#1
Ok, some of you may have seen my post ''stuck on chord progression''.
Well this is kind of the same topic but more specific.
So I've got this progression:ii V and then this one as some sort of bridge pre chorus thingy: V IV.
What could I possibly do to move to the next.
By the way, these progressions aren't very specific they use alot of sus chords.
And how do I exactly move to the next, is there like a secret rule that's like ''if you go from this chord down a fifth, up a third, up your ass and around the corner then play a random other chord it would sound good.''?
#2
Quote by liampje
Ok, some of you may have seen my post ''stuck on chord progression''.
Well this is kind of the same topic but more specific.
So I've got this progression:ii V and then this one as some sort of bridge pre chorus thingy: V IV.
What could I possibly do to move to the next.
By the way, these progressions aren't very specific they use alot of sus chords.
And how do I exactly move to the next, is there like a secret rule that's like ''if you go from this chord down a fifth, up a third, up your ass and around the corner then play a random other chord it would sound good.''?



You'd want to study cadences, voice leading, keys, and maybe start breaking down other songs. To answer your question, there's no secret rule, that would be summarized the way you put it. It never hurts to understand how to name every chord, and what notes make up a chord. I have 13 chords I can go to at any time, just on the triad-ic level, when doing this, because I understand the big picture.

Best,

Sean
#3
Yep, you gotta just listen/hear in your head what you want and with time you'll understand what will work. There's no rule that works in every case.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#4
Quote by Sean0913
You'd want to study cadences, voice leading, keys, and maybe start breaking down other songs. To answer your question, there's no secret rule, that would be summarized the way you put it. It never hurts to understand how to name every chord, and what notes make up a chord. I have 13 chords I can go to at any time, just on the triad-ic level, when doing this, because I understand the big picture.

Best,

Sean

On Wikipedia I just read about voice leading and I understood that those are mostly inverted chords with the same lowest note.
Like when you move from an A min triad to an inverted D triad that goes like A-D-F#.
Then the A remains as the first note while the C and E change to D and F#.
Keys are the tonal center.
And are those 13 chords like accidental chords?
I mean like you go in B major to An A chord,I noticed that in a Vai song called Hand on Heart.
It's just in the way you play over the chord.
But how many cadences are there.
I've once read on wikipedia don't know what it's called again.
Something like middle aged phrygian cadence.
I know authentic cadence and the plagal or hallelujah cadence.
And are there cadences that don't end on the I?
#5
Quote by food1010
Yep, you gotta just listen/hear in your head what you want and with time you'll understand what will work. There's no rule that works in every case.

So actually, I need to make like trial songs now.
Sort of applying theory in my music?
#6
Quote by liampje
is there like a secret rule that's like ''if you go from this chord down a fifth, up a third, up your ass and around the corner then play a random other chord it would sound good.''?



What you do is listen, and then find chords that sound good to you.

Music comes from the human mind, not from a theory book.

now if you want to study music, thats where theory comes in. Then what you've learned becomes part of what you have to work with artistically.

You don't just string fancy words together and follow rules dictated to you by random people online.

Also music is an artform. It's not like a sport where you get a penalty for breaking a rule.
The "rules" you come across in a theory book, are simply guidelines to teach you particular concepts. What's "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong" is really up to you as an artist.
if you're not ready to make those decisions (as indicated by the existence of this thread), you probably need more experience playing/studying music 1st. No need to rush... enjoy it. You'll be writing music when you're ready for it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 24, 2011,
#7
The "rules" of music theory are just explanations of why certain things sound good to your ear. The more you study it, the more aware of the options available you will be, but your ear will always tell you if what you're doing sounds right. You have to let go of thinking mathematically and return to listening creatively.
#8
Quote by GuitarMunky
What you do is listen, and then find chords that sound good to you.

Music comes from the human mind, not from a theory book.

now if you want to study music, thats where theory comes in. Then what you've learned becomes part of what you have to work with artistically.

You don't just string fancy words together and follow rules dictated to you by random people online.

Also music is an artform. It's not like a sport where you get a penalty for breaking a rule.
The "rules" you come across in a theory book, are simply guidelines to teach you particular concepts. What's "good" or "bad" or "right" or "wrong" is really up to you as an artist.
if you're not ready to make those decisions (as indicated by the existence of this thread), you probably need more experience playing/studying music 1st. No need to rush... enjoy it. You'll be writing music when you're ready for it.

So actually, I shouldn't think ''hmmmm, A imperfect authentic cadence will sound good here then I'm going to play a surprising chord in this key which I will resolve to the first minor chord.'',but more like ''hmmmm I have a IV V progression, now I will try to get something nice out of it and then when I finish this piece looking it up in a theory book.''?
because I was already afraid of giving up theory if I'd have to think in little boxes, like you HAVE to end on the I chord.
#9
Quote by liampje
So actually, I shouldn't think ''hmmmm, A imperfect authentic cadence will sound good here then I'm going to play a surprising chord in this key which I will resolve to the first minor chord.'',but more like ''hmmmm I have a IV V progression, now I will try to get something nice out of it and then when I finish this piece looking it up in a theory book.''?


Correct.... you shouldn't take that approach.

Learn what those concepts are by studying existing music written by experienced composers.

utilize the concepts in your own work when you see fit, and when you have enough experience to make those decisions.




Quote by liampje

because I was already afraid of giving up theory if I'd have to think in little boxes, like you HAVE to end on the I chord.


Don't give up studying theory. Give up your approach. it's like your trying to following a compositional recipe book. You're getting random advice by people that may or may not have a clue, and your taking that advice out of context and trying to directly apply it to your own compositions.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 24, 2011,
#10
Quote by GuitarMunky
Correct.... you shouldn't take that approach.

Learn what those concepts are by studying existing music written by experienced composers.

utilize the concepts in your own work when you see fit, and when you have enough experience to make those decisions.




Don't give up studying theory. Give up your approach. it's like your trying to following a compositional recipe book. You're getting random advice by people that may or may not have a clue, and your taking that advice out of context and trying to directly apply it to your own compositions.

Shouldn't these learned things get into my brain and that I need to do it on feeling again?
So like my ears have hear a plagal cadence.
And then I'll use it unconscious but still that I can recognize the plagal cadence when I scan the music.
#11
Quote by liampje
Shouldn't these learned things get into my brain and that I need to do it on feeling again?
So like my ears have hear a plagal cadence.
And then I'll use it unconscious but still that I can recognize the plagal cadence when I scan the music.
Yeah. Theory is best used to identify rather than to create with.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#12
Quote by liampje
On Wikipedia I just read about voice leading and I understood that those are mostly inverted chords with the same lowest note.
Like when you move from an A min triad to an inverted D triad that goes like A-D-F#.
Then the A remains as the first note while the C and E change to D and F#.
Keys are the tonal center.
And are those 13 chords like accidental chords?
I mean like you go in B major to An A chord,I noticed that in a Vai song called Hand on Heart.
It's just in the way you play over the chord.
But how many cadences are there.
I've once read on wikipedia don't know what it's called again.
Something like middle aged phrygian cadence.
I know authentic cadence and the plagal or hallelujah cadence.
And are there cadences that don't end on the I?


The 13 chords are not like accidental chords, and they are not in any theory book that I know of, as in "Here are 13 chords", but they are something I teach at the end of other theory that I teach, so that whomever I'm showing this to has a context to what my own practice and observations are. It's not a rule per se, but I just have more understood options. When I share it with students, and what I've learned as an application from them, they have a solid foundation and can grasp why it works, not just that is does work.

I don't know how many cadences there are, but you have heard and used them long before you knew them, they just put the light on whats been happening for years in music before you ever knew or realized that things WERE happening.

There are cadences that don't end on the I.

Talk to your guitar instructor about this.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at Apr 24, 2011,
#13
Quote by liampje
So actually, I need to make like trial songs now.
Sort of applying theory in my music?


Alright everyone correct me if I'm wrong because I really don't want to mess you up but this is how I do it and it always works for me...

The idea to writing a chord progression is to use theory to write out your music, but not to create it.

When creating the music you need to actually hear the chord progression in your head that you want, without naming the chords, and without knowing exactly why it sounds good. After the progression is worked out in your head, I find out how to play it, still without paying attention to the theory side of things. Only after that do I like at all the notes involved and how it works, and then I can write it down and use theory to edit it and make it exactly how I want it.

I find this works much better than writing out chord progressions and trying to force them to fit together.
"When that day comes I shall Futterwacken ... vigorously."
~ The Mad Hatter



#14
Ok, I think everyone means this:
I need to learn the sounds of the theory I learn, then I need to just think whats in my head and maybe, if I liked it, I'd unconsciously add it in my piece?
Or do you guys say: Learn theory, don't apply it in your music, scan after te whole writing part what theory you've used.
Or do you guys say: Learn theory, don't apply it, get it into your system for a couple of years or months, then use it.
You guys' pick.
#15
I think we'd all say "start from the start, and always apply everything you have learnt as you go along so that you completely understand what it is".

Otherwise your question is the same as me going "I have a song in E major, the verse goes F#m - B, and in the chorus' it goes B - A; what should I play next?". You can play anything next.
And no, Guitar Hero will not help. Even on expert. Really.
Soundcloud
#16
Quote by liampje
Ok, I think everyone means this:
I need to learn the sounds of the theory I learn, then I need to just think whats in my head and maybe, if I liked it, I'd unconsciously add it in my piece?
Or do you guys say: Learn theory, don't apply it in your music, scan after te whole writing part what theory you've used.
Or do you guys say: Learn theory, don't apply it, get it into your system for a couple of years or months, then use it.
You guys' pick.


Just because you aren't focusing on the theory side of things while creating your song doesn't mean your not applying theory. You should be able to apply theory to your music without thinking about it. For example, often times you can take someone who knows nothing about theory and have him write a catchy tune. Most people will apply theory in there tunes, and not even know what they are applying, they just know it sounds good.

So out of the options you gave I would pick the first one. Knowing your theory is very important, but it shouldn't be what your focusing on when creating your song, it should just come naturally. And the better you know your theory, the more you'll be able to apply it naturally in your song writing.

Hope that explains things better than my first post, I just re read it and I completely slaughtered the point I was trying to make...
"When that day comes I shall Futterwacken ... vigorously."
~ The Mad Hatter



#17
Quote by liampje
Shouldn't these learned things get into my brain and that I need to do it on feeling again?
So like my ears have hear a plagal cadence.
And then I'll use it unconscious but still that I can recognize the plagal cadence when I scan the music.


look at this way. When you read a sentence it will likely contain things like verbs, and nouns, and even fancier terms like past participles, but the sentence generally isn't ABOUT verbs, nouns, or part participles, it's ABOUT what you're trying to express.

Same concept with music.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 26, 2011,