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#1
So recently I've been realizing what a shithole this country is, and what little hope we have of changing this anytime soon.

But something that has deeply concerned me, as well as the video about the "fascist regime" song and other stories of how we are being oppressed more and more, is that fact that our government has taken military sanctions against Libya.

The reasons politicians have given for this is "he was going to massacre his own citizens who only want equality and democracy".

I then look at the situation in Syria, where government troops have already killed more than 500 people and I ask. Why does our government see fit to shell Gadaffi's tanks, but not the Syrian governments? Is it oil? Is it something else? I mean this totally perplexes me, it's complete double standards.

Forgive me if this is a common question, but I haven't seen anything on the news suggesting that people are questioning/criticizing this.

TL;DR - Get an attention span pl0x.

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#2
what country are you from?

oh, scotland.
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#3
Because you've got bigger concerns. Concerns like the needs of your own people. This whole "World-police" behaviour should really end.

Why don't they invade Saudi Arabia ? In KSA, women can't go to college, can't drive, can't go out without a black robe. Yet the Americans don't do shit about it.

Cause after all, all the USA is after is their own stability, and their own growth. Damn hypocrites.

Don't let my location fool you, I'm Lebanese not Canadian.
#4
So if the USA doesn't intervene, they're heartless, and if they do, they're hypocrites? I don't agree with them being in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya, but you guys should really make your minds up.

Oh, America isn't alone in this, so why do they get all the stick?

EDIT: Bad grammar is bad.
#5
The world itself isn't gonna improve any time soon...
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#6
Quote by Darkshade666
Because you've got bigger concerns. Concerns like the needs of your own people. This whole "World-police" behaviour should really end.

Why don't they invade Saudi Arabia ? In KSA, women can't go to college, can't drive, can't go out without a black robe. Yet the Americans don't do shit about it.

Cause after all, all the USA is after is their own stability, and their own growth. Damn hypocrites.

Don't let my location fool you, I'm Lebanese not Canadian.


My point is, why take action in one and not the other? Why not both? Why not none of them?

,--.-'-,--.
\ /-~-\ /
/ )' a a `( \
( ( ,---. ) )
THIS WAS MEANT TO BE A PIG
\ `(_o_o_)' /
\ `-' /
| |---| |
[_] [_]
#7
Quote by Darkshade666
Because you've got bigger concerns. Concerns like the needs of your own people. This whole "World-police" behaviour should really end.

Why don't they invade Saudi Arabia ? In KSA, women can't go to college, can't drive, can't go out without a black robe. Yet the Americans don't do shit about it.

Cause after all, all the USA is after is their own stability, and their own growth. Damn hypocrites.

Don't let my location fool you, I'm Lebanese not Canadian.



Don't you have Israel to worry about...go bother them.
#8
Woooo stirling

And intervention only occurs in cases of material gain for politicians or in the case that poloticald gaiun may be made. I suspect its more the altter with libya
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#10
Quote by EMGs_rule
I then look at the situation in Syria, where government troops have already killed more than 500 people and I ask. Why does our government see fit to shell Gadaffi's tanks, but not the Syrian governments? Is it oil? Is it something else? I mean this totally perplexes me, it's complete double standards.


Congratulations, in probably 5 minutes of thinking you've stumbled upon a realization most of this country's people still don't get. We don't give a damn about other people's freedom and democracy. Any time that's used as the justification for foreign intervention, it's bullshit.

Like Chomsky says, best way to determine a country's motivations is looking at what happens next and pinpoint who's standing to benefit. Who's benefitting from what's happening in Libya?

That's not to say Libyans may not also experience side benefits. Ghadafi's a crazy asshole.

But Western powers don't go to war out of the goodness of their hearts, or else we'd also be in about a hundred other places right now.
#11
Quote by EMGs_rule
My point is, why take action in one and not the other? Why not both? Why not none of them?

Self interests. These actions aren't happening solely because of goodwill.
#12
Welcome to the reason why I'm a socialist. The 'national interest' is a fiction - what's good for Britain in terms of international relations is hegemonically defined by an economic and political elite. What would be good for the vast majority of people in Britain isn't in fact wars of imperialist occupation and plunder of natural resource, it would be a social realignment of productive power.
Last edited by Kumanji at Apr 30, 2011,
#13
Quote by Kumanji
Welcome to the reason why I'm a socialist. The 'national interest' is a fiction - what's good for Britain in terms of international relations is hegemonically defined by an economic and political elite. What would be good for the vast majority of people in Britain isn't in fact wars of imperialist occupation and plunder of natural resource, it would be a social realignment of productive power.


The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money.
#15
Aw man. TS discovered Political Science 101 principles on his own. Good job.
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#16
Quote by ReeseKillsHIV
So if the USA doesn't intervene, they're heartless, and if they do, they're hypocrites? I don't agree with them being in Iraq, Afghanistan, or Libya, but you guys should really make your minds up.

Oh, America isn't alone in this, so why do they get all the stick?

EDIT: Bad grammar is bad.


You act like its the same people just suddenly changing their minds. Just because someone is from a foreign country doesn't mean they represent the ideas of everyone from the same country, just as my ideas don't reflect that of the rest of the nation.
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#17
Quote by samhell
The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other peoples money.
+1 thats why its never worked, too many people paid to do very little or nothing due to lack of motivation which capitalism provides. Communtist China is temporary, the people will revolt once they are undercut by the new cheap labor country on the block.
Last edited by new world udder at Apr 30, 2011,
#18
Quote by new world udder
+1 thats why its never worked, too many people paid to do very little or nothing due to lack of motivation which capitalism provides. Communtist China is temporary, the people will revolt once they are undercut as the new cheap labor country.

Wat.

Lrn2communism, neither China nor Russia were communist.

Capitalism only gives incentive to the rich; the vast majority of people chase after a false promise - if you working a little bit harder, and make me a little bit more money with your work, maybe you'll make it. But no. The vast majority have no hope whatsoever of making very much money in their lives.
Last edited by Kumanji at Apr 30, 2011,
#19
Quote by tayroar
You act like its the same people just suddenly changing their minds. Just because someone is from a foreign country doesn't mean they represent the ideas of everyone from the same country, just as my ideas don't reflect that of the rest of the nation.


No, I act like the person I was responding to said we should either invade every country experiencing a problem, or none at all. I responded accordingly. I don't know you, and I never suggested the person spoke for anyone but themselves. The plural I was referring to were the people who say things like the person I was addressing because I found it condescending.

TS wasn't even referring to America, yet someone came in here solely to target them when they were one of the more tentative parties involved in this no fly zone. Go bother France, because the American people didn't want this. Our government disagrees with us though, which isn't new.
#20
Quote by Kumanji
Wat.

Lrn2communism, neither China nor Russia were communist.

Capitalism only gives incentive to the rich; the vast majority of people chase after a false promise - if you working a little bit harder, and make me a little bit more money with your work, maybe you'll make it. But no. The vast majority have no hope whatsoever of making very much money in their lives.


Socialism doesn't work either, or it would have been successfully implemented by now. It requires an educated, and willing population of people that won't exploit the opportunities to abuse, and control others for profit, or gain.

People like that do not exist in a majority, so sorry if most people find your ideals fanciful at best.

EDIT: I would also like to apologize for the double post.
Last edited by ReeseKillsHIV at Apr 30, 2011,
#21
I get it but you are the miniscule minority who would work productively for the good of society but to the idiotic masses $ is the great motivator and a high tax socialist society is the great demotivator to an educated work force. Why bother educating myself if the uneducated slacker is guarenteed as good a life as mine?
#22
Quote by ReeseKillsHIV
Socialism doesn't work either, or it would have been successfully implemented by now. It requires an educated, and willing population of people that won't exploit the opportunities to abuse, and control others for profit, or gain.

People like that do not exist in a majority, so sorry if most people find your ideals fanciful at best.

If hovercars were possible they would have been invented by now.

Wtf?

Socialism doesn't require a society of monks, it would mean a vast increase in material wealth for the vast majority. And modern capitalist society is built on the backs of people who work for nothing out of altruism - carers, parents, charity workers.

The actual ability to exploit people for profit only exists for the tiny minority - those who own and control large businesses.

Quote by new world udder
I get it but you are the miniscule minority who would work productively for the good of society but to the idiotic masses $ is the great motivator and a high tax socialist society is the great demotivator to an educated work force. Why bother educating myself if the uneducated slacker is guarenteed as good a life as mine?
Socialism does not equate to what Obama does. Socialism is in fact a society in which the means of production are democratically controlled and shared, where society gets to share in the wealth of production, rather than just business owners. We don't have that, no society on earth (apart from a few exceptions which were brutally crushed) has had it.
Last edited by Kumanji at Apr 30, 2011,
#23
Quote by Kumanji
If hovercars were possible they would have been invented by now.

Wtf?

Socialism doesn't require a society of monks, it would mean a vast increase in material wealth for the vast majority. And modern capitalist society is built on the backs of people who work for nothing out of altruism - carers, parents, charity workers.

The actual ability to exploit people for profit only exists for the tiny minority - those who own and control large businesses.


So no one will own anything? Everyone will peacefully lay down their property for the common good? Who decides what is fair, and who gets what? How do we quantify the equality of " wealth " in different mediums? What incentive do I have to do a more demanding job if I receive equal shares?

I mean, ideally, it's a nice world, but realistically, I just don't see human nature magically changing itself to accommodate such a utopian fantasy.
#24
Our priorities? Whatever our supreme overlords say it is. Isn't it obvious?
#25
Quote by ReeseKillsHIV
So no one will own anything? Everyone will peacefully lay down their property for the common good? Who decides what is fair, and who gets what? How do we quantify the equality of " wealth " in different mediums? What incentive do I have to do a more demanding job if I receive equal shares?

I mean, ideally, it's a nice world, but realistically, I just don't see human nature magically changing itself to accommodate such a utopian fantasy.

Shall we take this to a PM? Drop your questions into my inbox to save clogging up threads
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#29
Quote by Kumanji
You never know, maybe some people might be interested in it.

I love it when you start talking about socialism. Please keep this conversation in the thread, I wanna see where it goes.
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#30
Quote by Kumanji
Troll harder, or read some Marx. Then you might actually understand what socialism is.


I have. And its all crap. If you work hard you are no better than the guy who loafs around. So where is the incentive to work harder? There is none and society regresses. This is what is happening in the U.S. We are no longer Capitalist, and moving more towards socialism. My Russian friend is going back to Russia because he says its less socialist than the U.S. !! The only difference between a socialist and a communist is the willingness to kill. Socialism defies human nature and takes a killer to enforce it. So how about it? Are you willing to kill people like me to achieve your goals?

And the U.S. is NOT Capitalist. It is now run by Wall Street which is nothing but community owned business (that you or I cannot afford to buy into) which is TADA! Communism!

And don't even get me started on fiat money and how it robs us...
Last edited by samhell at May 2, 2011,
#31
You know people were desperate to attack Libya if France and Canada get in on it. America got involved because the French will end up surrendering and we have to save their ass AGAIN.
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#32
Quote by Kumanji
You never know, maybe some people might be interested in it.


Tons of people are interested in socialism today. When you are unemployed don't have as much as the guy who still has his job or can never obtain that which the wall street fat cat has its easy to support a system that takes from them and gives to you so you can be "equal".
#33
Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
You know people were desperate to attack Libya if France and Canada get in on it. America got involved because the French will end up surrendering and we have to save their ass AGAIN.


I didn't go so well last time we did that...
#35
Quote by Cianyx
And you somehow turned the thread into socialism again, excellent


Hell he brought up Socialism in a thread stating that he hates waiters at a restaurant being polite to you. It's a sign of the working class being put down by the upper class . I think he's trying too hard sometimes.
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#36
Quote by EMGs_rule
Why does our government see fit to shell Gadaffi's tanks, but not the Syrian governments? Is it oil? Is it something else?



Nope, that's pretty much it.


Quote by Horsedick.MPEG
Hell he brought up Socialism in a thread stating that he hates waiters at a restaurant being polite to you. It's a sign of the working class being put down by the upper class . I think he's trying too hard sometimes.


Yeah, he's a real tryhard.
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#37
I think neither a pure socialism or pure capitalism would work. You need to balance it. I think classes are needed, but in all honesty I dont think any individual should make more than 150g a year.
#38
What the people in this thread need to realize that no system works. Every government will fail eventually, its just finding out which one will be greatest for the people at the time.

Rome, Greece, Imperial China, Mesopotamia, Ancient Egypt, Absolutism-Europe, and everywhere else agree.
#39
Quote by Darkshade666


Why don't they invade Saudi Arabia ? In KSA, women can't go to college, can't drive, can't go out without a black robe. Yet the Americans don't do shit about it.


It will take more then firepower to change the religious/customary beliefs of an entire religious nation.
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#40
Am I the only one here who thinks that bombing Libya was the right thing to do?
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