#1
So for my final project in music theory, we have to either use Finale or Sibelius for the final draft. Which would be the better one to get? Also, what is the price range I am looking at.

(the composition has to be a 4 voice classical piece with good voice leading, modulations, neapolitan and augmented 6th chords, etc.)
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#2
IMO Finale is easier to pick up, but once you get used to it, sibelius is a much better program.
all the best.
(insert self-aggrandizing quote here)
#3
i like sibelius, it's very good, looks class, the new ones sound good too. i've never really tried finale but from what i've heard sibelius is better. problem with sibelius, the price, it's a ****ing fortune.

do you have do get that for college? are they making you's pay to get that?
#4
For what you are doing either will be fine. I can't remember which but one of them has a free download of the le version
#6
Quote by tehREALcaptain
IMO Finale is easier to pick up, but once you get used to it, sibelius is a much better program.


This is 100% the opposite of true

Sibelius' best feature is how user-friendly it is. It's very simple to use and pick up, but as a result is (in my opinion) a program that sometimes assumes things for you, or gets in your way. Another issue is, there is only Sibelius. With Finale you can get much cheaper versions with various fluff features stripped away.

Finale on the other hand, just gives you everything, but it doesn't help you with anything and the manual is going to be your friend for the first year or so of use (more if you don't regularly reference it). That said, it may be hard to use, but you can streamline it to an unbelievable level, probably beyond what you can do with Sibelius (but I don't know, I don't use Sibelius that much).

In my opinion, if you want to be doing straight ahead stuff (jazz charts or "beethoven" style notation) and that's all you will ever want to do, Sibelius would be the program for you. But if you ever want to have complete control over your notation, I think Finale is better.
#7
I like Finale. For what it does I don't think you can get much better.

Sibelius is good program though, and a bit cheaper I believe. If your just doing this for a school project and don't plan on using it much beyond that, Finale would be an unnecessary expense.
Don't they have a lab or something at school were you can do your work?
shred is gaudy music
#8
I'm on the Finale website; which one could I get that would have everything I need to do this project?

It says the Allegro version only costs 200.
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#9
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
This is 100% the opposite of true

Sibelius' best feature is how user-friendly it is. It's very simple to use and pick up, but as a result is (in my opinion) a program that sometimes assumes things for you, or gets in your way. Another issue is, there is only Sibelius. With Finale you can get much cheaper versions with various fluff features stripped away.

Finale on the other hand, just gives you everything, but it doesn't help you with anything and the manual is going to be your friend for the first year or so of use (more if you don't regularly reference it). That said, it may be hard to use, but you can streamline it to an unbelievable level, probably beyond what you can do with Sibelius (but I don't know, I don't use Sibelius that much).

In my opinion, if you want to be doing straight ahead stuff (jazz charts or "beethoven" style notation) and that's all you will ever want to do, Sibelius would be the program for you. But if you ever want to have complete control over your notation, I think Finale is better.


Finale is a beast of a program. The newest version is essentially the same thing as sibelius except with better sounds. Finale/Sibelius have been going through the Mac/Windows fight for a while now... Finale was all anyone knew. Then Sibelius shows up with a fw things done better. Then finale overcompensates and ruins their program. Then Sibelius releases a new version that is pretty close to perfect. Then finale wises up and releases their version of Sibelius with a few tweaks that give it an edge
#10
Quote by thegloaming
I'm on the Finale website; which one could I get that would have everything I need to do this project?

It says the Allegro version only costs 200.


The free demo

Go to the notepad section and get the trial
#11
Well, I'd actually like to have the program.

Would the Print Music edition work well?
I couldn't think of a thing that I hope tomorrow brings
#12
Quote by thegloaming
Well, I'd actually like to have the program.

Would the Print Music edition work well?


That will be fine. It should be able to get you through pretty much any college music program
#13
Yeah, PrintMusic should do fine for the average music student, unless you're a composition major, in which case you'll want a full version.


Quote by vjferrara
Finale is a beast of a program. The newest version is essentially the same thing as sibelius except with better sounds. Finale/Sibelius have been going through the Mac/Windows fight for a while now... Finale was all anyone knew. Then Sibelius shows up with a fw things done better. Then finale overcompensates and ruins their program. Then Sibelius releases a new version that is pretty close to perfect. Then finale wises up and releases their version of Sibelius with a few tweaks that give it an edge


I always think of Sibelius as a Mac and Finale as Windows. If you know what you're doing, Windows can be much more powerful than a Mac, but Macs are plug and play in a way that Windows can't match. That said, you're right, they're become very similar in these latest versions, but I still think the level of control is much higher in Finale.
#14
Quote by jazz_rock_feel
Yeah, PrintMusic should do fine for the average music student, unless you're a composition major, in which case you'll want a full version.


I always think of Sibelius as a Mac and Finale as Windows. If you know what you're doing, Windows can be much more powerful than a Mac, but Macs are plug and play in a way that Windows can't match. That said, you're right, they're become very similar in these latest versions, but I still think the level of control is much higher in Finale.


Definitely. Finale is my favorite by far.
#15
Sibelius for sure. All of my orchestral stuff was done in Sibelius. My stint with Finale didn't go very well, as I couldn't figure anything out whereas in Sibelius I figured (most) things out on the fly.

My vote goes to Sibelius. If you want to hear what it can do (with the good package) just look on my pro.
#16
Am I the only one who finds both programs incredibly awkward? Maybe I've just been using GP to write for too long but I find it very difficult to maneuver. For example, in GP if I, say, add a Bb quarter note and after it an A quarter note, and decide afterwards I want the Bb to be a eight note or a dotted quarter note, it simply changes the value. However in Sibelius it either erases all of the notes or creates rests for you. I find it incredibly tedious to have to write a phrase all over again just because I want a half note preceding it.

Also tuplets are very awkward. Why is it if I take a series of eight notes, that when I turn them into eight note triplets every other note is erased? Why can it not edit notes independent of their position in the measure? I find GP's method of having every note a single editable entity and continuing on when the logical end of a measure is reached very intuitive and practical. Sibelius seems to be only a program for entering notes off of a score you already have handy. In other words what's the point? It takes me about thrice as long to enter in anything in Sibelius than it does it GP, let alone composing. I only wish GP had support for different clefs and transpositions and a way of adding in text and symbols anywhere on the score (that's really what Sibelius is best at). Then it would be the ultimate composition software IMO.
#17
Sibelius is by far the better choice for almost all practical musicians.

The only advantage that Finale claims over Sibelius is that it is limitless in notational possibilities. However, just because it CAN do more than Sibelius in that aspect doesn't mean you will ever need to go there. Most people are not avante garde composers who need to create graphic notation. So that's where Finale shines. But do you want to deal with this incredibly convoluted and poorly designed application just for that fact? Or would you rather save hundreds and thousands of hours and hassle on score presentation, file handling, score and playback template setups, and learning curve?

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#18
^

They are both great programs. Finale isn't limitless, but it sure is deep, and I wouldn't say that it's poorly designed either.

Lets face it, we all prefer the program that we're used to.

I do agree that sibilieus is great though, and for the TS's purpose it may indeed be the right choice. Just not agreeing with the Finale "bashing".
shred is gaudy music
Last edited by GuitarMunky at May 2, 2011,
#19
Quote by Sóknardalr
Am I the only one who finds both programs incredibly awkward? Maybe I've just been using GP to write for too long but I find it very difficult to maneuver. For example, in GP if I, say, add a Bb quarter note and after it an A quarter note, and decide afterwards I want the Bb to be a eight note or a dotted quarter note, it simply changes the value. However in Sibelius it either erases all of the notes or creates rests for you. I find it incredibly tedious to have to write a phrase all over again just because I want a half note preceding it.
Yea but then it sounds like in GP you're prone to incorrect measures.

Also tuplets are very awkward. Why is it if I take a series of eight notes, that when I turn them into eight note triplets every other note is erased? Why can it not edit notes independent of their position in the measure? I find GP's method of having every note a single editable entity and continuing on when the logical end of a measure is reached very intuitive and practical. Sibelius seems to be only a program for entering notes off of a score you already have handy. In other words what's the point? It takes me about thrice as long to enter in anything in Sibelius than it does it GP, let alone composing. I only wish GP had support for different clefs and transpositions and a way of adding in text and symbols anywhere on the score (that's really what Sibelius is best at). Then it would be the ultimate composition software IMO.

I disagree. When you've gotten comfortable with Sibelius, you can write and prepare the score at a pretty fast pace. It may be that you haven't gotten in sync with its workflow yet. But considering not just the notes, but everything surrounding the notes and how the notes should be properly presented, there is no chance in hell that GP will ever match up to Sibelius or even Finale.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#20
Quote by Xiaoxi
Yea but then it sounds like in GP you're prone to incorrect measures.


No actually not because GP keeps track of how many notes can be fitted into the measure based on what time signature is being used at that moment. Therefore you are uninhibited and at the same time there is no chance of any measures exceeding the maximum amount of notes. Very intuitive I find, although I have been using GP for a long time so I have just gotten used to working like this.


Quote by Xiaoxi
I disagree. When you've gotten comfortable with Sibelius, you can write and prepare the score at a pretty fast pace. It may be that you haven't gotten in sync with its workflow yet. But considering not just the notes, but everything surrounding the notes and how the notes should be properly presented, there is no chance in hell that GP will ever match up to Sibelius or even Finale.


I have not given up on it because GP doesn't have any actual scorewriting capabilities but I find it awkward to handle at times.
#21
Quote by GuitarMunky

They are both great programs. Finale isn't limitless, but it sure is deep, and it's not poorly designed.
I feel very strongly that it IS poorly designed. It has a lot of bugs in the programming, and it doesn't handle any score object with efficiency. Almost all scores that I see from people who use Finale (and I see a lot) are atrocious and unacceptable for professional standards. Sure, maybe that's because most of them aren't experts with Finale (which itself says something about the ease of use) and a good amount of them are incompetent at score presentation in general, but at least the same incompetent people will get a significantly better presentation in Sibelius by default.

It really just depends on what you want to do and how much you want to spend.

Sieblius 6 full is about $70 with my education discount. Every version has dramatic changes.

Finale releases a new version every year with virtually no new features, only marginal bug fixes. They are always $100+ each.

Quote by GuitarMunky

I do agree that sibilieus is great though, and for the TS's purpose it may indeed be the right choice. Just not agreeing with the Finale "bashing".

My experiences with Finale has been so bad, directly and indirectly, that I have nothing but pure hatred for it. I don't recognize it as a good program for anyone on an almost factual level. Once every full moon I see a Finale score from someone that's actually correct, but almost without fail that person is a veteran Finale user and put an excessive amount of time in to the presentation. You never see anyone who just picked it up a few weeks or even months ago and is getting a passable score. There are always note spacing problems, erratic bar spacing, erratic layout, erratic everything and they don't know how to fix it.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at May 2, 2011,
#22
Quote by Sóknardalr
No actually not because GP keeps track of how many notes can be fitted into the measure based on what time signature is being used at that moment. Therefore you are uninhibited and at the same time there is no chance of any measures exceeding the maximum amount of notes. Very intuitive I find, although I have been using GP for a long time so I have just gotten used to working like this.
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the annoyances you pointed out, but those are minor flaws when you consider the entire package. I haven't used GP for a very very long time, but I know very well that it's not built for professional scoring. And if you are going into that field, you don't really have a choice: it's mandatory that you use Sibelius/Finale.

I have not given up on it because GP doesn't have any actual scorewriting capabilities but I find it awkward to handle at times.

I'd be happy to help and make it easier for you.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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#23
I don't think that either is designed more poorly or better than the other. Each one has a learning curve when you've never used the program before. I've used both in college. I prefer finale because that's the one I used most. Either one is a good choice but it's like the Mac/PC argument: whichever one you start with is most likely going to be your favorite.
#24
Quote by Xiaoxi
I feel very strongly that it IS poorly designed. It has a lot of bugs in the programming, and it doesn't handle any score object with efficiency. Almost all scores that I see from people who use Finale (and I see a lot) are atrocious and unacceptable for professional standards. Sure, maybe that's because most of them aren't experts with Finale (which itself says something about the ease of use) and a good amount of them are incompetent at score presentation in general, but at least the same incompetent people will get a significantly better presentation in Sibelius by default.

Sieblius 6 full is about $70 with my education discount. Every version has dramatic changes.

Finale releases a new version every year with virtually no new features, only marginal bug fixes. They are always $100+ each.


You can certainly create professional, acceptable, non-atrocious scores with Finale. I've seen plenty.

I'm not saying I haven't been annoyed with the program at times, but I'll just say I disagree with the harshness of your assessment.


Anyway one for Sibelius.
shred is gaudy music
#25
Quote by vjferrara
Either one is a good choice but it's like the Mac/PC argument: whichever one you start with is most likely going to be your favorite.

Except that is not true. I started with Finale and it was so tedious to use that I stumbled onto Sibelius out of just WISHING there was something better. Almost every one of my peers use Finale because they don't have Sibelius or haven't ever heard/used it. Once they do, Finale goes in the trash.

Quote by GuitarMunky
You can certainly create professional, acceptable, non-atrocious scores with Finale. I've seen plenty.

I'm not saying you can't. I've seen good scores on it too (see my previous edit). It just takes that much more energy, time, and knowledge than it does in Sibelius.

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at May 2, 2011,
#26
Quote by Xiaoxi
Don't get me wrong, I agree with the annoyances you pointed out, but those are minor flaws when you consider the entire package. I haven't used GP for a very very long time, but I know very well that it's not built for professional scoring. And if you are going into that field, you don't really have a choice: it's mandatory that you use Sibelius/Finale.


I'd be happy to help and make it easier for you.


Thanks for the offer, you're most kind. However I don't know really if there's much that can be done actually. It is probably just a matter of getting used to it. Right now I am setting up something I wrote a while ago for practice and it is going much more smoothly than I would have expected.
#27
Sibelious is so hard to use
I've been using it for a year at school and still have no clue how to insert triplets and different guitar articulations.
Never tried Finale.
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#28
Quote by Woffelz
Sibelious is so hard to use
I've been using it for a year at school and still have no clue how to insert triplets

ctrl+3 or cmd+3

ctrl+2/3/4/5/6/7/8 etc for whatever you need. Or Create -> Tuplet

Everything is there...you just need to check the file menus.

Guitar articulations are in the Line banks (key: L) for functional playback. Pure symbols are in the symbols menu (Z).

...modes and scales are still useless.


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Last edited by Xiaoxi at May 3, 2011,
#29
I've never had any issues with Sibelius at all and from what I remember of Finale I had no issues there either. Both are fine programs and you'll most likely side with the one you try first.