#1
Can non-diatonic chords be classified as supertonic, mediant, sub dominant, dominant, sub mediant, and leading? I'm assuming that they can.
So for example in the key of C in a I IV I progression there are the notes C E G and F A C.
The A resolves down a major 2nd to G, and the F resolves down a minor 2nd to E. Does a non diatonic chord have to use the F and the A in the chord for it to be sub dominant? So for instance could a D# diminished chord be a sub dominant chord in the key of C?
#2
I believe if you use a D# dimished chord in the key of C you're not longer diatonic. I'll wait for someone to clear that up, but i'm fairly sure of that. You could probably make it work, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the sub dominant chord.

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#3
Sub dominance, dominance, etc are functions really. So, diatonically a D# diminished chord means nothing in C. In reality it's a common tone diminished, if it has the 7th anyway. A D# chord is a borrowed chord, though I guess it could serve a sub dominant function if you contexually supported that. Non diatonically, they can be SECONDARY FUNCTIONS like the secondary dominant and secondary leading tone chords, or V/V and vii dim/V. Stretching the imagination you could also sort of have a secondary sub dominant to create a super plagal sound.

But to go with the first part, the notes F and A do imply sub dominance if used correctly. A ii can also serve as a diatonic sub dominant chord.
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Last edited by Artemis Entreri at Apr 26, 2011,
#4
yes.
pretty much, any chord that leads to the tonic is dominant class (V and vii0, and substitutions for them that come out of the diminished cycle), any chord that leads to a dominant would be pre dominant class (so IV, ii, augmented sixth chords, neopolitan chords and secondary dominant and leading tone chords), the chord that leads to the pre dominant would be mediant class and any chord that leads to a mediant class chord can be considered a submediant class chord. (there also refered to by number sometimes--so a dominant class chord would be first classification, pre dominant would be second classification etc.).

I believe if you use a D# dimished chord in the key of C you're not longer diatonic. I'll wait for someone to clear that up, but i'm fairly sure of that. You could probably make it work, but i'm pretty sure it wouldn't be the sub dominant chord.


you could treat it as a secondary leading tone to E minor or, if you want to call it D7b9 or F# diminished it could be treated at a pre dominant chord--as it would be the secondary leading tone or dominant of the V chord--if you treat it as a C diminished it can lead (as a secondary leading tone chord--pre dominant class) to a Db7 (dominant class--as its a tritone sub for G7). and while your absolutely correct that you are no longer diatonic, your still in C. being in the key of something just means that a certain pitch is functioning as your tonal center--it does not preclude you from using certain notes or chords (as all 12 tones can function in the context of any key).
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Last edited by tehREALcaptain at Apr 27, 2011,
#5
Forget all about the unnecessary filler information about supertonics and mediants and etc.

All essential harmony in functional harmony, even altered harmony, can be broken down into three categories: tonic, subdominant, and dominant.

Tonic is any major/minor harmony in the moment that is considered the center or the point of focus. Subdominant is any non-tonic harmony that points to the dominant. And the dominant is any harmony that contains the necessary tritone and/or P5/P4 root motion that points to the tonic.

If you really think about what I just said, it will answer your question and much more.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#6
^simple, specific, spot on. Nice post

Quote by WalrusNutFart
Can non-diatonic chords be classified as supertonic, mediant, sub dominant, dominant, sub mediant, and leading? I'm assuming that they can.
So for example in the key of C in a I IV I progression there are the notes C E G and F A C.
The A resolves down a major 2nd to G, and the F resolves down a minor 2nd to E. Does a non diatonic chord have to use the F and the A in the chord for it to be sub dominant? So for instance could a D# diminished chord be a sub dominant chord in the key of C?
(Well that D♯dim could also be interpreted as an inverted F7 (F A C E♭ so it can serve a subdominant function for sure.)

It appears sir, you have just grasped the underlying concept of "common tone chord substitution".

Chord substitution is when you substitute one chord in place of another while retaining the same functional harmonic structure of a specific "chord progression".

Common tone chord substitution operates on the principle that the two chords (the substitute chord and the original chord) have common tones.

I like your consideration of the voiceleading too which shows you're not just looking for common tones but considering which will be effective for retaining harmonic function.

All you really needed was the pointer to cut your scope back a bit to three basic chord functions, as was noted in the post above, and you're home free.

Your question was well put and it shows you're a smart dude, keep at it .
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Apr 27, 2011,
#7
Quote by 20Tigers

(Well that D♯dim could also be interpreted as an inverted F7 (F A C E♭ so it can serve a subdominant function for sure.)

I have to disagree here. Any dominant 7th chord can not serve as a subdominant function in common practice harmony. It is important to note that the diminished chord is an inversion of a dom7th chord with a b9 in jazz terms, but a nonchord tone that needs to be resolved down in classical harmony.

In the key of C, an "F7" would most likely be spelled as F A D# (or its 4-part versions) as an augmented 6th chord that functions dominantly to tonicize E minor (F A D# -> E G E). It could also function as a point of modulation, but in any case, its function will never be subdominant in traditional harmony.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 27, 2011,
#8
There's 90 years of blues that turn the tonic, subdominant, and dominant into dominant seventh chords. You're not going to tell me that those dominant seventh chords are all serving a dominant function are you?

And what about a functioning secondary dominant - sure it serves as a dominant to the dominant but if we follow the logic of that function that means that it points to the dominant - but isn't that the same way you described the function of the subdominant? So couldn't the secondary dominant be described as serving the function of the sub dominant in something like I II7 V7?

You refer to "common practice harmony" "classical harmony" and "traditional harmony" which is all well and good. We wouldn't be anywhere without it. But why can't our understanding and interpretations continue to grow and expand to encompass ideas prevalent in Jazz, Blues, Rock, and Pop.

I myself don't study classical music. I listen to some classical music (mostly Beethoven I love his symphonies and a couple of others) and I can even play some easy pieces (rather poorly).

Though I am quite happy to plunder ideas from the rich resources of the traditional teachings where I can, but I am always looking to apply it to the music I love which includes Blues, Folk, Rock, Pop, etc.

That is where I am coming from, and while I do not disagree with what you are saying - I believe you when you say that a dominant seventh can not serve a subdominant function "in traditional harmony of the common practice era" I am coming from a different place (Blues/Rock mostly) and where I am coming from - a dominant seventh can serve any function.

I tend to assume (and not always correctly) that other's are looking at it from the same place I am and it is important that such differences in approach are pointed out even just to provide a more well rounded discussion.

Peace.

EDIT: On the topic of secondary dominants -we could say that the II7 "tonicizes" the dominant V7 which in turn tonicizes the tonic I. So we are never leaving key but we have had a brief tonicization of the dominant chord (is that a word? tonicization? I'm gonna go with it). So I can see how it could still be seen as serving a "dominant" function...but then wouldn't that mean the V7, having been tonicized then served the function of the tonic...but then that V7 still also functions as THE dominant...the original point still remains - the II7 points to the dominant which is the function of the subdominant...is it all just semantics???

On a slightly different note and of no consequence at all the description I always like best for the function of sub dominant and dominant is not so much that the sub dominant points to the dominant as much as it pulls away from the tonic:
The tonic is home
The subdominant function is to pull away from the tonic
The dominant leads us back to the tonic.
So it's like a complete journey you start at home you go away then coming back. Though I've heard it many times both ways, again - semantics. They're both the same thing when it comes down to it.
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Apr 27, 2011,
#9
Quote by 20Tigers
There's 90 years of blues that turn the tonic, subdominant, and dominant into dominant seventh chords. You're not going to tell me that those dominant seventh chords are all serving a dominant function are you?
That's why I specifically said in the context of traditional functional harmony. In the basic blues format, I don't think even V7 is a dominant functioning 7th chord. The tritones here are used for color rather than for resolution. Of course, when you add other chords to fill the I-IV-V sectional points, then the V7 may take on a dominant function. But if TS is asking about specific voiceleading, he's most likely posing the question from a traditional harmony point of vew.

And what about a functioning secondary dominant - sure it serves as a dominant to the dominant but if we follow the logic of that function that means that it points to the dominant - but isn't that the same way you described the function of the subdominant? So couldn't the secondary dominant be described as serving the function of the sub dominant in something like I II7 V7?
The difference between subdominants and dominants is that the subdominants are passive and don't carry the tritone. Secondary dominants don't necessarily lead to the dominant. V7/V (what you describe as II7) is only one of the secondary dominants. There are also augmented 6ths of I, ii, iii, IV, V, vi, V7 of ii, iii, IV, vi, dim7/ of these chords, etc. But when these resolve to the target harmony, that harmony becomes tonicized. Of course, the tonicized harmony may take on a dual function of being tonic/subdominant to the next harmony, or tonic/dominant to the next harmony, but if we want to be consistent, it would be misleading to suggest that any chord containing the tritone may be a subdominant in common practice harmony.

You refer to "common practice harmony" "classical harmony" and "traditional harmony" which is all well and good. We wouldn't be anywhere without it. But why can't our understanding and interpretations continue to grow and expand to encompass ideas prevalent in Jazz, Blues, Rock, and Pop.
It surely can, but TS is most likely asking from a common practice harmony point of view. No other musical styles really refer to mediants, supertonics, etc.

EDIT: On the topic of secondary dominants -we could say that the II7 "tonicizes" the dominant V7 which in turn tonicizes the tonic I. So we are never leaving key but we have had a brief tonicization of the dominant chord (is that a word? tonicization? I'm gonna go with it). So I can see how it could still be seen as serving a "dominant" function...but then wouldn't that mean the V7, having been tonicized then served the function of the tonic...but then that V7 still also functions as THE dominant...the original point still remains - the II7 points to the dominant which is the function of the subdominant...is it all just semantics???
As I said earlier, tonicized chords can take on dual functionality of being a subdominant or dominant themselves, so that should clear up why you can have a DOMINANT of the dominant. It is misleading to view the dominant of V7 as II7. Translate that literally into chord symbols: dominant of the dominant = V7 of V = V7/V. II7 would make more sense in context of modal harmony, in which, like the blues, dominants may not have dominant functions.

If you're suggesting that this is all semantics, why even have a distinction between dominant and subdominant at all? And think about trying to distinguish between dominant and subdominant from a teaching point of view. If there are so many possible exceptions, how can we get a clear concept of the differences?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 27, 2011,
#10
It surely can, but TS is most likely asking from a common practice harmony point of view. No other musical styles really refer to mediants, supertonics, etc.


harmony exists without idiom. jazz, blues, pop, rock all use mediants and supertonics--functional harmony extends outside the common practice period. also, the V7 chord in a blues most certiainly does have a dominant function (ESPECIALLY when it's part of a turnaround) --as it resolves to the I chord (and is sometimes prepared by a ii chord--or if it occurs in bars 11 and 12 it can be part of a iii vi ii V turnaround, which is pretty much the definition of a normal progression).
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#11
Quote by tehREALcaptain
harmony exists without idiom. jazz, blues, pop, rock all use mediants and supertonics--functional harmony extends outside the common practice period. also, the V7 chord in a blues most certiainly does have a dominant function (ESPECIALLY when it's part of a turnaround) --as it resolves to the I chord (and is sometimes prepared by a ii chord--or if it occurs in bars 11 and 12 it can be part of a iii vi ii V turnaround, which is pretty much the definition of a normal progression).

Yes, harmony exists without idiom, but our analysis of it does not. Pop/jazz may USE mediants and supertonics in physical reality, but these terms that are coined to describe these degree scales are almost exclusive to traditional harmony. I already addressed the dynamic role of V7 in blues.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 27, 2011,
#13
I won't get into this debate, but I'll answer the question:

Yes and no, TS. Technically the terms dominant, subdominant, supertonic, leading tone/subtonic, etc. all refer to scale degrees. However, speaking in terms of functional harmony, you can use some of these terms to just describe function.

The most notable of these would be the dominant. When speaking in terms of the dominant-tonic relationship, it's extremely common to associate a "pull" to the tonic as a "dominant function," even if the chord isn't rooted on the dominant. Usually, these chords are common-tone substitutions (like the tritone sub or the viio).

I can't really think of many examples that aren't substitutions. For example, how about a subV7/V? Would you call it a supertonic or a subdominant? If it was a standard V/V, you could call it an altered supertonic, but for the subV7/V it's hard to associate it with either a supertonic or subdominant specifically, so I'd just call it a PREdominant because that's more specific to function rather than scale degree.
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Last edited by food1010 at Apr 27, 2011,
#14
Only just noticed - D♯ A F is not a diminished triad. It is in fact an inverted F7. A D♯ diminished triad would be D♯ A F♯.

Well when I analyze music I often look at voice leading and the way chords flow into each other. Please note that I am aware that a secondary dominant doesn't necessarily lead into the dominant - and you're right V7/V would have been a more apt description I was being lazy. But just because I consider voiceleading doesn't mean I'm adhering exclusively to harmonic principles of the common practice era so you can not assume the TS is coming from that position, neither can I assume he is coming from where I am - which is why it's great to get different points of view.

On the matter of the secondary dominant...

So the V7/V serves a dominant function tonicizing the V (which may actually be a V7). This serves a dual function of being the dominant to the true tonic and being the tonic to the secondary dominant that preceded it.

So why then can't the V7/V also serve a dual function as a subdominant to the true tonic by moving away from the tonal centre and as a dominant to the dominant pulling toward the dominant which then leads back to the true tonic?

After all you were the one that described the function of the subdominant to point toward the dominant.

You say it has to do with the inclusion of the tritone. So my question now is can a secondary dominant exist without a tritone? I always thought it could.

You also mention that a tritone can be used for colour and not necessarily be serving a functional harmonic purpose. This seems to be quite agreeable with my initial statement that the F7 can serve a subdominant function in the key of C.

In fact if you look at the TS's question he's identified (through his voiceleading) that the F and A are the ones providing the harmonic function while the D♯ is, we could infer, for colour.

As to the idea certain terms, ideas, or devices are only applicable to a particular body of music.

As music evolves it can draw on a large array of cultures and influences and combine diverse styles. So it stands to reason that music theory should follow suit.
Quote by Xaoixi
but these terms that are coined to describe these degree scales are almost exclusive to traditional harmony.
this just doesn't wash with me.

Terms that were coined to describe musical devices during a specific era are exclusive to the analysis of music of that era ONLY when the use of those devices are exclusive to that era.

Functional harmony is not exclusive to the common practice era and so the use of those terms are not exclusive. There may be strict rules of analysis regarding specific kinds of music and the use of specific terms, but in the wider sense these terms can often evolve to keep up with the music it is describing.

Edit:corrected typo
Si
Last edited by 20Tigers at Apr 28, 2011,
#15
Quote by 20Tigers

So the V7/V serves a dominant function tonicizing the V (which may actually be a V7). This serves a dual function of being the dominant to the true tonic and being the tonic to the secondary dominant that preceded it.

So why then can't the V7/V also serve a dual function as a subdominant to the true tonic by moving away from the tonal centre and as a dominant to the dominant pulling toward the dominant which then leads back to the true tonic?
Because it would be inconsistent with what's being asserted. To make a clear distinction between subdominant and dominant, the tritone is the essential difference. Consider every dominant function harmony that isn't V7/V. All of those would be considered dominants. So it stands to reason and consistency that V7/V should be considered as dominant (and only dominant) as well. I understand why you think V7/V can be considered a subdominant, but I think with this precedent you'd have to follow through with many more exceptions, which leads to confusion.

After all you were the one that described the function of the subdominant to point toward the dominant.


You say it has to do with the inclusion of the tritone. So my question now is can a secondary dominant exist without a tritone? I always thought it could.I should have specified that the subdominant is any non-dominant functioning harmony that leads to a dominant. Secondary dominants can exist without the tritone based on diatonicism and root motion, but it is essentially omitting the physical 7th. Our mind fills the gap.

You also mention that a tritone can be used for colour and not necessarily be serving a functional harmonic purpose. This seems to be quite agreeable with my initial statement that the F7 can serve a subtonic function in the key of C.
You said it was a subdominant...

Functional harmony is not exclusive to the common practice era and so the use of those terms are not exclusive. There may be strict rules of analysis regarding specific kinds of music and the use of specific terms, but in the wider sense these terms can often evolve to keep up with the music it is describing.

Again, I'm not saying that the terms of medians/etc are not applicable to jazz/pop harmony. I'm just saying they are rarely ASSOCIATED with the modern descriptions. Just as if someone were to pose a question asking about Cmaj7/G instead of C65 (figured bass), we can assume that he is asking from a jazz standpoint instead of a classical one, even though both describe a 4 part C major chord in 2nd inversion. If he were to put that as inversion of [0,3,6,7], we can assume he's talking from a serial point of view.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#16
I did say subdominant that last part when I typed subtonic was a typo. It's been fixed.

I didn't know they were rarely associated with modern descriptions. I've just always used them. Every book I've seen discussing theory for the modern musician has used the terms as well as the slash chord notation you describe as consistent with a Jazz interpretation. I understand your analogies to figured bass and serialism. I understand figured bass but rarely use it, as for serialism I find it a joke and in my limited exposure to it have not seen anything I want to learn from it.

While I'm not convinced our mind "fills the gap" in regard to the 7th, I fully agree that the root movement and diatonicism is sufficient to fulfill the dominant function.

In the end though we can agree that the TS would do well to look now at functional harmony and I would suggest diatonic chord substitution as a start then branch out into other kinds of common tone chord substitution.
Si
#17
Quote by WalrusNutFart
Can non-diatonic chords be classified as supertonic, mediant, sub dominant, dominant, sub mediant, and leading? I'm assuming that they can.
So for example in the key of C in a I IV I progression there are the notes C E G and F A C.
The A resolves down a major 2nd to G, and the F resolves down a minor 2nd to E. Does a non diatonic chord have to use the F and the A in the chord for it to be sub dominant? So for instance could a D# diminished chord be a sub dominant chord in the key of C?

Music resolves only in half steps.
So the F to E is right.
For the rest I can't answer your question.
#19
I'll admit he probably got that little tidbit from me, the last time I tried explaining tendency tones to him. Of course, he's taken it completely out of context now, but alas... Every time I see someone coming in and correcting him I get the image of a guy that walks behind an elephant with a shovel and just picks up the shit as it drops.
#20
Quote by 20Tigers

I didn't know they were rarely associated with modern descriptions. I've just always used them. Every book I've seen discussing theory for the modern musician has used the terms as well as the slash chord notation you describe as consistent with a Jazz interpretation. I understand your analogies to figured bass and serialism. I understand figured bass but rarely use it, as for serialism I find it a joke and in my limited exposure to it have not seen anything I want to learn from it.
Figured bass is actually extremely useful for voice leading purposes, much more so than slash chord symbols. And I'm sorry you think serialism is a joke. On the surface it may seem like a lot of unnecessary and convoluted thinking (and it can be at times). But there are some extremely useful and enlightening techniques and approaches that you can take away from it in terms of how to better organize the musical ideas and objects that you create. It's done a lot for me as a composer, even though I don't really want to write 12 tone serial music. If you are interested at all, I'd be happy to talk to you about it sometimes.

While I'm not convinced our mind "fills the gap" in regard to the 7th, I fully agree that the root movement and diatonicism is sufficient to fulfill the dominant function.
I think it's a hidden implication. Just as you can omit the 5th in many cases, you can omit the 7th, but it is "theoretically there".

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#21
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
I'll admit he probably got that little tidbit from me, the last time I tried explaining tendency tones to him. Of course, he's taken it completely out of context now, but alas... Every time I see someone coming in and correcting him I get the image of a guy that walks behind an elephant with a shovel and just picks up the shit as it drops.

How does it work then?
#22
Quote by Xiaoxi
Figured bass is actually extremely useful for voice leading purposes, much more so than slash chord symbols. And I'm sorry you think serialism is a joke. On the surface it may seem like a lot of unnecessary and convoluted thinking (and it can be at times). But there are some extremely useful and enlightening techniques and approaches that you can take away from it in terms of how to better organize the musical ideas and objects that you create. It's done a lot for me as a composer, even though I don't really want to write 12 tone serial music. If you are interested at all, I'd be happy to talk to you about it sometimes.
I think it's a hidden implication. Just as you can omit the 5th in many cases, you can omit the 7th, but it is "theoretically there".


Personally I would be interested in a link. I know next to nothing about serial music and also find it completely worthless and pretentious. But I am interested in reading about it if you consider it valuable.

EDIT: Unless you read it in a book and don't know of a good link. I just ask because there may be some that are overcomplicated and intimidating to someone who isn't familiar with it.
Last edited by Sóknardalr at Apr 29, 2011,
#24
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#25
Quote by Sóknardalr
Personally I would be interested in a link. I know next to nothing about serial music and also find it completely worthless and pretentious. But I am interested in reading about it if you consider it valuable.

EDIT: Unless you read it in a book and don't know of a good link. I just ask because there may be some that are overcomplicated and intimidating to someone who isn't familiar with it.

I'm learning from Joseph Straus' Introduction to Post Tonal Theory. Some of it is easy to understand, some of it is very abstract. It's a small book though.

But I think if you are going to learn this kind of thing at all, you have to kind of remove all judgments and notions on what you are familiar with in both principles and aesthetics. 12 tone serialism is vastly different in both respects from the music that you're probably used to. But ultimately you don't have to "like" it, but at least take away what you can do with the knowledge.

And most importantly, it's good to talk to someone who can put this info in context. Just trying to learn the pure numbers is going to be very dehumanizing musically.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#26
Quote by Xiaoxi
I'm learning from Joseph Straus' Introduction to Post Tonal Theory. Some of it is easy to understand, some of it is very abstract. It's a small book though.

But I think if you are going to learn this kind of thing at all, you have to kind of remove all judgments and notions on what you are familiar with in both principles and aesthetics. 12 tone serialism is vastly different in both respects from the music that you're probably used to. But ultimately you don't have to "like" it, but at least take away what you can do with the knowledge.

And most importantly, it's good to talk to someone who can put this info in context. Just trying to learn the pure numbers is going to be very dehumanizing musically.


Is this serial music? Because it's something I genuinely enjoy (I can't stand most of Schoenberg's work though).
#27
Quote by Sóknardalr
Is this serial music? Because it's something I genuinely enjoy (I can't stand most of Schoenberg's work though).

It may be, but I'd have to look at the score to confirm. But Stockhausen eventually moved on to even more avante garde concepts that use other ways to organize or focus the music.

Serial music takes on many different forms and aesthetics, and it can sound very different from Schoenberg's. Schoenberg's Perrot Lunaire is very good though. You should check it out if you haven't already. His string quartets as well.

Some other 12 tone serial works you might want to consider:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiELHgX-AIE[/url"]Stravinsky's Agon
Berg's violin concerto

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#28
It may be, but I'd have to look at the score to confirm. But Stockhausen eventually moved on to even more avante garde concepts that use other ways to organize or focus the music.

Serial music takes on many different forms and aesthetics, and it can sound very different from Schoenberg's. Schoenberg's Perrot Lunaire is very good though. You should check it out if you haven't already. His string quartets as well.

Some other 12 tone serial works you might want to consider:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BiELHgX-AIE[/url"]Stravinsky's Agon
Berg's violin concerto

I'm surprised, Pierrot Lunaire actually is very good (I've listened to the first three parts so far). I don't like opera at all but it's kind of appropriate here. Thanks for the suggestion. Just like when I discovered John Cage's prepared piano sonatas I have more respect for Schoenberg now. I'll be sure to check out those two other works you linked and maybe read up on serialism once my exams are over.
#29
^Pierrot Lunaire isn't exactly an opera. It's more like a collection of art songs and chamber music. There's no dramatic staging or large orchestral setting.

And Schoenberg's earliest music is actually tonal, stretching the limits of late romanticism. I think you'll find his 1st string quartet very different from what he's known for. You should absolutely have respect for Schoenberg! He was an extremely smart and refined composer, even if you don't agree with his music.

And I'll be happy to talk about set theory with you when you're ready.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#30
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^Pierrot Lunaire isn't exactly an opera. It's more like a collection of art songs and chamber music. There's no dramatic staging or large orchestral setting

And Schoenberg's earliest music is actually tonal, stretching the limits of late romanticism. I think you'll find his 1st string quartet very different from what he's known for. You should absolutely have respect for Schoenberg! He was an extremely smart and refined composer, even if you don't agree with his music.

And I'll be happy to talk about set theory with you when you're ready.


I wasn't saying it was an opera specifically just that I dislike operatic singing in general.

Thanks for suggesting the Berg violin concerto, I am absolutely loving it (I am on part 2 of that video series) and I will listen to the Stravinsky piece after that (though I already do enjoy and respect him).

I'm not sure I would want to inconvenience you though, as it seems quite abstract.
#31
^Oh yea, that kind of singing that Schoenberg developed is called sprechtstemme (sing-speech). Schoenberg notates the approximate pitch that a singer should follow to but does so in a not-quite-singing manner.

And it wouldn't be inconvenient at all. It'll be good for me to, to really internalize what I've been studying this semester.

PS: the 12 tone row that Berg creates for the violin concerto is 4 discrete major and minor triads. Berg also quotes a Bach choral towards the end and reharmonizes the leading line to show how much serial potential Bach had. So you can imagine how it's possible to play around with "tonal" music using serial techniques!

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at Apr 29, 2011,
#33
Sure thing! I'll be done with finals next week and have plenty of time then.


...modes and scales are still useless.


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