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#1
After looking at a few tabs n guitar pro files, seems that Muse's Plug In Baby is written in the key of D....

But... it starts off | A# B C# A# B C# D B | C# D E F# G F# E D C#|

And I'm having trouble pin-pointing exactly what's being played here... is it some sort of scale/mode, a series of arp.s or is it something else? (say a chromatic scale with skips?)... I'm lost to what's going on here... thus I turn to you guys.
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#2
Actually with the A# I'm inclined to think it's B harmonic minor.
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#3
From memory it's a combination of the B melodic minor, B blues and B dorian scales. It's basically the B minor scale employing some really common accidentals here and there.
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#4
Quote by Outside Octaves
After looking at a few tabs n guitar pro files, seems that Muse's Plug In Baby is written in the key of D....

But... it starts off | A# B C# A# B C# D B | C# D E F# G F# E D C#|

And I'm having trouble pin-pointing exactly what's being played here... is it some sort of scale/mode, a series of arp.s or is it something else? (say a chromatic scale with skips?)... I'm lost to what's going on here... thus I turn to you guys.

chromatic notes are used in a lot of songs. Eg. Stairway to heaven, master of puppets, etc. I don't know about this particular one though. I gues it's fine if it sounds good.
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#5
Oi... so from what you guys are saying, it's a mash-up of some fairly esoteric stuff... darn. I was rather hoping it would be of a simpler nature than that... guess I'll have to come back and learn this one when I have my theory up to a "higher level" of knowledge.

Damn, and I love that one. Seems all that I love ends up being complicated... then sub-sequentially dumped. Then again, I guess I should expect that when what I love in music is the more abstract styles, like psychedelic, progressive rock/metal, etc. it will end up that way.
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#6
Quote by Outside Octaves
Oi... so from what you guys are saying, it's a mash-up of some fairly esoteric stuff... darn. I was rather hoping it would be of a simpler nature than that... guess I'll have to come back and learn this one when I have my theory up to a "higher level" of knowledge.

Damn, and I love that one. Seems all that I love ends up being complicated... then sub-sequentially dumped. Then again, I guess I should expect that when what I love in music is the more abstract styles, like psychedelic, progressive rock/metal, etc. it will end up that way.

just because you don't know the theory behind a song doesn't mean you can't learn it. In fact, learning it will help you in understanding theory. Theory helps in explaining why something sounds good but the main thing is sound. Right?
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#7
Quote by Outside Octaves
Oi... so from what you guys are saying, it's a mash-up of some fairly esoteric stuff... darn. I was rather hoping it would be of a simpler nature than that... guess I'll have to come back and learn this one when I have my theory up to a "higher level" of knowledge.


It's not really that complicated. Just the B minor scale with accidentals. Sure you can't point to one specific scale and go "oh that's the Muse scale", but you can learn your minor scale, and figure out the accidentals from there.
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#8
oh... heh.

By the way you (AlanHB) were making it sound, it had all sorts of elements going on. this scale, that mode, and a bit of this other thing... that sort of "thing" going on lol.

But the P.O.V. of just some accidentals in the B minor scale is much simpler... An easier way to understand it.

So it isn't in the key of D but rather B minor... hmm... Gotta love when people start putting the notations wrong.... and yet everyone praises the piece cause the notes are right. It's like come on... at least put the key down right if you're tabbing it. lol. No wonder I got all out of sorts on that. Then again, (in editing this) I've realized that D major is the relative major of B minor.... DOH!... So which is right for this? B minor or D major? And what's the difference between Nashvile tuning (EADGBE) and standard tuning EADGBE? That's something else I'm wondering about on this tab lol.

Leave it to a composer to throw in accidentals...
They just keep throwing in those pesky little things to throw us off of their true intent... to enslave the world with their mesmerizing music!
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Last edited by Outside Octaves at May 1, 2011,
#9
Quote by Outside Octaves
By the way you (AlanHB) were making it sound, it had all sorts of elements going on. this scale, that mode, and a bit of this other thing... that sort of "thing" going on lol.

But the P.O.V. of just some accidentals in the B minor scale is much simpler... An easier way to understand it.

So it isn't in the key of D but rather B minor... hmm... Gotta love when people start putting the notations wrong.... and yet everyone praises the piece cause the notes are right. It's like come on... at least put the key down right if you're tabbing it. lol. No wonder I got all out of sorts on that.

Leave it to a composer to throw in accidentals...
They just keep throwing in those pesky little things to throw us off of their true intent... to enslave the world with their mesmerizing music!


Oh I never said anything about modes...at all. I may have mentioned the dorian SCALE but not modes nononononononnoono.

No modes.

It seems like you need to get a better grasp on major and minor scales if you couldn't pick the key of the song, so that would be a good place to start. Once you can identify the key as x major or minor, the scale you use in that song will always be x major or minor (unless it changes key). It follows then that any note out-of-key will then be an accidental. The accidentals used in this song are just common ones derived from popular scales.

So work on getting those major and minor scales down, and everything else should fall into place.
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#11
Quote by griffRG7321
No modes, no dorian scales, the intro riff is just B harmonic minor.


I was going off memory, was pretty sure that there was a major 6th stuck in there. Note I said scale
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#12
Quote by AlanHB
I was going off memory, was pretty sure that there was a major 6th stuck in there. Note I said scale


Yeah I haven't heard the song in ages, If there is a maj6th, it's melodic minor.
#14
Quote by ibanez1511
i think the intro starts on an F# chord.
so even though B harmonic is a good choice. perhaps F# phyrgian/dominant is a wiser one ?


Not modal. No modes. So no.

And the general consensus is that the song is in B minor, irrespective of what chord it starts on.
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#15
Quote by AlanHB
Oh I never said anything about modes...at all. I may have mentioned the dorian SCALE but not modes nononononononnoono.

.


at the risk of sounding like an idiot why would it be in the dorian scale not mode?

as far as im concerned theres no such thing as a dorian scale. if im not mistaken a scale is a series of notes where the 5th note from the root is a dominant. hence the invention of the harmonic scale...so the 5th note from the aeolian (which become phrygian) becomes a dominant 7th

the main difference between aeolian and dorian is the natural sixth in the dorian. now if the dorian where to become a scale, which would mean the corresponding aeolian must become a dominant chord, meaning a natural 7th of the dorian. this, with the natural 6th makes it simply a minor melodic.

obviously in the context it could be a dorian scale but it seems kind of far out there...
#16
Quote by AlanHB
Sure you can't point to one specific scale and go "oh that's the Muse scale", but you can learn your minor scale, and figure out the accidentals from there.


(scratches out his idea for creating his e-book The Quintessential Theory Guide to Mastering the Muse Scale, including harmonics, tapping, sweeping, and composing using it.)

Before you said that, Tom Hess, (my co-author) and I were lined up to make a cool million dollars with this eBay idea

Sean
#17
Quote by '93
at the risk of sounding like an idiot why would it be in the dorian scale not mode?

as far as im concerned theres no such thing as a dorian scale. if im not mistaken a scale is a series of notes where the 5th note from the root is a dominant. hence the invention of the harmonic scale...so the 5th note from the aeolian (which become phrygian) becomes a dominant 7th

the main difference between aeolian and dorian is the natural sixth in the dorian. now if the dorian where to become a scale, which would mean the corresponding aeolian must become a dominant chord, meaning a natural 7th of the dorian. this, with the natural 6th makes it simply a minor melodic.

obviously in the context it could be a dorian scale but it seems kind of far out there...


Well this song is not modal at all. There is a very strong pull to B minor to resolve and it doesn't comply with the rules of modal harmony. It is in the key of B minor.

So when we find ourselves in B minor, every scale, every note you play will be in some form of the B minor scale. This doesn't mean that you can't call the scales different things if you wish. A very common example would be the B blues scale. People say "blues scale" instead of "minor pentatonic with an additional flattened fifth". I was using the dorian SCALE instead of "B minor with a natural (or sharpened) 6th". I believe this is an acceptable use of the word "scale".

Now I can see that there may be lots of ways to explain the extra accidentals in this song, explaining why there is a minor scale with a major 7th, flattened 5th and natural 6th, but this is how I visualised these accidentals. I'm not claiming any key change, and not suggesting in any way that the song is modal, I'm just using the scale as a way of visualising accidentals (as is commonly done).
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#18
Originally Posted by '93
at the risk of sounding like an idiot why would it be in the dorian scale not mode?

as far as im concerned theres no such thing as a dorian scale. if im not mistaken a scale is a series of notes where the 5th note from the root is a dominant. hence the invention of the harmonic scale...so the 5th note from the aeolian (which become phrygian) becomes a dominant 7th

a scale is a collection of pitches, thats all. dorian mode and scale are pretty much interchangable, though if its not modal, it does make sense to say scale (though lots of people say mode, its not really a big deal).
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#19
Quote by tehREALcaptain
a scale is a collection of pitches, thats all. dorian mode and scale are pretty much interchangable, though if its not modal, it does make sense to say scale (though lots of people say mode, its not really a big deal).


I think one of the problems is that the term "mode" is repeated in relation to both the harmonic function of the song as well as the scale that it derives from.

I'll explain better.

x minor key uses x minor scale

x mode uses x mode

So if we looked at this superficially, we'd use a scale in a key, and a mode in a mode. However it gets confusing if we take x mode (scale) and use it in x key, as it can still work perfectly well (although it doesn't function the same).

Basically it would be a lot easier if that mode-scale had a different word to imply it could only be used in a mode-key. But it doesn't. I just use the word "scale" to avoid anybody thinking "mode" which leads to the same old thread here.
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#20
yeah but mode =/= scale

while the ionian is a scale, the dorian is not and neither is the aeolian. which is the reason why the minor harmonic was made. the minor melodic was later made to reduce the dissonance.

while i dont usually have a problem with people saying its a dorian scale (although incorrect) as i kind of understand what they are talking about, its the fact that you specified its a scale not a mode, which might make things seems easier...but according to how ive learnt it its wrong...mode =/= scale and they cannot be used interchangably
#21
Quote by '93
yeah but mode =/= scale

while the ionian is a scale, the dorian is not and neither is the aeolian. which is the reason why the minor harmonic was made. the minor melodic was later made to reduce the dissonance.


Explain how a mode =/= a scale, and how the ionian is a scale, but dorian isn't.
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#22
according to diatonic theory they are two separate things.

modes are derived from scales and can be scales. but not neccessarily

as i said, according to classical theory in order for a series of notes to be consired the scale they must have the dominant 5th. anything else is a mode. this is the reason why the aeolian mode is not a scale (the natural minor scale is a misnomer) but the minor harmonic scale is a scale. it is also the reason why the dorian is not a scale but a mode

and if there is no difference between the two then why did you point out a difference?

(god i love theory arguments)
#23
Any series of notes arranged in order with a root can be considered a scale. I don't understand your dominant 5th theory, especially considering that your examples "aeolian" and "harmonic minor" both have the same 5th if both are construed as scales. There are differences between modes and keys, but it is not related to the actual notes used.

I was pointing out the problems in terminology. I think the point may have gone a little over your head.

Think about your example;

yeah but mode =/= scale

while the ionian is a scale, the dorian is not and neither is the aeolian.


The problem here is that ionian is a mode. If used as a scale in a major or minor context, it goes by its more common name "the major scale". How you are accepting ionian is a scale, but not aeolian is completely beyond me. Using those notes as a scale in a non-modal context I would call them the major or minor scales, but I don't see your logic in drawing this conclusion.

If you're upset that I called a minor scale with a sharpened 6th the dorian scale, I'm sorry. I'll call it AlanHB's awesome scale to make you happier
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#24
im not upset about anything...more like just trying to argue cos its kind of fun to get in these kinds of things terminology's a bitch btw...its all about points of view which makes it very opinionated and has to be taken in the context

while aeolian and minor harmonic have the same 5th notes the chord that results out of it is different...in aeolian mode it becomes a minor 7th while in the minor harmonic it becomes a dominant. this is the difference that makes one a scale and one a just a mode

of course ionian is a mode...but it is also a scale. even though the word ionian refers to the mode of the tonic of the major scale, basically the root note. it is identical to the major scale

let me get this straight...you believe that a mode and a scale are the same thing? because thats the vibe im getting

modal playing (which i presume is what you are trying to avoid by referring to the dorian as a scale and not a mode) occurs all the time technically. we are always playing in a mode, depending on what notes we are centred around and what chords are underlying it.

of course in practise this does not come out, mainly becuase we dont really bother thinking about playing in different modes and stuff and just keep to the ionian and aeolian modes which are simple enough. introducing modes only comlicates things but they are used often without us knowing it.

and it would be minor scale with a natural 6th not sharpened as that would mean the minor 7th is being played twice :P
#26
how the hell do modes=scales...they are not the same thing. if they were then i dont understand what is the whole point of having modes. theyd just be scales...

they are scales in the sense that they resolve around the scale...essentially the dorian is the starting point of the major scale strating from the 2nd note

but the dorian is a mode not a scale
Last edited by '93 at May 2, 2011,
#27
"this piece is in a major key, this passage ascends the major scale"

"this piece is in the dorian mode, this passage ascends the dorian scale"

Unless you're referring to mode as the tonality (which I don't think you are). In which case scale and mode isn't the same thing.
Last edited by griffRG7321 at May 2, 2011,
#28
Quote by '93
how the hell do modes=scales...they are not the same thing. if they were then i dont understand what is the whole point of having modes. theyd just be scales...

they are scales in the sense that they resolve around the scale...essentially the dorian is the starting point of the major scale strating from the 2nd note

but the dorian is a mode not a scale


Ok I think I see what's going on now.

'93, what's the difference between a song in the key of A major, and a song in the mode of A dorian?
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#29
omg this is rediculous

A major scale is the ionian mode of A where A is the tonic
A B C# D E F# G# A

A Dorian is found in the key of G and is the 2nd mode of the G major scale
A dorian is
A B C D E F# G A
It is the F# that makes it different from A aeolian which has an F and its C and G which make it different from A major...

What else is needed to prove myself...im not some guy who just heard the words mode and scale, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. I have studied theory with a class and i use it.
#30
Quote by '93
omg this is rediculous

A major scale is the ionian mode of A where A is the tonic
A B C# D E F# G# A

A Dorian is found in the key of G and is the 2nd mode of the G major scale
A dorian is
A B C D E F# G A
It is the F# that makes it different from A aeolian which has an F and its C and G which make it different from A major...

What else is needed to prove myself...im not some guy who just heard the words mode and scale, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. I have studied theory with a class and i use it.


Your understanding of modes is flawed mate, that's what's happening.

A song is EITHER in a key or a mode (or is atonal but meh). For example in the key of G major, you can only play the G major scale (with or without accidentals). The scale will always resolve to G. So you can't play something like oh, A dorian, as it resolves to G. You are just playing the G major scale.

So it wasn't ridiculous, we were getting our lines crossed because you're unsure about the difference between tonality in a key vs tonality in a mode (or weren't even aware that there was a difference at all).

We have a modes sticky up the top of this forum that can help guide you in the right direction. It's a lot more than "play the major scale starting on the 2nd note".
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#31
Quote by '93
omg this is rediculous

A major scale is the ionian mode of A where A is the tonic
A B C# D E F# G# A

A Dorian is found in the key of G and is the 2nd mode of the G major scale
A dorian is
A B C D E F# G A
It is the F# that makes it different from A aeolian which has an F and its C and G which make it different from A major...

What else is needed to prove myself...im not some guy who just heard the words mode and scale, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. I have studied theory with a class and i use it.


You don't know what modes are.
#32
Quote by '93
omg this is rediculous

A major scale is the ionian mode of A where A is the tonic
A B C# D E F# G# A

A Dorian is found in the key of G and is the 2nd mode of the G major scale
A dorian is
A B C D E F# G A
It is the F# that makes it different from A aeolian which has an F and its C and G which make it different from A major...

What else is needed to prove myself...im not some guy who just heard the words mode and scale, put 2 and 2 together and got 5. I have studied theory with a class and i use it.



You don't need to prove yourself. You've just proved that you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You're definitely lost. Thanks for starting an argument, but it backfired, you just exposed yourself, probably not as "fun" now, I imagine

Go compose your little modal song, just for kicks and post up if you insist upon proving what you "know". It will be a good opportunity for you to get your thinking straightened out, and a great example for others, because we will have a real life example of just how common it is to misunderstand modes and their usage.

I'd echo what the others have said. Look at the modes sticky. Spend a week there especially with Mike Dodge's lucid explanations and examples, and you'll be better for it.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 2, 2011,
#33
Geez last page I said this;

Quote by AlanHB
I just use the word "scale" to avoid anybody thinking "mode" which leads to the same old thread here.


And I still couldn't stop it!
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#34
so then please explain how the hell os A dorian not in the key of G major?

Of course there is a tonality difference...playing modally mean structuring the melody around the mode...if everything in the major scale sounded the same there wouldnt be any variation...eveything would sound the same

A dorian does not sound like G major...it sounds like A dorian. But it is still derived from G major. It is still in the key of G major and using musical notation this is expressed as in the key signature

How the hell didnt i know what A dorian and A major where? I gave the notation, showed the differences in intervals between them...they are correct. Its one thing is i got the notes wrong (which if i did it would have been a silly mistake but i shouldnt have).

@sean where the hell do you get off acting like that? Youre just acting like a dickhead head who instead of telling where you think i went wrong just decides to mock me. I know there is a whole thread about modes but what my argu,emt is is that modes are not scales which is what alan said originally. Its one thing saying dorian scale and not mentioning modes but it is another thing saying that it is not a mode but a scale
#36
Quote by '93
so then please explain how the hell os A dorian not in the key of G major?


A dorian resolves to A and G major resolves to G. That's why.
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#37
Man, is it just me or are have there been alot more hissy fits in this section recently?
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#38
Quote by hames jetfield
A dorian resolves to A and G major resolves to G. That's why.


but thats the whole point of using modes...resolving to the different notes results in a different sound

however A dorian is still in the key of G major, just using putting emphasis on different notes, mainly A and its argeggio
#39
Quote by '93
but thats the whole point of using modes...resolving to the different notes results in a different sound

however A dorian is still in the key of G major, just using putting emphasis on different notes, mainly A and its argeggio


NO.

A dorian is not in the key of G. It's related to it. kinda like Em.

You can't really emphasize your way into or out of it.
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 2, 2011,
#40
Quote by '93

@sean where the hell do you get off acting like that? Youre just acting like a dickhead head who instead of telling where you think i went wrong just decides to mock me. I know there is a whole thread about modes but what my argu,emt is is that modes are not scales which is what alan said originally. Its one thing saying dorian scale and not mentioning modes but it is another thing saying that it is not a mode but a scale


If you want to call me out, I'm happy to oblige your boldness.

As to who I am, I am just another user on this forum carrying no more or less privlige than another user. However, I teach this and other elements of music theory for a living. I didn't mock you as you may think. You aren't a regular in this forum, and you apparently have not been privy to the conversations concerning. If you want to come in and ignorantly argue something that if true is nothing more than a semantic, but in actuality is non existent, because apparently you think that spurring that kind of debate is "fun" in some narcissistic, stirring the pot sort, of rubbing your hands together sort of way, then what's the difference if I think that you posting your compositions to prove your point about modes, would be equally entertaining?

It's not my job to correct you or prove you are wrong, nor is it anyone else's responsibility to teach you. You've done anything but humble yourself here when presented with contrary information (are you Liampje's older brother?), and I've read enough of your responses, which started out as friendly and congenial, and progressed into "what the hell's" to others responses to ascertain that you don't think you are wrong and thus engaging you on that level, is pointless. Instead prove you aren't wrong. Post up.

A scale is any sequence of notes, in ascending and descending order that is used to compose part or all of a musical piece, in terms of melody and or harmony. Period, end of story. Whatever else you append to these requirements are purely your own learning bias, and do not agree with or encompass a wider opinion of this definition. You are encouraged to cite sources if you disagree.

Best,

Sean
Last edited by Sean0913 at May 2, 2011,
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