a threat to the public/society

With that kind of attitude we could put Beiber on trial for being annoying.
#29
Man, some responses in the pit make me think that in the future, we're just going to pat murderers on the back, smile, tell them not to do it again, give them a lollipop, and send them on their merry way.
#30
Quote by RU Experienced?
Wait, hold up, you mean there's laws against that?


Unfortunatley for you yes there is :p
#31
Quote by Lost Dog
Man, some responses in the pit make me think that in the future, we're just going to pat murderers on the back, smile, tell them not to do it again, give them a lollipop, and send them on their merry way.

some responses make me think that in the future we're going to all be murderers so you better hope they pat us on the back, smile and tell us not to do it again, give us a lollipop and send us on our merry way.
Rhythm in Jump. Dancing Close to You.

Quote by element4433
Yeah. people, like Lemoninfluence, are hypocrites and should have all their opinions invalidated from here on out.
#32
Quote by Lost Dog
Man, some responses in the pit make me think that in the future, we're just going to pat murderers on the back, smile, tell them not to do it again, give them a lollipop, and send them on their merry way.

As said, that's not what's happened at all, nor is it what people are suggesting.

I honestly can't see why retribution (if we completely set aside the issues of age) is better than rehabilitation. Why do you feel it is better to sit someone in a cell to rot rather than to rehabilitate them so they are no longer a danger to society and can be useful and lead a useful life?

These murderers are people the same as you, just often maladjusted, misinformed, or misjudged of action. These are not things that cannot be changed.
#33
Quote by MadClownDisease
As said, that's not what's happened at all, nor is it what people are suggesting.

I honestly can't see why retribution (if we completely set aside the issues of age) is better than rehabilitation. Why do you feel it is better to sit someone in a cell to rot rather than to rehabilitate them so they are no longer a danger to society and can be useful and lead a useful life?

These murderers are people the same as you, just often maladjusted, misinformed, or misjudged of action. These are not things that cannot be changed.

Retribution =/= punishment. Some would say that by not punishing a criminal, you aren't treating them like an adult human being who can make choices and deal with the consequences. Instead you're treating them like a child.
#34
Quote by Lost Dog
Man, some responses in the pit make me think that in the future, we're just going to pat murderers on the back, smile, tell them not to do it again, give them a lollipop, and send them on their merry way.

Yeah, because that's totally what people have said. Not that they had their fair share of justice and now it's time to offer them redemption and allow them to assume a normal life...


I think it's entirely reasonable and justified they are given new identities. Imagine if you were forever known and picked on for being the kid who pissed in a locker at school and because of this you couldn't get a job, couldn't get a house, had no friends etc. It was a fúcking ridiculously stupid thing they did, but who are you to say they don't deserve a second chance? For a start TS, you're like 15...
#35
Quote by MadClownDisease
No they didn't, they hurt a boy called James Bulger.


I'm sorry but the idea that you or any of the public whose pretty much only source of information on this case is the media, and source on the criminal justice system is most likely near NOTHING, know how better to handle this than proffessionals who deal with this every day, have been educated for years in handling such matter, and actually knew every situation surrounding this case is ridiculous.



Bam.
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#36
I think it was handled well. If they were 6 years older I would have beaten them to death myself but they were two 10 year old boys neglected and abused by their parents.

Blame the parents. You don't shout at a ten year old if they run around a restaurant being annoying because it's a kid. If it was a 16 year old you would be like "Shut the **** up" because they know better.

IMO they were to young to understand what they were doing.
#37
I'm familiar with this case, I learned about it in a criminal justice class.

I support the decision to give them new identities. The idea of jail as punishment is to just that, punishment. And once the punishment is served, they're released and, if they are released, it's like saying they've paid the price. Once you serve your term, you shouldn't pay more.

That's just the way the legal system works.
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#38
Quote by Nothingface
I can see why this would anger you or anyone else for that matter. But your version of justice disturbs me alittle. Sorry dude

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"


"And where the offense is, let the great axe fall."

I rather the world blind but my sense of justice satisfied.

Killing a person is a punishment to simple.
I would have them exiled from society and deny them any treatment. The ghosts of their pasts shalll haunt them ololololol.
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Last edited by Grimriffer at Apr 21, 2011,
#39
I don't think they should be killed, just jailed for life.

If you kill them, that would probably be painless (gas chamber, injection etc.).

But if you let them rot in maximum security prison, with a bunch of other murderers...
Now there's a different story...
#40
Quote by captaincrunk
Retribution =/= punishment. Some would say that by not punishing a criminal, you aren't treating them like an adult human being who can make choices and deal with the consequences. Instead you're treating them like a child.

I don't want to use a term you view as loaded, so okay I will avoid that term (though a google search seems to show near all definitions as being punishment - for example "2. Something given or demanded in repayment, especially punishment."), but then what do you see as the nature and purpose of punishment?

If it is something that the criminal can weather and be no different afterwards, then I see:
A) no point to it
B) no difference between that and punishment for the sake of punishment - ie an eye for an eye, or what I would understand as the concept of retribution

This helps nobody.

If the sentence is something to deter or change behaviour, then there we go, that's the point surely? (eg what I would view as rehabilitation, in simplistic terms)

Dipping these people in acid changes nothing and helps noone.
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