#1
I read through the sticky and it actually cleared up some things I was unsure of, so my question has kind of changed a bit.

I was practicing my ears with scales and I realized that I don't know particular scales, outside of the basic Major and Minor (in my mind there's those two basic and the rest are kind of advanced, if that makes sense), I could tell the difference between say the harmonic minor and phyrgian and the mixolydian scales, I could hear the intervals after several instances of trial and error, but it made me realize that I don't know the makeup of the modes.

For example, I know how to build a major scale based on its intervallic relationship, (w,w,h,w,w,w,h) etc, but not the modes. It's not that I haven't had time or the resources but I kind of took the route that I know the notes in the scales and what accidentals are in what and which modes are which number so to speak, so if you wanted me to play G# Locrian I could tell you that its in A, or whatever and it has 3 sharp notes

At first I was confused about modes, because they all sounded the same to me, compared to their root scale, I always heard C major or A minor, never F mixolydian, you know?
I never knew how to use them either, because I always thought you used them in the whatever key you're in and then bring in different notes, changing the mode, which I now know is called Modal Interchange, or if you just played starting on the note that the chord is underneath, but staying diatonic, which I now know is Melodic Interchange.

I was always getting conflicting answers regarding this until now.


So I guess my question is, do I need to go back to the basics and learn their intervallic relationships or is just okay that I know how they sound in context; something that is using modal interchange, say I brought in the A# of the key of B into a song thats in E, and went to E Lydian for that measure or whatever, I know what that sounds like and how it feels.

what do you guys think?


Please feel free to correct me on anything I got wrong, I hope I didn't use any terms like an idiot!!
And I hope my question was clear, because I knew exactly what I wanted to ask until I looked at those articles
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#2
Wait, so are you going to have your own asks thread or make separate ones? One is going to go mate.
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#3
Quote by AlanHB
Wait, so are you going to have your own asks thread or make separate ones? One is going to go mate.


Can't a man have fun with his thread titles? lol, You must've not seen my posts in the Pit for a while, they were all "wtfbbqsauce"


... oh...you're a mod I see what you did there
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#4
I just changed the title of the other one, no worries

As for your question, if there's a key, modes don't apply.

And 99.999999999999999999999% of the time, there is a key.
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#5
Quote by AlanHB
I'll just close the other one, no worries

As for your question, if there's a key, modes don't apply.

And 99.999999999999999999999% of the time, there is a key.



Wait, now I'm confused lol

I'm not saying the whole thing is modal, if that's what you thought I meant.
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Swirling in blissfully restless visions of all our bleary progress
Glowing in radiant madness
Last edited by TDKshorty at May 3, 2011,
#6
Quote by TDKshorty
Wait, now I'm confused lol


It's pretty straight forward. Which part didn't you understand?
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#7
Quote by AlanHB

As for your question, if there's a key, modes don't apply.

And 99.999999999999999999999% of the time, there is a key.


That's not really true, one can play modes over certain chords to bring out desired tonalities, it happens in jazz all the time.
#8
Quote by AlanHB
It's pretty straight forward. Which part didn't you understand?


Well in my mind using modes in a key, doing something like Modal interchange, is just bringing in notes that aren't diatonic to add to the chords underneath and to change the feel.

Did you think I meant something being completely modal and not changing at all?
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#9
Quote by Phiddler
That's not really true, one can play modes over certain chords to bring out desired tonalities, it happens in jazz all the time.


But it actually functions as a major or minor scale with accidentals. Whilst one may call it a mode, it still functions as the major or minor scale. If you are using this approach there is no difference between the "dorian mode" and the "dorian scale" as you are both simply characterising both as a set of notes. In the end they'll resolve to wherever the key dictates and boom, you have your major or minor scale with or without accidentals.

However if you say a song is in x mode as opposed to x key, there's going to be a bit more things going on.

And TDK, "modal interchange" is a process of borrowing a chord from the parallel major/minor. Playing "out of key notes" is called playing "accidentals".

And playing notes that aren't chords tones is called, err, not emphasising chord tones
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#11
To answer your question, yes definitely learn the intervalic relationships, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7 8, 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6,b7 8 etc cuz then you'll be able to apply them to any key
#12
Quote by AlanHB
But it actually functions as a major or minor scale with accidentals. Whilst one may call it a mode, it still functions as the major or minor scale. If you are using this approach there is no difference between the "dorian mode" and the "dorian scale" as you are both simply characterising both as a set of notes. In the end they'll resolve to wherever the key dictates and boom, you have your major or minor scale with or without accidentals.

However if you say a song is in x mode as opposed to x key, there's going to be a bit more things going on.

And TDK, "modal interchange" is a process of borrowing a chord from the parallel major/minor. Playing "out of key notes" is called playing "accidentals".

And playing notes that aren't chords tones is called, err, not emphasising chord tones


https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187159

Well then how I am supposed to interpret that ha, I think its the 2nd or 3rd one. To me Modal Interchange means playing over a chord, but using the notes from the root of that chord, so if you're in C and you play a I-IV-V, and like the article says you're wanting to play around in D, you'd be using notes from D Dorian-D Aeolian and D Mixolydian I believe
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#13
Quote by TDKshorty
https://www.ultimate-guitar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=187159

Well then how I am supposed to interpret that ha, I think its the 2nd or 3rd one. To me Modal Interchange means playing over a chord, but using the notes from the root of that chord, so if you're in C and you play a I-IV-V, and like the article says you're wanting to play around in D, you'd be using notes from D Dorian-D Aeolian and D Mixolydian I believe

if you are playing over a C major progression you are playing in C major, not D Dorian. the rest of it you'll be playing accidentals no D Aeolian and no D mixolydian just C with accidentals....
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Last edited by krypticguitar87 at May 3, 2011,
#14
Quote by krypticguitar87
if you are playing over a C major progression you are playing in C major, not D Dorian.


Check out the article I posted and read Modal Interchange, I could've said it wrong, but the article makes sense and it backs what I was saying, or at least trying to say.


EDIT: I say you're edit, and I mean, to me its the same thing, what we both said, ha!

But I guess.... getting back to my original question and all, what do you guys reckon'?
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Last edited by TDKshorty at May 3, 2011,
#16
That Corwinoid's explanation on modal interchange has been bugging me aswell. And also the melodic interchange, since in internet that term seems to be nonexistant.
#17
I might just have to close this thread
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#18
Quote by TDKshorty
Check out the article I posted and read Modal Interchange, I could've said it wrong, but the article makes sense and it backs what I was saying, or at least trying to say.


EDIT: I say you're edit, and I mean, to me its the same thing, what we both said, ha!

But I guess.... getting back to my original question and all, what do you guys reckon'?


basically he explains a concept of relating modes to specific chords, basically taking a chord and saying these notes will sound good over this chord so Cmaj7 is the I in C major so it has the same notes as C ionian but it is also the IV in G major so C lydian would work, however in reality as long as the progression is not modal and resolves to a specific key, it is in that key.

so your concept of playing C F G and playing D Dorian over the C, well you are just playing the notes of C major over the C major chord then your playing the notes of F major over the F chord and the notes of G major over the G chord. it still resolves to C major and therefore you are playing in C major, with some accidentals.

in short he's just telling you to use the notes in the key represented by the chord name over that chord, but he's making it so you need to memorize the formulae of every mode.
Quote by Dirk Gently
Some pieces are only meant to be played by people with six fingers on their fretting hand. Sorry.
#19
Quote by krypticguitar87
basically he explains a concept of relating modes to specific chords, basically taking a chord and saying these notes will sound good over this chord so Cmaj7 is the I in C major so it has the same notes as C ionian but it is also the IV in G major so C lydian would work, however in reality as long as the progression is not modal and resolves to a specific key, it is in that key.

so your concept of playing C F G and playing D Dorian over the C, well you are just playing the notes of C major over the C major chord then your playing the notes of F major over the F chord and the notes of G major over the G chord. it still resolves to C major and therefore you are playing in C major, with some accidentals.

in short he's just telling you to use the notes in the key represented by the chord name over that chord, but he's making it so you need to memorize the formulae of every mode.


I get it, I mean that's the whole importance of it, changing the scale so you're really just playing by what chord is underneath.


But I guess... this thread has gotten a little derailed ha!
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#20
The key, or rather the "not key" , with modes is to keep one thing in mind -your tonal centre. If that changes from the major or minor tonic then you've got something modal. If it doesn't then you haven't.

This is where listening comes in, a lot of the time the guitarist doesn't get much say in how their music will function. If you're playing over an existing chord progression then boom, that's your tonality defined right there and nothing you play over it will change that fact. You can fight it all to like, but you still won't change it.

Borrowing a couple of notes from a mode over a particular chord isn't enough to change the tonic of a piece, neither is starting from or emphasising a different note in your melody. As a listener it takes your brain something like 7 seconds to "forget" a tonal centre and accept a new one, so unless the harmony does something radically different for around 7 seconds the listener is still going to be expecting that major or minor resolution.
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#21
Quote by TDKshorty


This article is pretty good.

Basically he explicitly point out that there's separate schools of thought on how modes should be used.

In "Modal Setting" he points out the traditional, technically correct way of using modes, along with a helpful guide for common modal "progressions".

In "Melodic Interchange" he basically summarises the most common misconception about modes. My problem with this part is that he never says "of course, you aren't playing modes, as the scale will always resolve to C.

In "Modal Interchange" he summarises CST (Chord-Scale-Theory). It's misnamed of course as "Modal Interchange" is the term associated with borrowing a chord from the parallel major.

Pitch Axis is a summary of pitch axis theory.
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#22
Anyways....back to my original question
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#23
Quote by TDKshorty
Anyways....back to my original question


If you haven't understood the answer, learn about harmonising the major and minor scales and how they relate to keys.
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