Page 1 of 2
#1
i always hear some tone or another is "marshall"-style, and another tone or another is "fender"-style.

i'm a serious tone-tard. what are the characteristics of marshall-style, vs fender-style? and what makes them so?

also, its my understanding that almost all amplifiers are based off of the 2. such as Mesa Boogie being based off of modified fenders, and a whole bunch of other amplifier companies being based off of modified marshalls
#2
google the amps and judge for yourself
Suhr Custom, Flaxwood Rautia or Grosh Tele thru
HBE Medicine Bawl Wah
Analogman BiComp
Texas Two Step OD
Fulltone Ultimate Octave/Fuzz
Boss CE-2
TC Nova Delay
SLO-100, 65 London or Bogner Shiva
Ask me about any of this stuff!
#3
Marshall is glassier and has a prominent midrange.

Fender is... well, Fender.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Feel free to express yours so I can make an informed judgement about how stupid you are.
#4
Fenders produce tones for the cleaner side of blues and low to mid-range gain levels. Marshalls are better for dirty blues and mid to high-gain music. It's the difference between a pickup truck and a muscle car, really.
Quote by Joshua Garcia
my chemical romance are a bunch of homos making love to a mic and you like that cuz your a huge gay wad. You should feel pathetic for being such a gaywad you gay mcr loving gaywad olllol.
#5
Fender came first. Marshall copied Fender.

Fender is known for being a more clean sound (less break-up).

Marshall made amps with more gain for a more dirty sound (more break up.)

The vacuum tube types (valves) inherent to each amp create different characteristics.
#6
Fender's have a pretty wide range of sounds. Tweed Fenders sound completely different from BF Fenders.... tweeds -> fat, dirty, compressed sounding BFs -> clean(er), chimey, bright, slightly scooped.

A good example, listen to Cream's "Crossroads" (Marshall JTM45/100) vs. Mike Bloomfield's "Stop" (Fender twin reverb)
#7
Quote by al112987
Fender's have a pretty wide range of sounds. Tweed Fenders sound completely different from BF Fenders.... tweeds -> fat, dirty, compressed sounding BFs -> clean(er), chimey, bright, slightly scooped.

A good example, listen to Cream's "Crossroads" (Marshall JTM45/100) vs. Mike Bloomfield's "Stop" (Fender twin reverb)


Thous the JTM is based off of the Teed Fender Bassman
Guitars:
Gibson SG Standard with Bigsby
Gibson Custom ES-137
Gibson Custom 54' Les Paul VOS Goldtop
Gretsch G6129T Silver Jet
1968 Harmony Rocket H75


Amps:
Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (modded)
1970 Fender Twin Reverb (blackfaced)

#8
Quote by kracdown
Thous the JTM is based off of the Teed Fender Bassman

It still has a slightly different preamp structure, B+ and output section though, so the two aren't super similar.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Feel free to express yours so I can make an informed judgement about how stupid you are.
#9
mids or lack thereof. when those names are referred to in the general sense you are describing.
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
#10
the question is so generic and yet so complicated at the same time I'm just not sure a short answer is possible - so your best bet is to learn the way most of here learned. Read, read, listen to clips, and then read some more and then play some amps.
#11
Quote by sethp
i always hear some tone or another is "marshall"-style, and another tone or another is "fender"-style.


the first marshall amp (the JTM45) was a copy of a tweed bassman circuit (5F6-A). the only differences in those circuits were the OEM parts and values.

when marshall (a british company) decided to clone a fender amp (an american company) for british production ol' Jim needed to find himself a supplier for parts... just so happens the values for caps and resistors was slightly different than those supplied in america, and also the vacuum tubes were a bit different too.

marshall's only intentional difference was to ditch the bassman 4x10 open cab design in favor of a head/4x12 cab combo...

so really, a closed back 4x12 and OEM parts differences were about the only thing separating a marshall from a fender at that time.

somehow marshall got to be known as 'dirty' amps and fenders are classified as 'clean'. i would not take that to heart, it is a very misleading sentiment.
punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#12
very educative responses
are there typical tones that define one and the other?
maybe some youtube clips in a non-band/mix recording?

otherwise please tell me more about the different characteristics.
from what i read in these forums, it seems like there is a typical "british" timber/tone as opposed to an "american" timber/tone
one is "brighter" and the other "darker"?

is it possible to prefer marshall-style cleans and low-gain over fender-style?
#13
One says marshall on the front and the other says fender, c'mon its not that hard.

Seriously though, the tone stack and overall sound produced by the two are very different.
Gear-Ibanex rg7321 w/dimarzio pups--->Ernie Ball Jr. Vol pedal--->TS9-->Line 6 DL4--->ADA MP-1--->Marshall 9005 poweramp--->Line6 4X12 straight cab w/v30s
#14
one is made by Marshall and one is made by Fender duh
Call me Dom
Quote by Dmaj7
I don't know how to count canadians, the metric system is hard

Quote by gregs1020
well if lbj pokes his head in here and there's no nuts shit's gonna go doooooooowwwwwwwwwn.



{Pedalboard Thread Native: The Muffin Man}
#15
Quote by sethp
very educative responses
are there typical tones that define one and the other?
maybe some youtube clips in a non-band/mix recording?

otherwise please tell me more about the different characteristics.
from what i read in these forums, it seems like there is a typical "british" timber/tone as opposed to an "american" timber/tone
one is "brighter" and the other "darker"?

is it possible to prefer marshall-style cleans and low-gain over fender-style?
I gave two examples but here are youtube links. You can hear the guitar well in both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdwVVI4B3oY (classic Marshall tone)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHhKnc0XZrs (listen to Duane Allman's solo starting at about 0:50, he's playing through a Marshall 50 watt plexi)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdMf-86Evro (classic Fender BF tone)

British typically means more mids, and a 'browner' sound. In some ways it's not a good characterization, Fender tweeds are very much American amps, have a lot of mids and get very dirty themselves. But "American" now has been associated with BF Fenders as being amps that are slightly scooped sounding compared to their Marshall counterparts.

And yes, one can prefer the clean tone of a Marshall. And one can prefer a Fender for overdrive. There is not any sort of rule that says a Fender is better for clean and a Marshall is better for overdrive. There are times when I prefer an overdrive BF Fender to a Marshall, and there are times when I prefer a clean plexi or JCM800 to a twin reverb.
Last edited by al112987 at Apr 27, 2011,
#16
one isn't brighter or darker it's more a matter of having mids or lack thereof. when those names are referred to in the general sense you are describing.

...
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
#19
Quote by Blick71
I thought that was just a given fact of the forum



Listen to Greg?


nah.....Greg is a jerk, just ask him.


that must mean I know nothing......man, i just have more and more reasons to not be here anymore

yes. listen to greg.
Quote by gregs1020
Brett has been saving for a splawn for 4 years
countries have been toppled in the time it's taking, revolutions won got a black pres

yawn


Quote by bubb_tubbs
When he finally gets one it'll probably be televised like the Berlin Wall coming down.
The end of an era
#20
naw, just listening to the regulars in general. Plus at this point adding any real info is just beating a dead horse.

and hell, everyone here is a bit of an ass. it helps weed out the weak.
Gear-Ibanex rg7321 w/dimarzio pups--->Ernie Ball Jr. Vol pedal--->TS9-->Line 6 DL4--->ADA MP-1--->Marshall 9005 poweramp--->Line6 4X12 straight cab w/v30s
#21
Quote by Blick71
and hell, everyone here is a bit of an ass. it helps weed out the weak.

finally someone who gets it
Call me Dom
Quote by Dmaj7
I don't know how to count canadians, the metric system is hard

Quote by gregs1020
well if lbj pokes his head in here and there's no nuts shit's gonna go doooooooowwwwwwwwwn.



{Pedalboard Thread Native: The Muffin Man}
#22
Quote by Blick71
naw, just listening to the regulars in general. Plus at this point adding any real info is just beating a dead horse.

and hell, everyone here is a bit of an ass. it helps weed out the weak.



err....I'm a regular...check my posts
Quote by gregs1020
Brett has been saving for a splawn for 4 years
countries have been toppled in the time it's taking, revolutions won got a black pres

yawn


Quote by bubb_tubbs
When he finally gets one it'll probably be televised like the Berlin Wall coming down.
The end of an era
#23
The JTM45 was originally based on the Bassman but there are some pretty major differences that manifest themselves in tone. Jim wasn't trying to build a clone, he just used the bassman as the starting point.
For starters, the JTM45 has a 12AX7 in V1 instead of the Bassman's 12AY7. That totally changes the gain structure through the entire amp, not one element escapes this change and it has to be compensated for. If you just stick a 12AX7 into a Bassman's V1 it does make it sound more Marshally (I actually really like the sound of a Bassman with a 12AX7) but it doesn't magically become a JTM45. And the opposite is true; a 12AY7 in V1 of a JTM45 will make it more Fendery but it won't suddenly become a Bassman.
To say that the JTM45 is just a copy is like saying that Fender just copied RCA because all he did was adapt the published RCA circuits. We all copy somebody, even if that is just the text book we used at Uni when we learned how to design a circuit. Jim just built what he thought would sell and used what everybody was using at the time as the starting point for his design.

The way I think about Fender vs Marshall sound is this:
The Fender is silky smooth, Marshall has a midrange bite to it.
Gilchrist custom
Yamaha SBG500
Telecasters
Randall RM100 & RM20
Marshall JTM45 clone
Marshall JCM900 4102 (modded)
Marshall 18W clone
Fender 5F1 Champ clone
Atomic Amplifire
Marshall 1960A
Boss GT-100


Cathbard Amplification
My band
#24
Damn it, I know you're a reg. I was just being the usual smartass that I am with that post.
Gear-Ibanex rg7321 w/dimarzio pups--->Ernie Ball Jr. Vol pedal--->TS9-->Line 6 DL4--->ADA MP-1--->Marshall 9005 poweramp--->Line6 4X12 straight cab w/v30s
#25
Kudos to Cath for most helpful post.

I got into an argument with a guy recently who thought the JTM45 was an exact clone of the Bassman.

I explained to him that, yes, the circuit topology was basically identical, but certain component values, including the power supply capacitors, were different.

But the most important difference is that the output section of the JTM45 ran KT66's, as opposed to the 5F6 Bassman which ran 5881's. The load impedance ( size of resistance the tube needs to see for optimum power transfer) on a single KT66 is 2000 ohms. That's identical to an EL34, but it's different from a 5881/6L6, Which means the output transformer had to be different.

Different output section, different output transformer, it all makes for quite a different sound. Stack on top of that the fact that there were some component value changes in the preamp section and you've got nearly got a new (at the time) beast altogether.
Tastes like chicken, if chicken was a candy.
#26
Quote by ConfederateAxe
Kudos to Cath for most helpful post.

I got into an argument with a guy recently who thought the JTM45 was an exact clone of the Bassman.

I explained to him that, yes, the circuit topology was basically identical, but certain component values, including the power supply capacitors, were different.

But the most important difference is that the output section of the JTM45 ran KT66's, as opposed to the 5F6 Bassman which ran 5881's. The load impedance ( size of resistance the tube needs to see for optimum power transfer) on a single KT66 is 2000 ohms. That's identical to an EL34, but it's different from a 5881/6L6, Which means the output transformer had to be different.

Different output section, different output transformer, it all makes for quite a different sound. Stack on top of that the fact that there were some component value changes in the preamp section and you've got nearly got a new (at the time) beast altogether.


i think part of it was that they didn't use the correct transformer?

also...I dunno how a kt66 could have that much of a load difference from a 6l6..they are drop in replacements aren't they?
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#27
Min you are correct (and I was mistaken) in terms of being able to use them in the same OT, but another aspect I failed to address is the fact that the KT66 heaters draw significantly more current than 6L6's. Ideally it's best to have a Power transformer rated for this. I have no idea what JTM45 specs were.

EL34 push-pull load impedance is still closer to the KT66 than a 6L6.
Tastes like chicken, if chicken was a candy.
#28
Quote by ConfederateAxe
Min you are correct (and I was mistaken) in terms of being able to use them in the same OT, but another aspect I failed to address is the fact that the KT66 heaters draw significantly more current than 6L6's. Ideally it's best to have a Power transformer rated for this. I have no idea what JTM45 specs were.

EL34 push-pull load impedance is still closer to the KT66 than a 6L6.


the last time I read it...I was under the impression that either the bassman or the jtm was a huge mismatch and that contributed to the sound.

like marshall used an el34 transformer and ran kt66s. or something.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#29
i doubt the TS is looking for such an indepth "how to build" a fender or marshall. or what parts between them are slightly different. if they were, i wouldn't think the OP would be so vague

it seems to me like he's speaking about the "general" way amps are considered "british or american".

ie, scooped or middy etc.

great posts. i gave a general, concise description because that's how the TS proposed the OP.

i think you guys are reading into it too much.

do you think a self admitted "tone tard" is going to understand ohms, tube types and positions?

GB&C is the forum under GG&A. everyone seems to be forgetting that these days, all due respect to the soldering iron warriors out there.

much love techies, i just think you are overthinking this one.

it's like explaining the inner workings of an atom bomb to someone who asked how we won WWII.

edit: i can be a bit of a sarcastic ass, i do hope is scares away the weak, or at least teaches them to use the focking searchbar...
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
Last edited by gregs1020 at Apr 27, 2011,
#30
Quote by gregs1020
i doubt the TS is looking for such an indepth "how to build" a fender or marshall. or what parts between them are slightly different. if they were, i wouldn't think the OP would be so vague


god! how do you guys from the pit wander in here?

punk isn't dead, it's always smelled that way.

"A perfection of means, and confusion of aims, seems to be our main problem."
-ae
#31
Quote by gregs1020
i doubt the TS is looking for such an indepth "how to build" a fender or marshall. or what parts between them are slightly different. if they were, i wouldn't think the OP would be so vague

it seems to me like he's speaking about the "general" way amps are considered "british or american".

ie, scooped or middy etc.

great posts. i gave a general, concise description because that's how the TS proposed the OP.

i think you guys are reading into it too much.

do you think a self admitted "tone tard" is going to understand ohms, tube types and positions?

GB&C is the forum under GG&A. everyone seems to be forgetting that these days, all due respect to the soldering iron warriors out there.

much love techies, i just think you are overthinking this one.

it's like explaining the inner workings of an atom bomb to someone who asked how we won WWII.

edit: i can be a bit of a sarcastic ass, i do hope is scares away the weak, or at least teaches them to use the focking searchbar...


highways.
Prs se Holcomb is the answer
#32
The germans attacked russia.
Gear-Ibanex rg7321 w/dimarzio pups--->Ernie Ball Jr. Vol pedal--->TS9-->Line 6 DL4--->ADA MP-1--->Marshall 9005 poweramp--->Line6 4X12 straight cab w/v30s
#33
^ they still would have won if Hitler wasn't batshit crazy and trying to micromanage his generals.

All they had to do was take Moscow.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

Feel free to express yours so I can make an informed judgement about how stupid you are.
#34
Quote by bubb_tubbs
Marshall is glassier and has a prominent midrange.

Fender is... well, Fender.

What the hell does glassy even mean?
#35
Greg really hit what I consider to be the nail on the head.


'Generally' speaking this is the foundation. After this period, everything got thrown out the window and many more amp manufacturers came into the mix.

Marshall = British rock tones. Mids. EL34 tubes. Think 70's and 80's. British invasion and LA Hair metal.

Fender = American cleaner tones. Scooped. 6L6s. Think surf rock (Beach Boys), lots of blues, country, etc


Quote by Bostonrocks
err....I'm a regular...check my posts


*Check posts questions 'regular' status *
#36
Quote by 311ZOSOVHJH
Greg really hit what I consider to be the nail on the head.


'Generally' speaking this is the foundation. After this period, everything got thrown out the window and many more amp manufacturers came into the mix.

Marshall = British rock tones. Mids. EL34 tubes. Think 70's and 80's. British invasion and LA Hair metal.

Fender = American cleaner tones. Scooped. 6L6s. Think surf rock (Beach Boys), lots of blues, country, etc




+1

Don't get me wrong, all those technical explanations make a difference.

But if you're asking what the difference in sound between marshalls and fenders is...

you probably don't need to go into that much depth. If you're not careful you'll miss the wood for the trees.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
#37
Quote by bubb_tubbs
^ they still would have won if Hitler wasn't batshit crazy and trying to micromanage his generals.

All they had to do was take Moscow.


Yeah, most likely. It didn't help that Japan attacked the US either. If they hadn't done that, Europe would collectively be germany
Gear-Ibanex rg7321 w/dimarzio pups--->Ernie Ball Jr. Vol pedal--->TS9-->Line 6 DL4--->ADA MP-1--->Marshall 9005 poweramp--->Line6 4X12 straight cab w/v30s
#38
Quote by Blick71
Yeah, most likely. It didn't help that Japan attacked the US either. If they hadn't done that, Europe would collectively be germany

well if napoleon didn't go crazy it would have been france to begin with.

and france is laaaaaaaame.
I wondered why the frisbee was getting bigger, then it hit me.
Last edited by gregs1020 at Apr 27, 2011,
#39
^^ gtfo

Continental Western Europe, maybe. Operation Sealion had been postponed indefinitely long before the US entered the war. The Soviet Union had more or less stopped the Nazi advance before the US entered the war. And the british and commonwealth forces in North Africa had halted Rommel before the US entered the North African theatre.

Don't get me wrong- we wouldn't have won without US help. But it's unlikely we'd have lost either, it'd likely have been a stalemate.

^ er... what? Don't understand what you mean there, greg.
I'm an idiot and I accidentally clicked the "Remove all subscriptions" button. If it seems like I'm ignoring you, I'm not, I'm just no longer subscribed to the thread. If you quote me or do the @user thing at me, hopefully it'll notify me through my notifications and I'll get back to you.
Quote by K33nbl4d3
I'll have to put the Classic T models on my to-try list. Shame the finish options there are Anachronism Gold, Nuclear Waste and Aged Clown, because in principle the plaintop is right up my alley.

Quote by K33nbl4d3
Presumably because the CCF (Combined Corksniffing Forces) of MLP and Gibson forums would rise up against them, plunging the land into war.

Quote by T00DEEPBLUE
Et tu, br00tz?
Page 1 of 2