#1
Normally I'd be able to work this out for myself, but I can't make heads or tails of this chord grouping. They sound good together, but when it comes to soloing over them theoretically I can't make any sense of this on guitar to write over.

The main issue is that I'm not entirely sure what the 2nd chord is. The first is just a Dmaj7 (D, A, C#, F#, A)

However, the second chord is:

686786
A#, F, G#, D, G, A#

Anybody have any ideas if these two chords actually go together, or if there's just a lot of random accidentals/a key change at the switch? And, in either case, what would be a logical way to approach these for solos, other than just playing to chord tones?
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Last edited by Hail at May 3, 2011,
#2
well you know Dmaj7 works in the keys of D and A so you can use the notes of both of those over that chord.... the other one is a bit trickier... hmmm okay all the notes involved in the next chord fit into Ebmajor so those notes should work over that... I think the chord is Bb9 (Bb D F Ab C)
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#3
Are they the only two chords in the progression? We can't infer that much from just part of a song, it could be in any context.
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#4
Quote by AlanHB
Are they the only two chords in the progression? We can't infer that much from just part of a song, it could be in any context.


Yeah, it's just 2 chords, that's what throws me off so bad. This is the main progression/riff/whatever from a song my drummer wrote, with a completely irrelevant part for bridge/chorus, but it's more of a jam track so I need to figure out how the 2 work together (or, if they don't, whether I should approach them separately, and how)


The Dmaj7 is easy to figure out, but working it with the other one is really strange. I don't even know what key the 2nd would work with, and it conflicts with the 1st because of the A# and F natural. I'm seriously lost on this - I'm even questioning myself on whether it's sharps or flats for the 2nd chord.
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#5
Well I can tell you that the chord is a Bb9. So basically since it's dominant and it has a flat 7th, your simplest approach would be the mixolydian mode in Bb, or the same notes as Eb major if that helps. There are a lot of other approaches but that is the simplest. Explaining how it fits in the progession is another story though.
#6
Quote by SwamToTheMoon
Well I can tell you that the chord is a Bb9. So basically since it's dominant and it has a flat 7th, your simplest approach would be the mixolydian mode in Bb, or the same notes as Eb major if that helps.


Why would it be in Bb mixo mode? The Dmaj7 has an A, C# and F# in it, which are not in Bb mixo, destroying it as a theory.

I'm thinking it's simply a IIImaj7 - I9 progression in Bb major.
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#7
The 2nd chord, either the tab is wrong or the notes are wrong.

686786

8th fret B string is a G note and not a C.

If the tab is correct , it would be a Bb13 chord.

the 2nd chord could possibly pull to Eb (where Eb would be the I) and the 2nd chord would act as a V7 of some kind.

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#8
Quote by Hail
Normally I'd be able to work this out for myself, but I can't make heads or tails of this chord grouping. They sound good together, but when it comes to soloing over them theoretically I can't make any sense of this on guitar to write over.

The main issue is that I'm not entirely sure what the 2nd chord is. The first is just a Dmaj7 (D, A, C#, F#, A)

However, the second chord is:

686786
A#, F, G#, D, C, A#

Anybody have any ideas if these two chords actually go together, or if there's just a lot of random accidentals/a key change at the switch? And, in either case, what would be a logical way to approach these for solos, other than just playing to chord tones?

The second chord=A#9 That's a dominant seventh with an added 9th.
Both can be found in Dmajor.
^
This is wrong sorry those are not both in D major.
It could be a borrow chord from D minor, with an added G#.
Or it's all in A and then the A# is a neapolitan chord with an added C.
Or the song moves from D major to Eb major.
There are tons of options.
Last edited by liampje at May 3, 2011,
#9
Quote by Hail

However, the second chord is:

686786
A#, F, G#, D, C, A#


it's a dominant 7th, i'd say built on Bb. it could be functioning as some kind of aug 6th, the one where there's two dominant 7th looking chords built on the flat 6th and 5th degree respectively.

to be honest, i wouldn't worry too much about it, if there's only two chords, i wouldn't be overly worried about the function in relation to the other chord, as most of it will be speculation and not really help. for instance as i said that could be some kind of aug 6, or the V of n6, but none of this really helps in a progression with just two chords.

the C there is also like a landini cadence. i'd say that's landini before i'd say it's part of the chord as such. that's where the leading note drops by a tone and usually goes back up to the tonic, but this goes up to the 5th, which is ok.

when i play it (on my piano admittedly) i hear:

A#, F, G#, D, C, A#, (G#, Fx)

V7-----------------------------I

Brackets above are pure extrapolation, but that's how i'd see it, also, they should be written in flats obviously so this doesn't happen, i''d change it myself, but i'm going for breakfast...
#10
when in doubt, re arrange the chord in thirds, giving you D, F A# C G#, which could be called Dm7 #5 #11, which doesn't make a ton of sense. if you use an enharmonic spelling to get D F Bb, C, Ab, you have a Bb9 chord though (or, if you respell the D as C## and F as E#, it could be A#9, but thats kind of a headache), which is probably what your looking at. It can be considered an augmented sixth chord with a 9th (spelled Bb, D, F G#, C), occurring in the key of D--and has a pre-dominant function (it can also function as an ordinary dominant).
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Last edited by tehREALcaptain at May 3, 2011,
#11
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwamToTheMoon
Well I can tell you that the chord is a Bb9. So basically since it's dominant and it has a flat 7th, your simplest approach would be the mixolydian mode in Bb, or the same notes as Eb major if that helps.


Why would it be in Bb mixo mode? The Dmaj7 has an A, C# and F# in it, which are not in Bb mixo, destroying it as a theory.

I'm thinking it's simply a IIImaj7 - I9 progression in Bb major.
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It's not in Bb mixo mode as a lot of people after me have gotten into. One approach to soloing/creating lines over that chord if you approach it modally is to use Bb mixo since it is a dominant chord. That's all.
#12
Quote by SwamToTheMoon
It's not in Bb mixo mode as a lot of people after me have gotten into. One approach to soloing/creating lines over that chord if you approach it modally is to use Bb mixo since it is a dominant chord. That's all.

uh... the progression needs to be modal in order for you to approach it modally.... and this is not modal.
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#13
Quote by SwamToTheMoon
It's not in Bb mixo mode as a lot of people after me have gotten into. One approach to soloing/creating lines over that chord if you approach it modally is to use Bb mixo since it is a dominant chord. That's all.


Even if you were referring to Bb mixo as just a major scale with a b7, it would still constantly clash with the IIImaj7. Referring to Bb mixo is extremely limited in any way.
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#14
Ok all I'm trying to say in really really simple terms then is that if you were to play notes from the Bb mixolydian scale, over top of that one specific chord (just THAT chord) it would sound fine. Maybe not terribly interesting and great in the whole progression but fine over that one chord. You can approach each chord in a progression using a proper scale/mode relating to each chord instead of blanketing one key over top (unless every jazz guitar teacher I've had has been wrong plus the three theory books by my desk). F***, I now get why people get pissed off trying to voice a perspective.
#15
Quote by SwamToTheMoon
Ok all I'm trying to say in really really simple terms then is that if you were to play notes from the Bb mixolydian scale, over top of that one specific chord (just THAT chord) it would sound fine. Maybe not terribly interesting and great in the whole progression but fine over that one chord. You can approach each chord in a progression using a proper scale/mode relating to each chord instead of blanketing one key over top (unless every jazz guitar teacher I've had has been wrong plus the three theory books by my desk). F***, I now get why people get pissed off trying to voice a perspective.


So you're applying CST to the Bb chord. Which scale would you use for the other one? I know you're upset but you didn't make it clear it was intended just for one chord, or that you were using CST.
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#16
Quote by AlanHB
So you're applying CST to the Bb chord. Which scale would you use for the other one? I know you're upset but you didn't make it clear it was intended just for one chord, or that you were using CST.


Nah man I'm really not upset at all. I just get sick of people in music forums jumping down somenes throat because they didn't use one hundred percent proper terminology all the time. I don't feel the need to overcomplicate with terminology when it's hard to discern what 'level' the poster is at (no offence I hope). There are multiple approaches to just the one chord and with CST (Chord Scale Theory I assume?) one way would be a D Lydian approach. I'm honestly intrigued how you would approach an improv line? (No joke or smugness intended )
#17
Quote by SwamToTheMoon
I'm honestly intrigued how you would approach an improv line? (No joke or smugness intended )


Meh just account for accidentals, using the Bb major scale as a base
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#18
So...anyone else find it kinda funny that his drummer wrote this?

Anyway, what seems to be the most logical way to approach this to me is that it's in D major, borrowing the Bb13 from the parallel minor (D minor). Bb13 isn't strictly in D minor due to the Ab, but the Ab is just a b5 of D, the blue note. In any case, try this: D major pentatonic(or A major pentatonic) over the Dmaj7 and D blues over the Bb13.
#19
Quote by grampastumpy
So...anyone else find it kinda funny that his drummer wrote this?


He's a pretty genius guitarist when he wants to be, but prefers drums for some reason. Probably because he has a tight rhythm but absolutely no knowledge of theory so he writes stuff like this that just boggles me

I'll have access to my full rig this weekend (= looper). Pentatonic/blues would probably be a solid bet, as well as working in chord tones with a base scale template; this was my initial thought to approaching it, but I haven't been able to mess with a looper for a few weeks and this is bugging me. My main concern was that I wasn't sure if it was possible to work with this without being forced into chord-specific stuff.

Thanks everybody.
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