#1
i'd like to get started on some modal jazz. i realize modality is inferior to tonality (if im using that term correctly which i dont think i am) and im not trying to learn modes and apply them to rock and i don't think modes are the holy grail of theory and basically in this rant im trying to make the case that i'm not an idiot. but i'd like to get to understand modal jazz tunes better, that's it that's all. i realize analyzing "kind of blue" by miles davis to the best of my abilities would be a good start, i was wondering if any1 else with experience in this area had any other tips to give me or any advice on getting started? i don't think i'll be writing my own modal tune in the near future or maybe ever but it sounds like fun to at least UNDERSTAND modal tunes. thanks for replies
#2
Quote by TMVATDI
i realize modality is inferior to tonality





I understand how you'd get there coming here often, but no.... just no.

Quote by TMVATDI

i realize analyzing "kind of blue" by miles davis to the best of my abilities would be a good start, i was wondering if any1 else with experience in this area had any other tips to give me or any advice on getting started?

Basically......Learn some tunes. Put 2 and 2 together

By learn tunes I mean be able to play the melody by memory as well as the chords.
transcribing and learning to play some solos for those tunes would be very insightful as well.

Get to know them inside and out. Play the shit out of them.


Quote by TMVATDI

it sounds like fun to at least UNDERSTAND modal tunes


yup.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 28, 2011,
#3
Quote by TMVATDI
i'd like to get started on some modal jazz. i realize modality is inferior to tonality (if im using that term correctly which i dont think i am) and im not trying to learn modes and apply them to rock and i don't think modes are the holy grail of theory and basically in this rant im trying to make the case that i'm not an idiot. but i'd like to get to understand modal jazz tunes better, that's it that's all. i realize analyzing "kind of blue" by miles davis to the best of my abilities would be a good start, i was wondering if any1 else with experience in this area had any other tips to give me or any advice on getting started? i don't think i'll be writing my own modal tune in the near future or maybe ever but it sounds like fun to at least UNDERSTAND modal tunes. thanks for replies


That's a good idea. Be sure to check out Herbie Hancock's album Maiden Voyage as well.
#5
you could start with researching the "dorian" and "mixolydian" modal scales.

along with the major scale these 3 scales can be used over the 3 main types of 7th chords.
major scale for the major7th chordd
dorian for the minor 7th chord
and mixolydian scale for the dominant 7th chord.

so if you have a chord progession ... let's say


|Am7|B7|Emaj7|E7||Am7|B7|Emaj7|Emaj7|

a good choice of scales would be A dorian mode for the Am7
B mixolydian for the B7
E Mixolydian for the E7
and E major for the Emaj7
lots of moving around.
Its best to start with One octave shapes
#6
modal tunes are what they are--its pretty basic.
If you take so what, you'll find theres a vamp in D dorian, which then moves up a half step to Eb dorian. You'll notice the piano player (I think bill evans on that tune), isn't just playing D minor and Eb chords and the bass player doesn't just drone, but is sort of floating in the D dorian mode--using chords from the key of no sharps or flats that do not suggest C major. i doubt he sticks with just these chords, but they are the "correct" chords for modal playing in D minor: D dorian, E minor, G major (NOT G7)--from these chords you can branch out, using passing chords and melodic sensibility. modal jazz doesn't really stay one hundread percent true to the mode, but it does keep the modal feel (which is really what counts). ALso on that album, All Blues, freddie freeloader and Blue in Green aren't really modal. The first two are blueses (AWESOME blueses), and blue in green is more of an impressionistic post-tonal tune (you'd want to use chord/scales to improvise over it--which use modal names and have similar sounds but are not modes). Flamenco Sketches is a modal tune, miles basically wrote out a bunch of chord symbols, and the improvisers just played the corresponding modes, cueing the band as to when to change tonality--and when they went through all the chord symbols there solo was over.
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
Last edited by tehREALcaptain at Apr 28, 2011,
#7
Well, to answer your answer your question, modes are actually the note of the major scale which you treat like the root note.
Say I'm playing Dorian in the key of C, that's D as tonal center.
Obviously what your not going to do is playing a chord progression like C-G7-C.
More likely would be Dm-Eminadd9.
I put the add9 in the chord so it sort of resolves back into Dm minor because of the F# in the Eminadd9 and the F in the D minor.
Also playing short progressions maximum containing 3 or in special cases even 4 chords.
Also drones would be a good idea.
Where you drone the D in every chord of the progression.
Like Dmin-D/Eminadd9.
Since I don't want to **** your theory up wait before believing this untill someone like Sean or Zen approve this.
Last edited by liampje at Apr 28, 2011,
#8
Quote by liampje
Well, to answer your answer your question, modes are actually the note of the major scale which you treat like the root note.
Say I'm playing Dorian in the key of C, that's D minor.
Obviously what your not going to do is playing a chord progression like C-G7-C.
More likely would be Dm-Eminadd9.
I put the add9 in the chord so it sort of resolves back into Dm minor because of the F# in the Eminadd9 and the F in the D minor.
Also playing short progressions maximum containing 3 or in special cases even 4 chords.
Also drones would be a good idea.
Where you drone the D in every chord of the progression.
Like Dmin-D/Eminadd9.
Since I don't want to **** your theory up wait before believing this untill someone like Sean or Zen approve this.


Huh?
#10
The seminal "modal jazz" album is Kind of Blue by Miles Davis.

You can listen to the tunes -- "So What" is a great example of how Miles and Gil Evans approached the Dorian mode in a modern context.

Google "So What Chord" and get primer on quartal harmony -- helps to understand how these guys really got inside the sound and away from traditional diatonic harmony.
#11
Quote by tehREALcaptain
modal tunes are what they are--its pretty basic.
If you take so what, you'll find theres a vamp in D dorian, which then moves up a half step to Eb dorian. ...



Sorry -- I did not see that you already posted this.

You are correct -- it was Bill Evans on the piano .. his voicing of the Em to Dm vamp uses an Emin7 add 11 voicing that is built on 4ths. The horns riff on this.

Compare it to another Miles composition like Four or Solar or Tune Up ... vast difference!
#12
Quote by Zen Skin
Sorry -- I did not see that you already posted this.

You are correct -- it was Bill Evans on the piano .. his voicing of the Em to Dm vamp uses an Emin7 add 11 voicing that is built on 4ths. The horns riff on this.

Compare it to another Miles composition like Four or Solar or Tune Up ... vast difference!

Hey Zen, is my post any good?
#13
Quote by liampje
Well, to answer your answer your question, modes are actually the note of the major scale which you treat like the root note.
Say I'm playing Dorian in the key of C, that's D as tonal center.
Obviously what your not going to do is playing a chord progression like C-G7-C.
More likely would be Dm-Eminadd9.
I put the add9 in the chord so it sort of resolves back into Dm minor because of the F# in the Eminadd9 and the F in the D minor.
Also playing short progressions maximum containing 3 or in special cases even 4 chords.
Also drones would be a good idea.
Where you drone the D in every chord of the progression.
Like Dmin-D/Eminadd9.
Since I don't want to **** your theory up wait before believing this untill someone like Sean or Zen approve this.


Don't give out (wrong) information you don't understand
#14
I thought the chords the pianist plays in "so what" were Gmajor and Fmajor, each with a 9 in the bass?

So in modal jazz, does a whole song stay in 1 mode? is it as simple as making the song resolve to something other than ionian or aeolian, or is there more to it?

ibanez, in your example it looks like i'd just use Emajor over the whole thing except for the E7, where i'd use E mixolydian. i had a hal leonard jazz guitar book once that tried to teach me the same method, according to my brother (who's learning some crazy hard-bop stuff in college) its practically useless to think of it that way, especially if the changes are happening too fast.
#15
Quote by TMVATDI
So in modal jazz, does a whole song stay in 1 mode?
Not necessarily. So What alternates between D dorian and Eb dorian.

Quote by TMVATDI
is it as simple as making the song resolve to something other than ionian or aeolian, or is there more to it?
Well, if you're in D dorian for example, you're going to resolve to D.
Only play what you hear. If you don’t hear anything, don’t play anything.
-Chick Corea
#16
Quote by food1010
Not necessarily. So What alternates between D dorian and Eb dorian.

Well, if you're in D dorian for example, you're going to resolve to D.

k that's what i meant haha, thanks.

I understand how you'd get there coming here often, but no.... just no.


well maybe i said it wrong, but i meant that, accordng to people here, modes were gotten rid of in favor of only using the major and minor scales and were later revived by modal jazz. so the modes were thrown out and the old modal system was then considered inferior.

That's a good idea. Be sure to check out Herbie Hancock's album Maiden Voyage as well.


okeley-dokeley



woah thanks man

you could start with researching the "dorian" and "mixolydian" modal scales.

along with the major scale these 3 scales can be used over the 3 main types of 7th chords.
major scale for the major7th chordd
dorian for the minor 7th chord
and mixolydian scale for the dominant 7th chord.


i know the modes in the sense that i know the intervals and the notes and what chords they can be played over :p

Its best to start with One octave shapes


or to just know your way around the fretboard? haha, i play piano more often than guitar anyway so whatev
#17
Quote by TMVATDI


well maybe i said it wrong, but i meant that, accordng to people here, modes were gotten rid of in favor of only using the major and minor scales and were later revived by modal jazz. so the modes were thrown out and the old modal system was then considered inferior.


That's like one of those stories that gets embellished a little with each telling. it starts with the truth, but then along the way peoples own assumptions & ideas get thrown in the mix.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at Apr 30, 2011,
#18
Quote by GuitarMunky
That's like one of those stories that gets embellished a little with each telling. it starts with the truth, but then along the way peoples own assumptions & ideas get thrown in the mix.

oh, makes sense :p
#19
Quote by TMVATDI
I thought the chords the pianist plays in "so what" were Gmajor and Fmajor, each with a 9 in the bass?

...



I think that is one way to think of it -- as polychords -- but those voicings would be wrong. Evans is definitely playing E A D G B to D G C F A. So G major and F major are there, but the bassist is riffing on D minor.
#20
Quote by Zen Skin
I think that is one way to think of it -- as polychords -- but those voicings would be wrong. Evans is definitely playing E A D G B to D G C F A. So G major and F major are there, but the bassist is riffing on D minor.

ok, thanks